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This is a thread to discuss those Administrivia pages in need of a little updating- you know the ones. The ones that still cite rules we've long since changed, or the ones that don't properly cite our current standards. Some of them are even scattered in Main/!

So, this is the place to take those pages and fix them up with the help of the community.

For a list of current projects, see Outdated Pages.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 21st 2020 at 8:29:04 AM

GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
May 12th 2020 at 6:50:48 AM

Single-Issue Wonk is something that applies to TV Tropes, but it's happened on Wikipedia as well, such as when someone went through the entire site to change every instance of "comprised of" to "composed of". (Yes, it's grammatically incorrect, but searching the whole site and making loads of edits that make no other changes is a bit much.)

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 12th 2020 at 8:51:15 AM

"An ear for an ear makes it hard to hear." —Gaston (Animal Crossing: New Horizons)
bwburke94 Ultimate ??? from Ultimate Academy for Gifted Juveniles Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Ultimate ???
May 12th 2020 at 9:13:18 AM

[up] Here's an NPR article about that guy.

Hey there. Guess I don't have to introduce myself, huh?
wingedcatgirl Watch that pink smoke swooce right in from The Murder-Free Hotel
Watch that pink smoke swooce right in
May 12th 2020 at 11:49:16 AM

Edit Stomp should probably be moved to Administrivia. Theoretically it could be about any wiki that does the edit-lock thing, but in practice, if people are looking at that page, they want to know about our edit-locking system.

Sylvi& | it/they/she | plural trans catgirl | Trouble Cube | avatar by Madame Butterfly Knife
WarJay77 Some like it hot from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Some like it hot
May 12th 2020 at 11:50:34 AM

[up] I agree.

That's sort of how I feel about Single-Issue Wonk; it might occur on other wikis, but if people are reading it, it's probably because it was linked to them like a policy page.

Wick Check Project Official Sandbox (TM)
wingedcatgirl Watch that pink smoke swooce right in from The Murder-Free Hotel
Watch that pink smoke swooce right in
May 12th 2020 at 11:56:36 AM

It probably helps that all of the other wikis I can think of (That Other Wiki, Fandom, TCRF...) are MediaWiki based, meaning they don't do that.

Like, does anyone actually have an example of another wiki that does the edit lock thing?

Sylvi& | it/they/she | plural trans catgirl | Trouble Cube | avatar by Madame Butterfly Knife
Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
May 12th 2020 at 12:34:28 PM

Relevant Wikipedia article about what we call Edit Stomp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Edit_conflict

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
May 13th 2020 at 8:07:36 AM

I feel like Edit Stomp is more worthy of an Administrivia move than Single-Issue Wonk. As previously mentioned, lots of other wikis use MediaWiki and thus don't feature edit locks.

Also, I don't understand why it's on Pages Needing Wicks. Maybe we should go through Pages Needing Wicks, not necessarily for an Administrivia move, but for removing pages that don't actually need wicks (such as if any Definition-Only Pages are listed); it was previously pointed out that Dr. Pedia and Mr. Trope is on there, and I recently removed Neutrality Sue from the index because it's Flame Bait and thus doesn't need wicks.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 13th 2020 at 10:12:40 AM

"An ear for an ear makes it hard to hear." —Gaston (Animal Crossing: New Horizons)
WarJay77 Some like it hot from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Some like it hot
May 13th 2020 at 12:56:31 PM

But who would be reading Single-Issue Wonk with the intent to learn about sites besides TVT? Every time I've read it, it's been when linked as though it's a policy page, describing the actions of certain people. It's only ever relevant when it's about our wiki.

Wick Check Project Official Sandbox (TM)
GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
May 13th 2020 at 6:46:43 PM

[up]That's a good point.

"An ear for an ear makes it hard to hear." —Gaston (Animal Crossing: New Horizons)
bwburke94 Ultimate ??? from Ultimate Academy for Gifted Juveniles Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Ultimate ???
May 13th 2020 at 8:37:57 PM

[up],[up][up] We could add it as an aside "this happens on the other wiki too".

Hey there. Guess I don't have to introduce myself, huh?
GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
May 18th 2020 at 5:11:23 AM

Bizarre And Improbable Giraffe Herding Techniques is apparently about building consensus on a wiki, but everything past the first sentence is so buried in metaphors that it comes at the cost of readability. (Also, it's yet another wiki-specific page that ended up on Pages Needing Wicks.)

