Needs Help: Hate Sink

In the previous HS thread, we agreed on discussing the trope's scope and meaning further in Trope Talk. To sum it up, we had considerable debates where several attempts at redefining the trope and narrowing its scope weren't met with much support. So, we reached the point where we're past trying to alter the trope's definition and debating its criteria.

So, the following solutions were proposed in the thread:

• Turn the page into a supertrope/index in which it's still a trope, but examples are moved to subtropes. — A compromise between the people who still want to keep the trope and the people who think it's unsalvageable or too broad.
• Turn it into an example-less index and dewick.
• Cut entirely. — This was suggested by tropers who felt that the trope's ideas were already covered by other tropes or that "characters intended to be hated" wasn't trope-worthy.
• Do nothing. We've officially given up on trying to repair this trope.

We're past the point where we're still debating its scope and criteria; we're only looking for definitive solutions right now. So please, let's not rehash the same endless discussions and focus on one objective: reaching a consensus on what to do with this page.

There's also a draft in the making for the "More Hatable Lesser Villain" idea that came out of the discussions.

Edited by selkies on Aug 12th 2021 at 6:12:45 PM

Opened for discussion.

As for me, I am good with the supertrope idea.

Edited by Berrenta on Aug 12th 2021 at 10:12:40 AM

I've been rooting for the supertrope idea for weeks now and I still am.

Still personally leaning towards the index option but I'm not opposed to the supertrope one

I think supertrope or white flag.

I'm for the Index or Supertrope.

Edited by Adept on Aug 13th 2021 at 9:12:25 PM

I vote supertrope. If not that, index. If not that, white flag.

Since we're past the discussion ^note I still think the idea of "characters built up to Asshole Victim with chronic Kick the Dog and no Freudian Excuse or Noble Demon moments" is tropeworthy, but we've been through this for too long I'm also in for finishing up the More Hatable Lesser Villain draft and making Hate Sink a Supertrope for use when subtropes aren't enough.

to making this a supertrope

Supertrope.

Edit: Retracted due to what I said in my next post.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 13th 2021 at 12:47:35 PM

Super-Trope.

As someone who did not participate in any prior discussions but was sort of following along with the debate...

Supertrope. This trope seems too broad to be much else.

for Super-Trope

To super trope

I didn't follow the TT discussion but was definitely on the "this is too broad and I would prefer to cut it" side of the TRS. I still prefer Index or Cut. So I gotta ask: what types of examples would remain on the supertrope? Do you have a sample?

Because I worry that it'll just lead to more of the same (ie. "CLEARLY Asshole Mc Hateful doesn't fit on any of these OTHER tropes but he's not a Complete Monster so I will just put him onto Hate Sink :)"

Edited by Synchronicity on Aug 13th 2021 at 9:23:18 AM

My question for Supertrope is what are the subtropes? For example one of the supposed subtropes thrown around was Jerkass but that was decided as too broad, especially because there are Jerkasses in fiction who are quite well liked by the audience (and intended to be). As far as I could tell the previous thread didn't really come to a consensus on what the subtropes are.

It's hard to answer that without knowing what you think would fall into your misuse pile. See, the reason people want a supertrope version is because this trope is so broad that it encapsulates many different ideas and concepts. Because we think there's an idea here but agree that many other tropes cover similar ground, so the idea is that it'd only be used when there's no way to describe the character with one of the subtropes. So it's hard to pick out one example in particular when we don't know our subtropes yet and are considering this idea because of how broad and vague the criteria is.

The "CM misuse" I'm still not on the same page on. I agree it's a problem but I think in the original thread we hashed out the fact that the CM issue was in the way the example was written, not in the actual usage. They get written as a list-of-transgressions, but that doesn't mean people are actually seeing it as CM-lite. At least, I've never seen evidence that that was the issue here in any of the discussions or wick checks. So if you're worried that it'll happen, you need to prove that it's what's already happening and that there's example you can provide.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 13th 2021 at 1:38:34 PM

Perhaps I should have worded it better. CM-lite is not the precise usage I'm worried about. But that was merely an example of a thought process that would lead to the continued "list of transgressions" usage.

So I'm also seconding : what would be the subtropes, and what would be an example of an example that doesn't fit into these subtropes? I'd rather we hashed that out before I give it a , because the whole concept still feels a little too nebulous to me.

Edited by Synchronicity on Aug 13th 2021 at 12:43:47 PM

After seeing it brought up, I'm also curious about what the subtropes would be. The Internet Backdraft thread from a few years ago hashed out the subtropes before voting on it, so I think I'll retract my supertrope vote until I know what's being voted on with that option.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 13th 2021 at 12:46:15 PM

Some of the ones we discussed at the thread were things like:

• Politically Incorrect Villain
• Asshole Victim
• Dirty Coward
• The Bully, at least barring things like Bully Turned Buddy and Reformed Bully, because bullies are almost always designed to be despised by the audience.

Jerkass was tossed around but that one didn't seem right to me since as subtropes it includes things like Jerk with a Heart of Gold, and it's clear that simply being a jerk doesn't always correlate with being the character we're supposed to hate.

Perhaps those tropes would work, but I agree that Jerkass isn't a good fit. I might look through the Trope Talk thread later to get a better idea of what to vote on.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 13th 2021 at 12:51:09 PM

I think a lot of the tropes toward the "less sympathetic" end of Sliding Scale of Antagonist Vileness could be subtropes (but not necessarily all of them; I think we'd have to hash out what counts and what doesn't). Things like Smug Snake and Dirty Coward.

Basically, the subtropes would need to be characters that exist mostly just for the audience to hate them. They have specific traits or do specific things that earn them audience ire without being sympathetic or likable enough to redeem themselves for it.