Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Caesar
Got another from Scraggle to throw up real quick, hailing from the Analog Horror series vintage eight, specifically the story The Children Under the House...
What have the Clarks done?
- Mr. and Mrs. Clark seem to be a perfectly normal and friendly elderly couple. The two of them owned a cute little diner called the Burger Shack in the small town of Cate’s Crossing called the Burger Shack before they moved out, sold the Shack to new owners and left Cate’s Crossing to live the RV life. A family named the Daniels—father Adam, mother Carol, teenage son Dean, and seven-year-old daughter Jess—moved into the Clarks’ old house. Not soon after, Jess starts seeing “imaginary friends” that take the form of dead children…
- Jess is brought into therapy to see Dr. Julia Luu (the child counselor from whose perspective this takes place) and the two begin a series of interviews that shed more light on these “imaginary friends.” Jess has names for all of them, and claims they can’t leave the basement of the house. Some of them are friendly; others are scarier; all of them only remember bits and pieces of their final moments. Among them:
- “Shelly was scared until they gave her some medicine. But it was too much. Then she woke up under the house.”
- ”Wendy remembers being dead before she died. Being dead was supposed to be freedom. But it was another trap, another prison.”
- “Zak doesn't remember his family. Every day was blurry until the last day. Zak was stuffed in a fireplace after his neck broke.”
- “Brad is the oldest. He was some place dark for a long time. They forgot him and he died. He thinks his body is still where they left it.”
- "Mark remembers running. But he didn't get far. The last thing he remembers is a loud bang. Then he woke up under the house."
- “"Kate is the scariest one under the house. She has a hand for every hand that hurt her." (Kate’s ghost is covered in writhing, groping hands)
- Mia, Jess’ best friend, was in the trunk of a car when it crashed, killing both her kidnappers and her
- Using Jess’ terrifyingly detailed descriptions of the ghost children, Julia does a little digging and connects all these names to missing child cases going back as far as a decade, among dozens of other missing child cases across four parishes. Things get worse when Adam Daniels is suddenly murdered right outside his own house by a mysterious masked man. Julia gets a phone call after the Daniels try to leave Cate’s Crossing, and she goes to check up on them…
- Cue her being taken at gunpoint by the Clarks. At this point all the dots have been connected: using the Burger Shack as a front, the Clarks were the masterminds behind a child trafficking scheme responsible for all the missing child cases Julia looked into.
- Purely for profit, the Clarks had kids, some as young as 8 years old, systematically kidnapped for years and kept caged under the diner, constantly drugged on heroin to keep them helpless to resist them. The Clarks pimped these kids out to sadistic pedophiles to suffer all manner of horrible abuses; at least thirteen children died because of this horrible “business,” and dozens more remain unaccounted for. All the ghosts under the house are the children who the Clarks had killed, unable to pass on and perpetually reliving their final moments.
- Now—having already murdered Adam in an effort to scare his family off the property and away from the scene of their crimes—the Clarks take Julia and the entire Daniels family hostage, planning to murder them all (even little Jess) and then burn the house down to destroy the evidence. Julia tricks the Clarks into giving a self-pitying Motive Rant, during which she goads them into revealing the names of all the children they killed. This turns out to be enough to jog the memories of the amnesiac ghosts, who promptly converge on the Clarks as they plead for mercy.
"The children ripped the Clarks apart then dragged every piece back into the shadows. They left nothing. Not even blood.”
- Ultimately, only Julia and the surviving Daniels ever find out about the true nature of the Clarks, and the Daniels move out of Cate’s Crossing after one final goodbye to Julia, but in her final session with Jess it’s revealed that with the Clarks dead, the children have moved on from under the house, into the afterlife.
- So this is actually part of a Shared Universe all produced under the YouTube channel “Vintage Eight.” Most of the antagonists in this ‘verse don’t count because they’re eldritch horrors with inscrutable morality or simple redeeming qualities. The Clarks have none of that. They’re entirely human monsters who corner a sickening niche not tapped by any other character in the Vintage Eight universe.
- I don’t think I need to repeat just how godawful the details of their child trafficking scheme is; while the worst details are kept tastefully tacit, there’s easily enough visual evidence to illustrate every horrific experience the kids were forced to endure (particularly with stuff like Kate having “a hand for every hand that hurt her,” which is one of the most terrifyingly understated means of depicting a victim of sex trafficking I’ve seen in a piece of fiction).
