During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The Emperor of Evil!
I say wait for Xie to comment since they did SCOPES.
Wild Child
Okay, then. It looks like General Mireau is about to lose his CM flag. I've got just the label for his "former complete monster" label.
- Paths of Glory: General Paul Mireau (Was surprisingly fairly open-minded with Dax and Broulard, and actually accepts their advice to lower the number of men to be executed. He in particular decided to have only 3 men executed.)
And here's a clip for some context. (Just watch the first 4 minutes, and you'll see what I mean.)
RIP Toriyama
Ehhh I really don't like cutting Mireau on this tbh, I guess it could be enough of a redeeming quality, but he's still being a pompous, self-righteous asshole about "just" executing three completely innocent men, and is only doing so because Broulard (his superior officer) is pressuring him to be "reasonable", at which point Mireau pulls his usual "I'm a better person than I actually am" routine and acts like him lowering it to just three men be put on the chopping block makes him desirable of "justice."
I do not see Mireau being "surprisingly reasonable" in that scene. He's pouting like a child, sneering at Dax, and then when Broulard offers a compromise, he snarks off at Broulard, then Broulard shouts at Mireau to quit being obstinate so they can get things settled, and then a humiliated-looking Mireau tries to save face by pulling the "I just wanted justice, I suppose 3 men will be enough!"
I suppose the mere fact that he is only for going three when he has the chance to do more is like, kind of a slight Pet the Dog, but I do think the context of Mireau being a glory-seeking, self-righteous asshole who knows Broulard holds the power of promotion in the palm of his hand should be considered. When Mireau is all by his lonesome, he's horrifically abusing his men physically and verbally, throwing them into the line of fire, ordering them be fired upon for fleeing...yet when his superior officer is around pressuring him, then he suddenly becomes a swell enough guy to "settle" for three innocent men being executed just to satisfy his ego?
Maybe it is redeeming, but eh I don't really see it as such myself.
Edited by Ravok on Oct 12th 2021 at 10:52:59 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Okay that just sounds like he's a pompous prick.
Keep him.
Edited by miraculous on Oct 12th 2021 at 10:51:14 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Draftsman of Doom
Valid points on either side, but ultimately, Ravok has a point that Pragmatic Villainy does not affect credentials other than from a heinousness standpoint (which in this case, the candidate is heinous regardless).
Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 12th 2021 at 1:56:14 PM
Feels good, don't it?
Honestly leading keep as well... seems like an ego stroke like Preacher!God.
Lizzid people!
Yeah, seeing it put that way I'm just gonna abstain.
The Moron
Also inclined to lean keep now that it's laid out like that, but I also don't know the work so that's subject to change.
And now, since there were no objections, an EP!
What is the work?
A Rabbit Among Wolves - I've covered this fic before. Basically, we're back to RWBY, Jaune Arc is the leader of the White Fang alongside Sienna, and though he's originally trying to clear his own name, nowadays he's actually a loyal leader of Faunus rights. Eventually, he makes a deal with Junior Xiong and gets the location of a local crime den - and while his horrific expectations are already pretty clear, what they actually find inside is worse than he could have ever imagined.
Who is the Boss? What does he do?
Closest thing we get to a name, though if that changes in the future I'll be sure to let ya'll know.
The boss is the elderly leader of easily the most monstrous Jaune has met to date. The gang in question is an "entertainment" gang, with the entertainment in question being prostitution of all kinds. The gang recruits survivors from Grimm attacks outside of the kingdom, promising to bring them in with a great job and wage. In truth, they're enslaved for whatever nefarious purposes the gang wants, with many of them even being forcefully drugged until they're addicted to prevent them from running away.
Once they're in, pretty much anything that can be done to them is fair game. They're prostituted against their will, physically tortured for profit, any horrific thing that the buyers want is on the table. Yang finds one who was tied to a crucifix and his entire upper body is bleeding, Jaune finds another woman about to be raped (and her clothes have been taken away, so he has to give her his hoody), and Yang eventually finds the boss, standing over an unconscious and drugged prostitute trying to destroy evidence. Luckily, he's a Non-Action Big Bad, and though he swears the law will let him get off, Yang subdues him easily.
