To-do list:
- Merge Furry Webcomic and Furry Comic into UsefulNotes.Furry Fandom.
OP credits go to Amathieu 13
In terms of these two indices on their own, there isn't much of a difference between comic/webcomic and neither page is all that long to begin with, so I'm not sure why they are separated into two anyways. At a minimum, these two should be merged.
But if you consider the outcome of such a merge—Furry Works, essentially—it makes it clear that this would then be a duplicate with Popular with Furries. A likely counter argument is that "Popular with Furries includes works that weren't intended to be popular with furries but just are, often because they use World of Funny Animals, in addition to works explicitly created for furries. These indices are for works intentionally made for furries." But two things:
- differentiating between "what's intended" and "what's not" is hard without Word of God. In lieu of that requirement, people are seemingly using whether or not the work is set in a World of Funny Animals as a proxy to determine whether the work is in the furry "genre" or not. And because of that...
- in practice both Furry Comic and Furry Webcomics include works that aren't explicitly claimed to be created for furries, something that has been brought up at least once before on the Furry Webcomics discussion page [1]
, making the argument that intentional/unintentional is a meaningful difference moot.
To this second point, Fritz the Cat, The Adventures of Captain Jack, and Geronimo Stilton are all listed on Furry Comic.
- On Fritz the Cat's page, it's noted that it is considered a predecessor of the Furry Fandom, but that doesn't mean it was intentionally made to be a part of it; in fact, since the fandom didn't even exist, you could argue that it's impossible for it to have been.
- Nothing on Captain Jack's page even mentions being for furries and the only thing that seems to justify its inclusion is the anthropomorphic animal leads, similar to many Tex Avery MGM Cartoons which is likely part of its inspo since it also makes use of Slapstick.
- And Geronimo Stilton, being a children's series, almost certainly wasn't made for furries.
I'd personally label all 3 as misuse. But how we determine what qualifies as part of a "furry genre" and whether that's redundant with World of Funny Animals and Popular with Furries is exactly the issue. Way I see it, either these indices are just collections of comics and webcomics set in World of Funny Animals without having been intended to be furry works by the creator (which if then they should just be on that page) or these are works that are considered Popular with Furries because they are set in World of Funny Animals and/or have anthropomorphised animals in prominent roles, so they should be merged there.
Recommendation: If people disagree with my read on things re: in practice, these two aren't different from Popular with Furries or World of Funny Animals despite what they say, then I guess, we can just merge the two together. But if people agree
- Option 1: Cut both and move examples over to either Popular with Furries or World of Funny Animals
- Option 2: redirect both to one of the two.
- Option 3: Turn one of the pages into a disambig and redirect the other to it.
Personally prefer 1 over all, but any of the bottom 3 solutions are ok with me. As for which trope to move examples to if we cut or redirected, I'd rather it be to World of Funny Animals, since I actually don't get the tropeworthiness of Popular with Furries—is there any other niche community that we have an entire YMMV page dedicated to works that may appeal to them? That said, that's a critique for a separate thread. Either would be fine.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 18th 2023 at 5:34:39 AM
How sweet it is
I'll second a merge with World of Funny Animals.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
I do remember there was at one point a TLP draft specifically for works made by members of the furry fandom that weren't covered by either of these categories such as A Fox Tail, but I can't find it anymore for the life of me. My initial proposal was to create something akin to that, but maybe it'd be better to list such indexes under UsefulNotes.Furry Fandom.
I'd like to apologize for all this.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I agree with merging with World of Funny Animals.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
He/Him
Merge both with World of Funny Animals.
Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jul 14th 2023 at 2:36:43 AM
Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
I'd say there's enough furry comic publishers, such as Albedo Anthropomorphics, to justify keeping the Furry Comic index, possibly merging Furry Webcomics into it.
Edited by zarpaulus on Jul 14th 2023 at 6:10:48 AM
A merge of World of Funny Animals could work but I'm also surprised we don't have something like Furry Works index. I think that's something to consider, both pages do look like indexes to me.
Just stoic wisdom.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Furry Works as an index for things that are explicitly made for/by furries (so it doesn't stray into Popular with Furries's territory) makes sense to me.
I actually brought up the tropeworthiness (or lack thereof) of Popular with Furries not too long ago, for much the same reason as the OP. This, OTOH, does seem to be tropeworthy except insofar as it's too specific for no real reason. I'd support a merge with Furry Webcomics and broadening into Furry Works. I don't think World of Funny Animals fits because this is legitimately a self-applied descriptor.
Edited by nrjxll on Jul 14th 2023 at 11:10:14 AM
Yes, both pages are indexes, as was said in the OP.
I'm personally against an index for cataloguing "works created for furries" separate from Furry Fandom, if that's a thing we still want to even index. I prefer FernandoLemon's suggestion at the end of appending it to the useful notes page, not all that dissimilar from how we deal with genre pages.
"I don't think World of Funny Animals fits because this is legitimately a self-applied descriptor." So it's for this exact reason why I don't really like a Furry Works index. Our pages and indexes about works are based on the content that shows up in them, not by what is designated by the creator. A creator can say they made a horror film, but if that film has no tropes that are emblematic of the genre, would we group it with horror films? That's an extreme example, but it illustrates my overall concern with these indices. What should matter isn't what the creator says, but what's in the actual work itself IMO.