- Nothing. Although they’re a married couple, they never really demonstrate any love or even affection for each other at any point, or any connection at all beyond their total lack of any human decency. They have the gall to claim they never hurt any children themselves and that they’re “not monsters” but Julia throws this right back in their face: “"You knew what kind of monsters you were feeding them to. "And that makes you worse.""
- Interestingly they also subvert But for Me, It Was Tuesday—it’s even the plot point that leads directly to their death—but for this to actually be redeeming, they’d need to demonstrate they’re actually guilty. They never do. When Julia goads them into their Motive Rant, they absolve themselves of any moral responsibility whatsoever, and they victim-blame the Daniels for their own impending familicide.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Clarks
Goku Black
So Baldurs Gate 3. Their actually is one more candidate I was thinking is worth a shot upon rewatching and replaying. That was missed. The last of the major villains not discussed.
Who is Raphael?
A Cambion fiend, meaning the offspring between a fiend and a mortal, Raphael is the son of Mephistopheles, one of the most powerful archdevil in the Nine Hells. Dwelling upon the first layer of Avernus in the House of Hope where he entices his victims, Raphael presents himself to the P Cs as a potential savior to remove the Illithid tadpoles within their heads. His true intent is to reclaim the fabled Crown of Karsus which he plots to use to make himself all powerful.
Raphael is a broker in favors, but he also doesn't play remotely fair with his contracts. He appears to potential Debtors at their lowest and will happily cheat them to keep them enslaved, drag them down and brutally torture them forever. And when I say he cheats, he bargained with one to destroy the army of Kethric Thorm's group of Dark Justicars, but to enslave the fighter Yurgir to him, he had him wipe out all but one of the Dark Justicars, before trapping Yurgir and not letting him fulfill the contract. Raphael is also not averse to trapping and tricking children to selling their souls to him, which we see in the House of Hope.
Raphael is revealed to keep another character hostage, the sister of Korilla Heartflame named "Hope." He has also transcribed her tortures with it heavily implied to include rape. Raphael is an intense narcissist who revels in having others sexually submissive to the point his father's spy against him is an incubus who resembles himself, so he delights in breaking the minds of others to be unable to resist in any way.
Raphael plays the devil on the shoulder to sow discord and death so he can locate the Crown of Karsus and harness its power. Should he succeed, he takes over the Nine Hells and demands fealty from the other archdevils, turns the heroes into submissive slaves and proceeds to invade every plane with an unstoppable legion of devils, promising to visit the player's room soon...
Should the player not take Raph's bargains at th end, he expresses a desire to steal their souls and torture them forever, prompting a duel in the House of Hope. Raphael is struck down after singing his own villain song during the fight. As the battle takes place in Hell, Raphael is slain forever in his own plane.
Mitigating issues?
Raphael has nothing good to him. So we have determined before this that devils are fully capable of standards and even love (Such as Asmodeus himself). Raphael is an ambitious little guy even by their standards and his actions are pretty wholly awful from torture, the way he treats his debtors, mass torture, claiming the souls of children and a complete mass invasion of the planes by devils at the ends.
Raphael acts like a charming fellow but it's a mask for the narcissistic sadist he is underneath it. He cares for nothing but himself. His father doesn't trust him at all while Raphael is only too happy to demand his dad submit to him or die. His care for Haarlep is only based on Haarlep being a sex toy and a plaything while Haarlep resembles him. Haarlep doesn't even like Raphael and just laughs at the very motion Raphael is even decent in bed.
Conclusion?
Raphael is I think a keep.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
What about heinousness? We've got 5 keepers already (plus that Ax-Crazy one who was cut for, I think, loving her grandfather).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Not the Eye
to Clarks and Raphael
Switch ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Brewer
Okay one I have flip floped for some time and with newest AIN keeper decided to give a try. From Forbidden Worlds issue 52 story “The Girl in the Grotto”
Who is Genly? What has she done?
Member of human looking, green skined species with amazing powers who lived on Earth over 500 000 years ago, Genly was the witch doctor in her tribe. However she used her powers for evil. Her people cauch her, however they didn’t believe in execution, so they gave her a drug which put her in perpetual sleep and she was sealed in underwater cave.
Eventually her slumbering body was discovered. Proffesor Harley Mellon took her from cave and brought her to his laboratory. Genly was freed and faked amnesia, destroying almost all tablets that could reveal the truth about her. Genly manipulated and seduced proffesor’s ambitious assistant Jim Edwards, promising him the world, using him to sneak into Atomic Energy Commision in Washington to learn where H-bombs are kept.
