Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I feel like a story can have it so you're supposed to be both impressed by a character and horrified by their actions. Paul Atriedes and Eren Yeager aren't supposed to be aspirational figures and their marked downturn in morality is played as negative but they aren't petty or sadistic like Walter White or Light Yagami are.
Basically what I saying is that the trope writeups do portray them as inherently aspirational, and in a way that is framed as objective.
That's just what I wanted to say, I won't push any more for this.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Gabby; it looks like there's enough evidence that she was willing to endanger innocent people to keep Jonah safe as a kid
I get where you're coming from Malginel but this is a particular aspect I think will ultimately fall under personal interpretation, rather than Paul (or Jessica) not meeting the trope's criteria and personally I am gonna give her a yes. Great job Rav!
I do think you raise a solid point Malginel. At the same time I disagree that there isn't an element of awe since the work is fantastic enough that I still think there's an undeniable element of coolness. Like if you were bringing up your argument in terms of The Wire with the political operatives or Oppenheimer with anybody who worked on the atom bomb I'd agree with you no-question. Those are highly-realistic works dealing with real world stuff that effects the world at large. In Dune though we have people who ride giant sandworms; people who can control other people with magic voices; a man who can see the past and future... There's enough distance from real-world stuff that I feel it's awe-inspiring enough.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Not the Eye
for Gabby.
What are the thoughts on this quote for Lord Shojo?
I'm having some hang ups over Jessica's MB status. She doesn't really start acting like a bitch or does anything magnificent until after she drinks the Water of Life. For the entire first movie and the beginning of the second, she's more of a reluctant, yet determined mother on the whims of the Bene Gesserit. Should her writeup be placed only in the second movie's YMMV page?
Ooh, nice quote.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
I like that quote
Jogo
Gabby and the Lord Shojo quote
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
I find the idea that we are supposed to root for an MB can be refuted by looking at how many examples are the Big Bad who you are supposed to root against; even if they are meant to be entertaining villains, the audience is still expected to want the heroes to beat them. The sheer amount of Rooting for the Empire that tends to happen anyway is an unintended reaction.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
I think the perspective is less that the villain is entertaining and likeable and more that from Malignel's perspective, Paul's actions are supposed to be horrifying as opposed to having the audience immediately think of him as an ingenious bastard. My problem is I feel you can do a balance of this. Makima, Eren Yeager and Gendo Ikari commit horrifying and blood-chilling crimes, but they're presented with grace and charisma in a way that still maintains the audience's attentions and makes them impressive even if grooming a 17-year old, committing genocide and regularly abusing your traumatized son aren't particularly magnificent actions.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Gabby and the Lord Shojo quote.
Here is my Kenji write up.
- Rush Hour 3: Kenji is Lee's adoptive brother and the leader of the Triads, having convinced Geneviève to become Shy Shen despite knowing that this would lead to her death. When Geneviève allies with Ambassador Han to reveal the names of the Triad heads, Kenji teams up with the corrupt Varden Reynard and personally snipes Han before he can reveal Shy Shen to the World Criminal Court, while having his men steal a letter Han sent to his Soo-Yung. Offering Lee and Carter a legit chance to walk away, Kenji engenders a situation to almost kill Lee and Carter by convincing them to save Geneviève, with the three barely surviving. Kidnapping Soo-Yung to force Lee to bring Geneviève to him, before forcing Lee to sword fight him all over the Eiffel Tower under threat of dropping Soo-Yung to her death. One of the few in the series to match Lee's skills and getting under his skin like no one else, Kenji ultimately proves to still love his brother, even sacrificing his life to save Lee from falling to his death.
Caesar
jjjj basically summed up my thoughts on Jessica/Paul being too disturbing to the audience and whatnot...as for her entry, I don't think it's worth separating her to just list her under Part 2. While she only cements her MB status in Part 2, she's nonetheless got moments of cleverness and moral ambiguity in Part 1 and I think it's fine to list her as such.