Not around long, but good god what this guy does...
Any mitigating factors? Freudian Excuse?
We get just enough of a personality from him that he's not a GDV - flat as fuck, but he's there. He's a cowardly weasel who's caught trying to destroy evidence, is at least partially personally involved in the operation (Yang finds him standing overtop a drugged prostitute), and spends his time in Yang's grasps furiously saying she won't get away with this cause he'll call the law on them, all while he futilely tries to smack her hands off of him. Other than that, none to speak of.
Is he heinous enough?
His victim count is way lower than Tanner's - we're talking maybe a few dozen victims versus Tanner's over a hundred - but Tanner has way more resources than him and what this guy does is fucking horrifying. Torture, sex slavery, forced drug addictions, he has pretty much every particularly heinous crime there is to his name. Hell, it's so heinous that Coeur himself, who doesn't like putting in a content warning to his works, put one in for the rape and brutality - and he didn't even do that for the chapter with a literal Attempted Rape in it. The answer is such an easy yes it's not even funny.
Final verdict?
God, yes - what about you?
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 12th 2021 at 2:36:24 PM
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Le Boss
Ravok actually voiced some concerns I had. I remember another character who was mentioned to tone down his cruelty based on advice he received, which I thought was potentially mitigating, but when I brought it up, it was said he just did it for the benefit of his political ambitions. Since it sounds like this is a similar case, I'm gonna say keep to Mireau for now.
to Boss
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Oct 12th 2021 at 11:34:27 AM
to the boss
for Baron Strucker, Baron Strucker, Batari, Felix, Jones, the Jones image, Kuroda Carla, Hans Gruber, the killer, Isaac, and the Boss.
Cut Victor and Mireau.
Boss
I'd argue keep Mireau based on Ravok's points, but I won't lose sleep if he does get cut.
Edited by nwotyzal on Oct 12th 2021 at 11:38:00 AM
The Emperor of Evil!
to Boss
Keep Mireau I guess.
About SCOPES, I haven't watched the series but right now I am skimming through the episodes where he appears and watching only his scenes and I found this scene here. In it SCOPES tries to murder Ira's family after the heroes have killed his minions and he says:
However, I am not sure if it's mitigating because he doesn't sound very sad or angry while he is saying it. He just takes a sadistic satisfaction and even bursts into evil laughter at the end. I still have some episodes to skim through and if I find something else that's mitigating, I will let you know (probably tomorrow).
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to the Boss.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
the Boss, and given Ravok's points, change to keep for Mireau.
The Draftsman of Doom
Boss
I think Alexei Dinoia from Tales of Vesperia should get cut.
- The supplementary manga (has a scanlation), The Empty Mask, shows that Alexei went through Motive Decay and gained a lust for power because his political enemies massacred most of his subordinates right in front of him. Admittedly, this is a weak Freudian Excuse considering that he has no problem sacrificing his subordinates like Schwann in the present. Plus, I'm not exactly sure how canon this manga is due to the plot changes in the updated versions of the game.
- Even discounting the manga, Alexei (in the dub) is horrified and calls himself the biggest fool of all when he realizes he unleashed the world-ending Adephagos. While this could be written off as Evil Versus Oblivion, he seems to show genuine guilt over unleashing it rather than other CM examples who are merely upset that a destroyed world would ruin their own plans.
Edited by Bugfragged on Oct 12th 2021 at 1:09:52 AM
Regarding Scopes:
I'm really busy this whole week, if you guys decide to make a decision without me pm me the results and I'll see if I agree or have a counterpoint.
Professor Gigachad
Do you have any counter to the specific Even Evil Has Loved Ones entry I brought up?
too busy to check right now
cut Mireau