Genly and Jim break where bombs are being kept, her plan being to drop a bomb in Europe and provoke atomic war beetwen Earth’s nations. Genly will give them choice, give her supreme authority and she will stop it, or refuse her and die. While on plane Genly reveals she intends to let Jim die in the mission while she escapes, using her powers to hipnotise him into unfeling slave to carry out the plan. However Proffesor was able to dechipher remaining tablets and warn goverment about Genly, causing them to shot down the plane on Middle of the atlantic. Genly tries to escape, planning to start all over, but plane falls directly on her and nuclear explosion kills her.
Reddeming qualities?
Nope. Innocent amnesiac Maiden is just a act and even before revealing that she intends to dispose of Jim she treats him more as a lackey than as partner.
Heinous standard?
So reason I was somehow unsure on her it that “cause nuclear holocaus” was also threaten by wax figure Adolf Hitler. However Genly has two things going for her, cause nuclear war is, from over hundreds stories I have read, attempted only by those two, second she also has nasty personal touch of seducing Jim before hypnotising him and leaving him to die.
Conclusion?
Gonna say yes for rarity of crime and personal touch.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Dec 7th 2023 at 1:57:49 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to her.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Honestly. More than bad enough.
Full scale invasion of every plane is an insane reach, torture, child murder.
The sex predator thing is also pretty unique. Among devils only Belhefwit and Mephisto (under a single author) do it.
He isnt even the boss of one of the nine circles like zariel or Mephisto is. So is weaker than the top dogs.
Genly
Edited by miraculous on Dec 7th 2023 at 12:32:23 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Genly and Raphael the rapper
Insert title here
Regarding the Clarks, I have a question. When confronted, Mr. Clark says that they remember the names and faces of every kid they trafficked, saying you never forget something like that, implying that at least he was on some level haunted by what he did?
Raphael, Genly
Switch to Brewer
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Alright, sure to Raph.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Raphael (what a wonderful voice this character has!), Genly and the Clarks.
Caesar
Yes to Raphael
Ehh the Clarks are just being self-pitying scumbags at the end for me, they whine that none of it is their fault and they "remember the names and faces of the kids", but they're always called out after each excuse as just trying to justify themselves when the truth is simply that their own selfish greed lead them to sell children to be tortured, raped and murdered. They never once show genuine remorse or anything approaching it; they just try to Faux Affably Evil justify "We're not monsters." while describing how they sex trafficked children. I don't see it as anything truly redeeming.
Edited by Ravok on Dec 7th 2023 at 1:20:02 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Goku Black
the Clarks
Showtime!
to Raph and the Clarks
Here’s the next EP from The Bill, one of two I am E Ping tonight from series 15 (1998). This one is from the episode “Age Of Chivalry” and is another Serial Rapist candidate, though a particularly nasty one.
DI Frank Burnside returns to Sunhill with his investigative team to track down an utterly brutal Serial Rapist operating in the region along with his driver. At the beginning of the episode another woman called Kirsty has just been discovered, badly beaten and violated, just like 3 others. This most recent victim went to a restaurant prior to the rape and recognises her rapist as one of the serving staff there. Tracking him down, this leads them to a woman hating sociopath called…
Who is he?
Craig Sutton. A young man still living with his parents and working as a waiter, Craig strongly desires to be a man’s man. To get back at women for rejecting and belittling him, Craig decides to enact a brutal serial rape spree across Sunhill.
What has he done?
Friends with a man named Murray who he works with (and having an affair with Murray's girlfriend as well), Craig decides to manipulate Murray to provide him with his car for his rape spree as Craig is unable to drive. The easily led Murray agrees to the plan, and Craig soon picks their first victim in a nightclub after the woman asks for a lift home in Murray’s car. Fooling about with them as they pretended to drive her home, the woman suddenly changed her mind and tried to get away only for Craig to brutally beat her and force Murray to gang rape her alongside him.
Loving the experience, Craig decided to ramp up his brutality in his following attacks. Forcing Murray to be the driver, the two men would pretend their car had broken down at night, only to ambush passing women. Craig would then place a hood over their head, brutally beat them up and then rape them at knifepoint, with the experience outright being compared to torture. Their spree lasted until their latest victim, Kirsty, led the police to the wine bar where the two men worked and identified Craig as her rapist.
