Complete Monster Cleanup

Yo, Thistleclaw. Funny story. That's legit just how he is in actual book canon, so even if he did count (which he doesn't, trust me, series has a fucked up heinous standard by kid's books standards) he'd count for the actual books and not a random fanfic.

Anyway, yeah, cut it. Just popping in to give my two cents on the matter.

I was about to do the swaps; looks like they've already been done.

Was ASOIAF fully good to go though?

I think the Bloodstone Emperor entry needs a bit of work. He seems to fit, but there are a few things in that entry that aren't well supported by the source:

I don't think that we can call the stone and the church "evil" with the information we have, and the entry stands perfectly well without calling either of them evil. In fact, I think that we can easily take off the entire mention of the church, it adds nothing to his qualifications.

I'm about to go to work, and will only be on mobile, so if someone has time, please add the entries at Midsomer Murders to the episode YMMV pages if you can.

That's fair

Alright, I had my first CM proposal, time for my first CM removal. Because, after watching his episodes, this guy should go in my eyes.

• Rat King started as the smug scientist Dr. Victor Falco. The Turtles first meet him while investigating the disappearance of another scientist, with Falco seeming very friendly. However, it is soon revealed that Falco himself kidnapped his colleague, mutating him into a gorilla creature. After his initial defeat by the Turtles, Falco becomes disgusted with humanity, adopts the name Rat King, and seeks to have his rats take over the city by driving the humans away. Rat King also mind rapes Splinter several times, to break his spirit and turn him into his slave. After another defeat, Rat King later returns, kidnapping several civilians, planning to experiment on them and turn them into human rat hybrids. His first attempt results in a deformed and immobile creature in constant pain, though he continues despite that. Also, despite his supposed kinship with his rats, he has no problem experimenting on them and is willing to sacrifice them to gain an advantage over one of his enemies.

Now, it's undeniable that unlike most incarnations, this Rat King is (for the most part) a major hypocrite who has no problems with nearly any of his Rats being sacrificed. However, I do feel there is one rat he does genuinely care for-that being Aristotle, the white rat on his shoulder Splinter kicked off a cliff in their last confrontation. While this point is addressed in his EP, with it stating he was only pissed off due to loosing a valuable minion, I feel there's more than that for a variety of reasons.

• First of, he calls Aristotle by his name. He doesn't say "my eyesight!" or a simple "no!", he calls out his name in worried voice while rushing to the ledge. That's admittedly probably not an automatic cut, but its definitely concerning to say the least.

• Second of all, he sticks around near the ledge for a few extra seconds, looking down futilely, despite having a fight with Splinter. This is admittedly the weakest point, but it does kinda add more to the feeling it had an effect on him.

• Third of all, and this is where the real kickers start coming in, he promises to make Splinter pay. It shows the fight got personal and he wants vengeance for Aristotle's death. Also, this is a unique reaction for him-he never promises this after the Turtles blow up his rats, or after he makes them swarm over the pit, so it doesn't seem to be his default reaction to loosing useful minions. His voice sounds pretty bitter as well.

• Fourth of all, and this is the biggest point in my opinion, he outright states he can see through Splinter's eyes. Firstly, this shows he didn't loose much that could aid him with the fight when Aristotle got kicked over, "just" Aristotle himself. Secondly, even if he did, he basically says Aristotle's death did no damage to his vision, showing he's not particularly concerned about that. So yeah, basically leaves the only possible reason to try and get revenge is because it was Aristotle specifically that got killed. And he doesn't say it in a shruggy-off tone that says "Oh wait, I don't care Aristotle fell", he basically says it in a way stating he can still make Splinter pay and never shrugs of Aristotle dying.

• Fifth of all, to add extra salt, his vision through Splinter seems to have been fairly good, as judging by his reactions previously and when Splinter blindfolds himself, Rat King expected to be able to fight him and figure out Splinter's position.

• Sixth, the rats are autonomous entities, even when Rat King sees through them or otherwise influences them-Aristotle talks to Rat King, the Giant ones attack the turtle's independently, and Splinter seems to have some of his mind still left in his brainwashed state. So it's not like he's mourning an object or something.

• Seventh, Rat King acts kinda chummily with Aristotle throughout the show, even showing a bit of favoritism. He talks to him as if he's a person, does listen to him, and never swaps him out for any other rat-its always him on the shoulder.

This is, I should say, never subverted, though that's to be expected given its so small and in the literal last minute of his life. And with all these points combined, especially the third and/or fourth ones (where he is affected by his death and dismisses loosing one source of vision as a concern of his), I can't just chalk it up to pragmatism.

So, is Rat King a massive Hate Sink and Hypocrite? Yes. Does he genuinely care for one of his 36 million rats? Also yes. So with that, even though I can see why many thought he kept and expect (though not hope) this to be controversial, I say cut Rat King/Dr. Victor Falco.