Which is kind of the crux of the issue. Outside of "some kind of animal to some level of anthropomorphization" shows up in any capacity in this work, there really isn't anything that is emblematic of "furry works" enough for it to be a genre. As you said, what gets included is anything that meets that single criteria, regardless of whether or not it was created to be that way or not.
Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 14th 2023 at 12:23:36 PM
I don't see how the Furry Works index idea violates that? I'd be a Works by Subject index similar to Alien Works, Ghost Fiction, Mummy Media, Ninja Fiction, Robot and A.I. Works, etc.
The only requirement for those indexes is that the work star or revolves around the subject, which in this case, would be anthropomorphic animals.
^See the ongoing convo on the utility of those kinds of indices where this thread idea originally came from [1]
But also that's incorrect because Furry Works would not be "work about X" but rather "work created by X".
I'd like to apologize for all this.
Ah, I wasn't aware there was a moratorium on this type of index. Not really sure how to discuss what to do with these two indexes properly until that's settled though.
There's a moratorium on creating new indices. That thread now is in the process of evaluating individual indices to see whether they are actually indexing a meaningful group and bringing indices to TRS if need be, ergo this thread.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Hooked a crowner for what to do with this.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
Not all furry works are set in a World of Funny Animals. They could fall anywhere on the Sliding Scale of Animal Cast other than 11, while World of Funny Animals would only be a 1 on the scale, as well as requiring that the animal characters live in a human-like society.
This isn't actually entirely true. We voted to keep Yuri Genre, despite widespread disagreement on whether there were any "essential" features differentiating it from non-Japanese lesbian works, largely on the basis of it being a consistently used term by works to describe themselves. And I used to argue extensively in Writer's Block that Young Adult Literature is purely a marketing concept with no required tropes whatsoever (not even necessarily young adult protagonists).
the Retromancer
Downvoting World of Funny Animals per what's said .
I'll repeat my question in the other post: do we need Furry Works to be its own page, or can we just merge the list onto UsefulNotes.Furry Fandom?
I'd like to apologize for all this.
the Retromancer
While I'd say yes, I think the Useful Note point is worth adding to the crowner.
@Zuxtron, I recommended World of Funny Animals as the target to move applicable examples to, because it was the most prevalent throughline I saw of the works listed on these two indices. Even on Sliding Scale of Animal Cast, World of Funny Animals is included in 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6. If other examples better fit other tropes like Mouse World (mentioned in 2, 3, 4) and Lions and Tigers and Humans... Oh, My! (5, 6, 7, 8, 9), then I don't see why examples can't be moved to those, too. Given that, a better worded option for the crowner would be "cut and relocate examples when appropriate to applicable tropes (World of Funny Animals, Mouse World, and Lions and Tigers and Humans... Oh, My!, etc).
& Reiterating what I said earlier, I also wouldn't mind that being a crowner option, personally.
Crown Description:
In terms of Furry Webcomic and Furry Comic on their own, there isn't much of a difference between comic/webcomic and neither page is all that long to begin with, so there have been concerns that they're redundant with each other, and there have been concerns that the two are redundant with World Of Funny Animals. What should be done with Furry Webcomic and Furry Comic?.
To-do list:
OP credits go to Amathieu 13
In terms of these two indices on their own, there isn't much of a difference between comic/webcomic and neither page is all that long to begin with, so I'm not sure why they are separated into two anyways. At a minimum, these two should be merged.
But if you consider the outcome of such a merge—Furry Works, essentially—it makes it clear that this would then be a duplicate with Popular with Furries. A likely counter argument is that "Popular with Furries includes works that weren't intended to be popular with furries but just are, often because they use World of Funny Animals, in addition to works explicitly created for furries. These indices are for works intentionally made for furries." But two things:
To this second point, Fritz the Cat, The Adventures of Captain Jack, and Geronimo Stilton are all listed on Furry Comic.
I'd personally label all 3 as misuse. But how we determine what qualifies as part of a "furry genre" and whether that's redundant with World of Funny Animals and Popular with Furries is exactly the issue. Way I see it, either these indices are just collections of comics and webcomics set in World of Funny Animals without having been intended to be furry works by the creator (which if then they should just be on that page) or these are works that are considered Popular with Furries because they are set in World of Funny Animals and/or have anthropomorphised animals in prominent roles, so they should be merged there.
Recommendation: If people disagree with my read on things re: in practice, these two aren't different from Popular with Furries or World of Funny Animals despite what they say, then I guess, we can just merge the two together. But if people agree
Personally prefer 1 over all, but any of the bottom 3 solutions are ok with me. As for which trope to move examples to if we cut or redirected, I'd rather it be to World of Funny Animals, since I actually don't get the tropeworthiness of Popular with Furries—is there any other niche community that we have an entire YMMV page dedicated to works that may appeal to them? That said, that's a critique for a separate thread. Either would be fine.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 18th 2023 at 5:34:39 AM
Macron's notes