Edited by Ravok on Mar 19th 2024 at 11:45:44 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Been a moment since I've EP'd here and since I've got a couple upcoming who will be lengthy ones, here's a fairly short one for now?
What is the work?
The The Legend of Spyro is a trilogy of games within the Spyro franchise which is it's own continuity and follows the edgy trend of the mid 2000s — although it has a soundtrack that slaps. During the events of the second game: The Legend of Spyro: The Eternal Night, Spyro is out looking for Cynder who had left the Dragon Temple out of shame for her actions (said actions being mass murder and slavery whilst she was aware but couldn't do anything about it) in which Spyro suddenly drops onto the floor unconscious. Whilst unconscious Spyro wakes in a dream where he hears a disembodied voice, the voice belonging to a dragon simply called The Chronicler.
Who is The Chronicler and what has he done?
An ancient dragon, The Chronicler was once present during the rise of Malefor's training to become a prodigy and the new ushering of a new age for dragonkind, with The Chronicler noting down his story also being present during the construction of the dragon city of Warfang. After Malefor succumbed to his own megalomania, The unnamed dragon then somehow ended up taking the mantle of The Chronicler in which he resides within the White Isle recording the triumphs and failures of the current age.
In the second game proper, The Chronicler speaks to Spyro and pushes him to regain his elemental powers since he had lost them battling Cynder during the first game. To start it off, The Chronicler has a mental assault upon Spyro, pushing the young dragon to use the ability to slow down time itself to stop the noise. The Chronicler then awakens Spyro's fire elemental power and puts him through a trial (which for the player acts a tutorial to learn the elemental combat capabilities and mechanics.) At the end of the trial, The Chronicler commends Spyro but warns him about the approaching enemy and tells him to seek him out, showing him a vision of a tree locate in a grove.
After Spyro leaves the Dragon Temple after Gaul's raid, he follows the Silver River and ends up in the grove depicted in the vision. During the level, Spyro collapses and enters another dream in which The Chronicler awakens Spyro's ability of ice and has him go through a gauntlet, showing him the Well Of Souls and the first full appearance of Gaul. When Spyro reaches the rree, it's revealed to be a monster called Arborik who immediately attacks Spyro although the dragon prevails. This in turns leads to Spyro being captured by the Sky Pirate group known as the Skavengers who wanted Arborik as their combat champion although decide Spyro will do just fine.
After going through one of the Skavenger gladiator arenas, Spyro yet again collapses into a dream where the Chronicler grants him the Earth ability and puts him through another Gauntlet, showing him the Well of Souls at the end and explaining about the incoming Night Of Eternal Darkness and tells him to meet him at the White Isle. At the end of the Sky Pirate arc, Spyro has another collapsing dream where he learns the ability of electricity and sees a vision of Cynder being dragged to Gaul who's gloating about the return of Malefor and how she'll die upon his release.
Waking up on the edge of the White Isle, Spyro pushes through in which you see the various traps and gauntlets The Chronicler has set up to keep his secluded home within the Celestial Caves safe. The level puts Spyro through everything he learns via his elemental abilities and ends with him facing an entity resembling Cynder's corrupted form. When the creature is defeated, Spyro reaches the Chronicler himself. Dialogue exchanges happen with The Chronicler showing Spyro Malefor's descent into villainy and how his return is imminent due to him being the only being powerful enough to break free from the Well Of Souls during the Eclipse whereas other spirits are merely allowed to wonder.
This is why The Chronicler brought Spyro here, to grant him safety from the incoming darkness. When Spyro balks about the fates of everyone else and Cynder being at the Well Of Souls, The Chronicler warns Spyro about the evil that lurks in that place but ultimately concedes and grants Spyro a way to the Well Of Souls to save Cynder. After Spyro kills Gaul, causing the mountain to collapse on itself, Spyro, Cynder and Sparx are trapped with death imminent. Spyro though remembers The Chroniclers words of why he had him to the White Isle
This has Spyro use his time ability to encase them in crystal as the mountain collapses around them, ending the second game. The Chronicler narrates over the game in the post credits scene, saying that the world's changing that it's only hope lies within Spyro and that he has allies awaiting him for when he awakens, with the shot showing Hunter in the foreground.