Edited by Purgatoryisof2 on Dec 13th 2022 at 11:30:34 AM

Not familiar with this show, but based on what you have written, Rat King seems like a cut if he really calls Aristotle by name, stares after him for a few seconds after his fall and promises to make the heroes pay.

Edited by WatTambor on Dec 13th 2022 at 6:13:06 PM

Rat King does sound like a cut with the relationship to his lead rat there.

Re: Bloodstone; Tbh the only change necessary, if the thread deems it such, is changing "an evil stone" to "a black stone". I'd dispute the text isn't making it clear enough via implication but if the diction is deemed to be a problem that's the only change I see necessary. I did refer to the religion as "sinister", which the posted text block shows is the same adjective the book uses.

Here's a clip of his reaction to Aristotle's fall for a more visual aid.

Found another video at 21:06 with the reaction where he indeed says to Splinter that he can still see through his eyes after saying "you will pay for that" (Splinter eventually defeats him, but this does suggest that the Rat King doesn't think he needs Aristotle to beat Splinter at the moment). Also, his tone where he screams "Aristotle" does sound worried.

This is not much, but I am strongly leaning towards cut.

Edited by WatTambor on Dec 13th 2022 at 8:28:27 PM

That seems like a cut-and-dry chop. I watched the linked clip and his reaction to the rat's death is very clear grief and anger.

Edited by Scraggle on Dec 13th 2022 at 10:20:11 AM

Cut.

@Bloodstone: It still adds nothing. It's an example of Complete Monster, we ought to list the things that make him fit the trope and the religion adds no information regarding his qualifications. It's Word Cruft in a Complete Monster entry.

I'm going to leave these two entries for people to vote on if you feel so strongly their inclusion detracts from the point of the entry:

• Yi Ti/YiTish Mythology: The Bloodstone Emperor is the jealous second son of the semi-divine Opal Emperor. Murdering his own older sister, the Amethyst Empress, to take power over the paradisaical Great Empire of the Dawn, the Bloodstone Emperor begins worshipping a black stone and marked his rule with mass murder and enslavement, feasting on the flesh of man and taking to practicing torture and dark magic. So atrocious is the mass sin at the tyrant's hands that the benevolent Goddess, ancestor to the Bloodstone Emperor himself, leaves the world in peril to eradicate the latter's empire. Though his tyrannical regime fell in the following dark age, the Bloodstone Emperor's influence lingers still as followers of his sinister religion still practice his twisted teachings to present day.

• Yi Ti/YiTish Mythology: The Bloodstone Emperor is the jealous second son of the semi-divine Opal Emperor. Murdering his own older sister, the Amethyst Empress, to take power over the paradisaical Great Empire of the Dawn, the Bloodstone Emperor begins worshipping a black stone and marked his rule with mass murder and enslavement, feasting on the flesh of man, conducting mass torture and practicing dark magic. So atrocious is the mass sin at the tyrant's hands that the benevolent Goddess, the Maiden-Made-of-Light, ancestor to the Bloodstone Emperor himself, leaves the world in peril to eradicate the latter's empire, electing to risk the death of all rather than have it suffer under his monstrous excesses.

Cut the rat king.

Also, thinking more about it, I think calling the church evil is actually pretty fair as part of his qualifiers. He started a religion of evil, so making sure it's clear that the religion he started is evil, in a CM entry, seems fair

Also @Anyone with a better memory than me (lol), Was the only difference between book and show Craster the "godly man" arrogance of the latter? Should he go to the top and just have a sentence added about the revolting self-justification of his television version... I'm looking over the two truncated entries and they pretty well say the same thing in different words (I rewrote his show version like a year ago so didn't notice at the time).

If the answer is yes, I think we could just slide this in at the end: "In the television series, Craster's arrogance is so great as to boastfully proclaim himself a "godly man" while subjecting his daughter-wives to his licentious abuses."

Edited by 43110 on Dec 13th 2022 at 12:51:14 PM

I would be okay with that change.

Also, are Book! and Show! Gregory and Joffrey different enough to warrant separate entries? I know Show!Ramsay has additional crimes.

Btw the hardy boys stuff.

• The Hardy Boys:
  • Deathgame: Major Orville Brand is the right-hand man of Colonel Hammerlock and proves to be nastier than his master. The two are behind a scheme to kidnap teenagers and run them through a deadly Death Course to turn them into perfect soldiers. Brand intends to betray and murder Hammerlock. Afterwards, Hammerlock plans to use the soldiers to help perpetuate a military operation to keep a South American dictator in power, all so he can make himself rich.