Arrested, Craig proved to be an arrogant and evasive interviewee, outright taunting the police at numerous points. Moving to cover his tracks, Craig had Murray hide their car in his family garage, and upon being released due to lack of evidence attempted to bludgeon Murray to death and then stole the car himself to dispose of it despite being unable to drive. Craig is then caught again, but not before driving the car into the river to destroy all the forensic evidence.
Confident he has escaped all justice, Craig taunted Burnside one final time leading to the infuriated Burnside arresting him. Unfortunately for Craig, his luck finally comes to an end when his mother, unable to bear that her son committed outright serial rape, decides to give the police the clothes he was wearing the night he raped Kirsty after previously hiding them. Burnside informs Craig of this in the interview to wind him up. Craig immediately realizes he will now be sent down for the rapes. Cursing his mother as a STUPID BITCH!! Craig then reveals the depths of his misognyny with the following Villainous Breakdown:
Craig: THEY DON'T HAVE A VERY HIGH OPINION OF ME! SOME OF THE WOMEN I HAVE TO SERVE THEY TREAT ME LIKE DIRT! NO PLEASE, NO THANK YOU, NOTHING!
Burnside: Bit like the way you treat your mum?
Craig: NO THAT'S COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!\\
Craig: WHAT?! YOU THINK TWENTY PENCE ON THE TABLE IS A SIGN OF THEIR RESPECT??!! IT'S LIKE ONE MINUTE YOU EXIST, THE NEXT MINUTE YOU DON'T! OH, YOU'RE STILL HERE ARE YOU?! WELL YEAH I AM ACTUALLY, AND MY SPITS STILL IN YOUR SOUP OF THE DAY YOU UPPITY LITTLE BITCH!
Heinous Standard?
To be up front about this: Craig doesn’t have the highest victim count within his niche. The other that is currently up, Simon Higgins, has a victim count of 10 and there is another rapist from series 16 (who doesn't qualify) who has about 15. But what Craig lacks in victim count he more than makes up for in absolute brutality. In all the episodes I’ve watched Craig is hands down the single most brutal Serial Rapist I’ve seen. The episode REALLY emphasis the absolute torture he put his victims through and there is special emphasis given to the sheer horror of his method, with PC Garfield openly calling this one of the worst rape cases he has ever seen.
Another way in which Craig really stands out is resources. Simon Higgins has open access to drugs and nearly all of the other Serial Rapist’s that I have seen have something which enables them to have easy access to victims, such as the other rapist from Series 16 with a bodycount of 15 who has special combat training and an entire bunch of military equipment at his disposal. Another Serial Rapist candidate who I will also be E Ping in future from series 17 likewise has an entire empty house to use and access to tons of money. Craig literally has nothing. He’s a waiter who can’t even drive and only has access to a knife. Given that, Craig stands out hard for the sheer amount of damage he is able to do with almost no resources at all.
Given all that then? Craig makes it.
Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse?
There’s a bit to cover but nothing that holds up.
Whilst he IS shown to have parents who he relies on he shows no care at all for either of them. His relationship with his father can be best described as indifferent and it’s strongly implied during his final rant that he’s outright abusive towards his mother.
Now, after having an affair with Murray’s girlfriend who subsequently becomes pregnant and has a baby, he does regularly call her to see if the baby is his, but this isn’t played for sympathy at all. Craig doesn’t even see women as people and it’s more played as him deeming the baby his “property”, to the point where it’s implied he outright threatened her when she began barring him from access. Pass.
Conclusion?
Yes to this incel.
Edited by Atlantis1930 on Dec 10th 2023 at 2:43:02 PM
for the Clarks
for Raphael. Wanting to wage war agains the other planes, nuff said.
for Genly
Not the Eye
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
To Raphael, Genly, and Craig
Goku Black
Craig
Insert title here
Clarks then
Woagh
to Dr. Doom, Galactus, Raphael, The Ice King, Genly and The Clarks.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Since it's not played sympathetically, I'll lean yes to Craig, but how many victims does he have? If it's like 5 or more, fine; if it's like 3, I'm not sure the brutality is enough.
Why doesn't the Series 16 guy count?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
4 brutal, prolonged rapes plus one attempted murder (may have been succesful as we don't hear from Murray again afterwards).
He's the guy I talked about previously who was raped himself and was traumatised as a result, and upon being reminded of it bursts into tears.
Edited by Atlantis1930 on Dec 7th 2023 at 10:32:11 AM
Sounds good to me. Thanks!