Apparently, people adding wicks think it's actually about giraffes:

    Partial wick check 
Main.That One Side Quest:
  • Beaver Bother. Herding giraffes is nothing compared to herding beavers, into a pit that seems scientifically designed to keep beavers out, in a truly absurd time limit. Even if you approach them just right, the beavers won't necessarily go in the hole. About 50% of the time a beaver will go up to the edge and just refuse to fall, even if you're approaching the proper way. Most walkthroughs will tell you that nothing will cause that beaver to fall into the hole for about 10 seconds once they decide they don't want to go in, and you only have about 60 seconds to reach your goal. One level has two Beaver Bother minigames in it.
From Music.ONEUS: From PlayingWith.Take Over The World:

Edit: Also, shouldn't Entry Pimp be an Administrivia page? It's indexed under Wiki Tropes, but it's mainly a TV Tropes thing, especially since Wikipedia's notability guidelines may result in that kind of thing getting rejected there, while a lot of other wikis focus on more specific subjects than TV Tropes and Wikipedia.

Edit: Neglected to mention that I found out about the giraffe page from this ATT query. If it's an in-joke, maybe it should go in Just For Fun, though I'm tempted to say it should be namespaced under DarthWiki/ instead of JustForFun/, a la pages like Crappy Trope Definitions and How Not to Write an Example.

Edit: The giraffe page was cut.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 20th 2020 at 1:37:48 PM

"An ear for an ear makes it hard to hear." —Gaston (Animal Crossing: New Horizons)
WaterBlap Blapper of Water Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
May 21st 2020 at 6:46:30 AM

I'm bringing this in from War Jay's "common mistakes" thread, by the way.

So we have a FAQ page, but it is bare bones and mostly seems unhelpful. For one thing, it doesn't provide any answers to these questions, but rather it links to pages. I think we could flesh this out, especially considering that there are frequently asked questions in ATT that aren't referenced here.

I think a laconical answer should be provided for questions with links, such as "what's The Troping Code?" or "I have a suggestion for the site, where can I propose this? Please bring this sort of query or proposal to Wiki Tech Wish List." For answers that don't already have a page, I think we could just, y'know, answer as succinctly as possible (see below).

Notably, this page lacks anything regarding where to find tropes or shows, and we keep getting asked that in ATT, so maybe adding that will help? Last I checked, we don't really get wish list questions in ATT all that often and it is referenced here...

Some questions left off the page I've seen in ATT:

  • What was the first trope? Gilligan Cut.
  • How do I make a page for a work?
  • What subpages can X namespace have?
    • JustForFun/:none.
    • DarthWiki/ and SugarWiki/: none.
    • Audience Reactions: Laconic/...
    • (etc.)
  • Is this an Edit War? As per our page describing edit wars, any sequence of edits where something was added, cut, and then re-added — including cut, re-added, cut again — is an Edit War. Please report Edit Wars in Ask The Tropers.
  • Is this a ban evader? Please double check the editing histories of the two accounts before bringing this up. Also, please have some evidence before accusing anyone, and remember to assume innocence until... (etc.)
  • "Can you help me find a trope? I don't remember what it was called, but..." Please ask this type of question in Trope Finder.
  • "Can you help me find a work? I don't remember the title, I think it was called X, and..." Please ask this type of question in You Know That Show.

We could possibly organize the queestions by topic, like "History of TV Tropes", "Editing the Wiki" and "Regarding the Forums"...

EDIT to add:

     Suggested Questions / Organization for a New FAQ 
Not all of the questions are included here but it should hopefully illustrate what I'm talking about, and also suggest a few questions / answers.

Edited by WaterBlap on May 21st 2020 at 9:11:24 AM

TLP Crash Rescue Tallies, where we make the wiki better.
GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
May 21st 2020 at 8:01:20 AM

[up]I think it would be worth saying when it is and isn't acceptable to use the Cut List, since there have been cases of people cutlisting tropes and work pages with no consensus or discussion, and with no clear problems with the pages.

It would also be worth mentioning the Trope Repair Shop and Image Pickin', since ATT often ends up with queries that belong in one of those two instead. You already mentioned Trope Talk, but I think it would be worth noting that discussions of trope definitions go there instead of ATT.

It may also be worth referencing how we handle cases of work pages' creators also being the creators of the works.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 21st 2020 at 10:04:46 AM

"An ear for an ear makes it hard to hear." —Gaston (Animal Crossing: New Horizons)
WaterBlap Blapper of Water Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
May 21st 2020 at 9:00:41 AM

Here's an updated version of the above FAQ. It's kind of unwieldy so I might folderize the head bullets for the page, and I suppose we could move it to Sandbox.FAQ so other people can add more to it?