The Chronicler only has two appearances in Dawn Of The Dragon, firstly appearing to reactivate Spyro and Cynder's abilities after being in stasis for 3 years and he then appears at the end of the game, granting Ignitus the moniker as the new Chronicler as his time was up since there was a new age with him peacefully disappearing in a form of light.
Is he magnificent?
Personality wise? Easily, Martin Jarvis delivers a calm and soothing performance with The Chronicler sprouting wisdom and guidance for Spyro.
As for planning? The Chronicler has a major thing in his favour: he's not against Malefor directly. Malefor is the resident chessmaster who has both ally and enemy in his grip with no setbacks to his plans and ultimately does win albeit for a short while but only because Spyro was the only other one who could combat him.
The Chronicler's plan wasn't to stop Malefor from being released, he outright saw it's written in destiny but he does know Spyro is the one who can stop it in the end so sets him up to get to the White Isle to be granted safety whilst also awakening his powers and putting him through various trials in the dream sequences with culminates in the elemental gauntlet in the White Isle which The Chronicler set up to keep unwanted forces from his home. Despite being a firm believer in destiny, which considering the guy literally writes the events of time makes sense, he's not narrow minded and self centered since when Spyro protests about the fate of Cynder being left in the Well Of Souls at Malefor's mercy, he calmly accepts Spyro to choose his own fate and grants him passage to there and it's his reasoning that makes Spyro realise how to survive the collapsing mountain..
Is he a bastard?
It's murky but it's enough. The Chronicler's elemental trials do contain hazards which can hurt Spyro and he even deems the entity he has guarding his home a necessary evil (for context it takes the form of what it's challenger fears the most.) The amount The Chronicler has Spyro through such as the Sky Pirate arc and leading him to the tree which was secretly a giant monster is also bastardy enough.
The Chronicler also says he fears for the safety of the others but only had Spyro embark on the journey to the White Isle without informing Spyro about the true reasoning behind it until he's there when he could've had them all come along to it for safety. It's not portrayed as malicious intent as The Chronicler literally records the triumphs and failures of every age and Spyro's the only one who's able to stop Malefor when he's released. He has disdain for general malice and cruelty as he regard Gaul as a hideous creature. So there's murky bastardness but nothing Kick the Dog worthy.
Final Verdict?
Unsure, your call folks!
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Think I'm good giving a for the Chronicler.
Gabby.
It's been a while since I've been on here, but I got this from a short I recently saw.
Leeds is a short horror film on Youtube, very very loosely based on The Jersey Devil. It's a pretty simple story about a young boy named Henry, who works for his pushy and controlling grandfather in deforesting the woods of Leeds Point, in the Pine Barrens of New Jersey. This despite Henry being a bit of a nature lover and a tree-hugger.
Of course it wouldn't be a Pine Barrens story if it's most infamous resident, the Jersey Devil itself...even if it is an In Name Only take on the creature and legend. Anyways, it isn't long before Henry encounters the Jersey Devil, who notices Henry's situation and offers the boy a way out.
Who is The Jersey Devil ? What does it do ?
The infamous monster or demon said to haunt the Pine Barrens, the Jersey Devil is first brought up to Henry by a worker in his grandfather's logging company. Unlike most portrayals however, the Jersey Devil doesn't appear as an animalistic or draconic monster it's usually thought of as. Instead, it is a forest spirit taking the form of a woman in white with inhuman eyes.
The being is blamed for setting fires in the area, burning many loggers and their families out of their homes. Henry is a lot more sentimental towards the forest than his disgruntled and abusive grandfather; one night while the man is losing his temper at Henry, the boy bludgeons his grandfather unconscious before running into the Pine Barrens. There the Jersey Devil herself approaches Henry.