  • Endangered Species, No Mercy & The Phoenix Equation: Ethan Daly makes and sells weapons to international terrorist organisations for profit. Daly is behind a scheme to take over the Phoenix corporation and has been drugging its leader into compliance while he picks off anyone, including his old partner in crime, who could expose him. Daly also illegally imports immigrants from other countries, offering them a job if they help work in his factories, and when the heat becomes too much for him, simply decides to kill them all to tie up loose ends.
  • Screamers: Dr. Arthur Charles Ludwig and Conrad Seethus are the masterminds behind the plan to release the computer virus known as "Screamer". "Screamer" causes any technology it comes into contact with to explode, and Ludwig and Seethus have been using it to bomb locations regardless of the danger to people. Ludwig and Seethus set up a plan to use "Screamer" to blow up a populated convention at their place of work to cover up their attempted murder of their boss. When that fails, the two reveal that they have rigged a device to release Screamer across the entire technological grid, ending Western civilization as we know it if they can't get their way.
  • Dead in the water: Klaus Stachel is an infamous Nazi war criminal who, before the events of the book, stole a large amount of loot before using a U-boat to escape. When the new German government attempted to retrieve it, Stachel fired on his own side, wiping out a U-boat of his countrymen to escape. In the present, Stachel has been searching for the lost treasure and initiates a crime wave to get it back: bombing a treasure hunter's boat to stop him from finding it and trying to feed the Hardy Boys' friend to sharks if they don't sacrifice themselves to clear the way for him to get it back.

Thoughts ?

Edit: Joffrey in the show murders Robert's bastard kids which doesn't happen in the book.

Edited by miraculous on Dec 13th 2022 at 9:57:33 AM

As someone who is familiar with the franchise, I can confirm that Joffrey and Gregor are different enough.

Joffrey in the books shoots at peasants with crossbow and nails antlers at the heads of a group of people who plan to betray him and trebuchets them. In the show he kills Robert's bastards, has a prostitute tortured to death and tried to kill his own uncle.

Gregor in the books kills a lot more people, burns entire villages to the ground, led the gang-rape of a 12-year-old girl, tortured a man for weeks by cutting flesh from his body and feeding it to him and killed his father and sister and his two wives. In the show he kills every prisoner at Harrenhal which number in the hundreds before leaving the castle.

I am not sure about Craster since I don't remember that well, but if his crimes are essentially the same in both versions and he doesn't have that many differences, I don't see a reason for him to have two entries.

Edited by WatTambor on Dec 13th 2022 at 9:31:25 PM

Hmm I guess throw a cut to Rat King?

Also please hear me out on this one but I'd like to discuss this candidate, Wild Bill. Here's his writeup:

• "Wild Bill" Wharton is awaiting execution at the Cold Mountain Penitentiary for murdering three people in an armed robbery, one of whom was a pregnant woman. When he first appears in the prison he manages to convince the guards he's in a drugged stupor, only to attempt to strangle Dean Stanton to death when his guard is down. Failing in that, Wild Bill contents himself with causing as much mischief as he can before his eventual execution. Eventually it comes to light that Wild Bill's worst known crime was the rape and murder of the two little girls who John Coffrey was accused of killing. In order to stop the girls from calling for help, he told them that if one of them screams, it's her sister that he'd kill.

Now I fully agree Wild Bill is a pure scumfuck and easily passes baseline heinous. My issue is that he's listed on the Stephen King page. I get comparing to the Eldritch Abominations is a bit harsh since William is some random loony but the other human antagonists that don't have any correlation to some higher power seem worse?

Granted I'm judging by the writeups for the others (although I have seen Green Mile) so obviously correct me if I'm wrong.

• Todd Bowden: Fantasises about raping jewish women, Serial Killer of the homeless and then goes on a rampaging massacre for a few hours.
• Norman Daniels: Sexually abused his wife for 14 years and tortured/killed anyone in his way to get her back.
• Charles Burnside: Rapes, murders and cannibalises children.
• Jim Pickering: Serial Rapist and murderer of women.
• Big Jim Rennie: Bundle of crimes and is noted to cover his son's crimes which also include rape and murder.
• Robert Anderson: Serial Killer and Serial Rapist over a large time span.

Wharton's crimes consist of armed robbery which resulted in 3 deaths and his big one, the rape and murder of 2 girls. I can't believe I'm saying this but only 2 rapes for a Stephen King novel where the other humans have a larger count? Now them being kids is definitely unique but Would Hurt a Child is a Stephen King staple so uh...

Now I'm not advocating for a cut straight away but I'd like some discussion on this? Apologies if what I've sprouted has just been a waste though.

Oh Mir Writeups look good!

Edited by WetFlannels on Dec 13th 2022 at 6:02:32 PM

I recall him having dirt poor resources was what made him count.

Yeah, plenty of people in king rape and abuse kids. Two isn’t much special

Honestly you could move Wharton to film adaptation only like Boggs is. And their he wouldn't have like an entire verse filled with psychos to compare too.

Also to note IRC doesn't Del (the botched executioner one) have rape and arson under his belt in the same film? Granted he seems to be The Atoner and accepts his execution but still he has nasty crimes under belt as well.

Tentative cut for Wharton.