    open/close all folders 

    Suggested FAQ 
  • TV Tropes in general:
  • History of TV Tropes:
    • What was the first trope? Gilligan Cut.
    • Why is it called TV Tropes? We started with troping television, hence "television tropes." Rather than rename and rebrand the site, we kept the name as an Artifact Title.
    • Who was the first owner of the site? Fast Eddie, who now uses a new handle to make it clear he is no longer in a position of authority.
  • People and groups:
    • Who are the admins? The moderators? See Know The Staff, as mods may change from time to time. The admins are drewski and itcdr.
    • What is the Five P? Who is on this committee?
  • The Wiki Proper, and Wiki Maintenance
    • For questions about What Goes Where on the Wiki, see the page for, uh, What Goes Where on the Wiki.
    • "What does this word mean?" Check out our fancy TV Tropes Glossary.
    • For questions about How to Write an Example, see the page for... well you get it.
    • "Can you help me find a trope? I don't remember what it was called, but..." Please ask this type of question in Trope Finder.
    • "Can you help me find a work/cartoon/sitcom/...? I don't remember the title, but..." Please ask this type of question in You Know That Show.
    • What subpages can X namespace have?
      • JustForFun/:none.
      • DarthWiki/ and SugarWiki/: none.
      • Audience Reactions: Laconic/...
      • (etc.)
    • What's the difference between this trope and another? See the Canonical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions. If the tropes you're asking about are not there, please ask your question in the Trope Talk subforum.
    • Is this an Edit War? As per our page describing edit wars, any sequence of edits where something was added, cut, and then re-added — including cut, re-added, cut again — is an Edit War. Please report Edit Wars in Ask The Tropers.
    • Is this a ban evader? Please double check the editing histories of the two accounts before bringing this up. Also, please have some evidence before accusing anyone, and remember to assume innocence until... (etc.)
    • "I think a page needs to be cut. Can I use the Cut List?" This needs more than one response.
      • We need consensus in order to properly cut a page. We build this consensus through discussion and with crowners, so if you want to cut a page, you need to discuss it either in the Trope Repair Shop, in Ask The Tropers, or in the forums.
      • We have a policy regarding creators trying to cut the pages for their works. It's called The Fic May Be Yours, but the Trope Page Is Ours. Despite the name, this applies to all types of works. The jist of it is that all of the wiki pages are ours regardless of whether you created the work the page is about.
      • Remember that we only cut pages outright when we give up on the given page. More lenient options may be to migrate a page or to convert it into a disambiguation page.
    • "I am the creator of X. Can I add Audience Reactions and other YMMV items to the YMMV/ page?" No. For one thing, you are not the audience. For another, YMMV/ is meant to collect reactions and opinions of fans. This excludes the creator from contributing to YMMV/ pages of their own works.
    • "I am the creator of X. Can I add trivia items to the Trivia/ page?" Not unless the information can be verified by someone else. You cannot create Word of God "examples" whole-cloth. There must be some news article or other source for these items.
  • The Forums in General
    • Be sure to read What Goes Where in the Forums and the Projects Directory.
    • "I've seen people talk about the 'left side' of the forums. What is that?" On desktop, you'll see that the forums are organized by general topic into three colums. The "left side" of the forums include "Wiki and Forums" and "Real-ish" forum topics, such as TRS, IP, and OTC.
    • What are the other areas of the forums called? "Media" comprises its own column so it's generally just called "Media," while the... other side of the forums includes "Just For Fun" (with Yack Fest and other very informal conversations), the RP Subforums (called "Zone: Forum RPG"), and the forum archives.
  • The Trope Repair Shop (a.k.a. TRS)
    • What is TRS?
    • "There is a problem with a page on the wiki, but it isn't a trope page. What can I do?" Despite the name, TRS is also the place to repair works pages if they have significant problems.
  • Image Pickin' (a.k.a. IP)
    • What is IP? This is where image suggestions belong. Most, if not all, image changes belong in IP.
    • "I want to change a page image. Do I need to start a thread first?" Yes. It is considered vandalism to change images without consensus. IP is the place to build such consensus.
    • "I want to give an image a quality upgrade. It isn't a 'new image' so much as it is less blurry. Do I need to start a thread first?" You do need to discuss it, but you don't need to start a new thread. We have a dedicated thread for quality upgrades called Pages needing quality upgrades. You can also take a look at Artifacts 'R' Us.
    • "I want to make the background of a page image transparent. Do I need to start a thread?" You still need to discuss it. You can ask in our thread titled Night Vision Image Quality Cleanup. Also look at Pages Needing Transparent Images.
  • On-Topic Conversations (a.k.a. OTC)
    • What is OTC? As a subforum of "Real-ish," this is where formal conversations belong. Every thread focuses on one specific topic, and as such every new thread must be moderator approved.
    • How does moderation work in OTC? Mostly, this is a self-moderating forum. If you see something, say something.
    • Aren't there specific mods for OTC? Yes, despite it being mostly self-moderating, there are mods specific to OTC. This is because OTC is very popular, quite active, and (at times) heated.