The Jersey Devil explains she understands his sentiments. She has Henry see a vision, explaining to him that she is setting the fires in the area, but it's to replenish the forest. She's also seen Henry's situation with his grandfather, and offers him a way out...by having Henry kill the man. Henry refuses of course, and she takes this in stride...but convinces Henry he can't find his way home that night, and has him sleep by a tree. Unbeknownst to Henry, she goes to his grandfather's cabin behind his back, and burns the place down with the man inside.
The next morning, she approaches Henry again to give him the bad news of his grandfather's death, but tells him that he now has the freedom he wants. While ostensibly reassuring him, the Jersey Devil convinces Henry that he can now help the forest thrive, talking the boy into joining her. The short ends with the Jersey Devil and Henry overlooking a group of loggers and preparing to set another fire...
Is she Magnificent ?
The short is ten minutes, so while she isn't that spectacular, I think she makes it. For a forest spirit, she is a charming and manipulative being, ostensibly seeking to help a boy escape an abusive grandfather while talking him into her side...which she does so by killing said grandfather.
While she is the one setting the fires, she explains she has a Gaia's Vengeance angle to her arsons, and doesn't try to harm the boy, but convinces him to see her way of thinking. Her portrayal is that of a creepy but charming trickster trying to protect the forest, and manipulating a kid into following her.
Is she a Bitch or too much of one ?
While a Well-Intentioned Extremist, she's also a mass arsonist who regularly sets forest fires and burns the homes of loggers. And while she may have some concern for Henry, she's still manipulative; her way of "helping" him is to encourage the boy to kill his grandfather.
And while she doesn't force Henry to do so when he refuses, she goes and does so behind his back, passing it off as a "happy accident". And while Henry's grandfather was a hard ass and implied abuser, the short ends with her taking Henry to set another fire on a group of loggers, whose "crimes" are just doing their jobs.
Conclusion
Decent keeper. Curiously enough, while this is In Name Only to The Jersey Devil as commonly depicted, there is a similarity here with the Lenape mask spirit, M'sing, which is thought of as a similar "Protector of the forest" spirit, and may have been a proto-basis of the current Jersey Devil — though I don't know if that was intentional on the creator's part.
There's also another but unrelated Humanoid Abomination take on The Jersey Devil, which I considered for the CM Thread.
Edited by Beast on Mar 18th 2024 at 4:19:07 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to the Chronicler and the Jersey Devil.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Chronicler and the Jersey Devil
I’ve got a really fun one coming up tomorrow afternoon
Edited by LarryT on Mar 18th 2024 at 5:03:10 AM
In honor of Akira Toriyama
Chronicler
for the Jersey Devil.
- Chrono Trigger Fan Game Prophets Guile: Magus is a sorcerer displaced in time from the Kingdom of Zeal who intends to kill Lavos by any means necessary. Upon his botched summoning bringing him back to his original time period, Magus realizes he has another chance to kill Lavos and immediately acts upon it. Disguising himself as a prophet, he uses his knowledge of the future to climb Queen Zeal's ranks and eliminate any obstacle to his plans. Using his position to get rid of the Three Gurus, Magus successfully gets Gaspar and Belthasar to flee the kingdom while he imprisons Melchior in ice on Mount Woe. Being assigned to oversee the finishing touches over the Ocean Palace, he is ambushed by Dalton but manages to fend him off and tear out his eye, warning him not to cross him again lest he lose his chance at immortality.
Caesar
Yes to the Chronicler and Jersey Devil
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Caesar
Bumpity
Edited by Ravok on Mar 18th 2024 at 9:29:02 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Edit: On the pedestal bit I don't mean a badge of honor, I mean that the trope, how it portrays the characters in the writeup, puts them on a pedestal.
Edited by Malginel on Mar 16th 2024 at 11:20:24 AM