TLP Crash Rescue Tallies, where we make the wiki better.
WarJay77 Some like it hot from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Some like it hot
May 21st 2020 at 9:40:55 AM

[up] Looks good to me though I'm not in a position where I can sit and read it all.

Wick Check Project Official Sandbox (TM)
WaterBlap Blapper of Water Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
May 21st 2020 at 9:48:21 AM

I moved it to Sandbox.FAQ because there are certain things I don't know/remember. And the list was difficult to read in Notepad... I tried to organize it and address stuff I remember seeing in ATT over the years.

TLP Crash Rescue Tallies, where we make the wiki better.
GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
May 24th 2020 at 11:01:19 AM

Needs a Better Description, funnily enough, needs a better description. It's for tropes, creators, and works, but the description talks a lot about trope page descriptions and barely indicates that it's also for work and creator page descriptions.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 24th 2020 at 1:04:58 PM

"An ear for an ear makes it hard to hear." —Gaston (Animal Crossing: New Horizons)
MacronNotes She/her from In my bed Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
She/her
May 24th 2020 at 12:06:39 PM

I think that is because it was specifically created as a TLP phase.

I would support a description that incorporates creator and work pages better though.

Edited by MacronNotes on May 24th 2020 at 3:07:18 PM

Links for self reference: English Localization Cleanup and Appearance Tropes Cleanup
WarJay77 Some like it hot from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Some like it hot
May 27th 2020 at 1:19:33 PM

Sandbox.FAQ could use more visual distinction between the questions and answers. Maybe putting them on different lines, or bolding the questions.

WarJay77 Some like it hot from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Some like it hot
May 27th 2020 at 1:20:46 PM

[up] Mm, good catch. The questions and answers themselves are fine from what I can tell, but the page does need some visual tweaks.

Edit: Actually now that I'm looking more closely at it, a lot of the answers are either very laconic or just kinda say "go to this other page", which defeats the purpose of the page being a one-stop question-shop. It's off to a good start but we need more meat.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 27th 2020 at 4:29:19 AM

Wick Check Project Official Sandbox (TM)
WaterBlap Blapper of Water Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
May 27th 2020 at 2:21:04 PM

I've added asscaps to the questions to make them stand out.

[up] Agreed, for the most part. I don't think everything needs X number of words or to be answered in full, but some of these answers could use more information. We have separate pages for a lot of this stuff, and it would be easier to have the answer to, say, How Indexing Works consolidated on that one page, in the event that the answer changes later.

It's easy to make FAQs too heavy under their own weight. I think the first question and answer is a good example of what I would consider a good answer in a FAQ: "See [this page], but basically the cardinal rule is 'Don't be a dick.'" It gives the important, basic information and if the person wants more information then they can read the other page. Other answers are too complicated to fit on a FAQ (e.g. the aforementioned indexing but also trope naming), so imo it shouldn't be fleshed out in the FAQ.

(Though also all of this was added by one person so I think it's also fair to say I couldn't add everything without burning out. Basically, I'm saying I could have missed some important information and not realized it. Or that an important frequently asked question could have slipped by my notice.)

[EDIT: I realize it might seem like I'm trying to stop people from fleshing out answers. I'm really not, and I won't be offended if someone suggests fleshing out a particular answer. I'm trying to explain my reasoning, as well as pointing out that I'm just one person. One reason I put my edits on the sandbox is so that it wouldn't be just me and my reasoning. This PSA was brought to you by the letter coffee. Thank you.]

Also, [down] thank you, appreciated.

Edited by WaterBlap on May 27th 2020 at 4:32:45 AM

TLP Crash Rescue Tallies, where we make the wiki better.
WarJay77 Some like it hot from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Some like it hot
May 27th 2020 at 2:26:42 PM

Nah, I understand, and you did really well for doing it alone. I'll see what I can do with it tonight.

Wick Check Project Official Sandbox (TM)
Piterpicher from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
May 27th 2020 at 2:44:01 PM

I think just bolding should have been better for Sandbox.FAQ. That's how it's been done with How to Create a Works Page, How to Pick a Good Image, etc. Going all-caps on a page that's supposed to be helpful just seems tacky and intimidating, and in general, AC should typically be restricted to media separation if folders are unnecessary or robotspeak (plus it's currently glitched).

Other than that, the page has my support. I think we should add a "How big is this site?" question with a link to Article Count for how many articles are there and this thread for data size (as of 2016, unfortunately). Also, "Where can I find a more detailed history of this site?" question with a link to Timeline.TV Tropes. Maybe they're not the most frequently asked, but I think they'd still be good to have on that page.

WaterBlap Blapper of Water Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
May 27th 2020 at 2:58:09 PM

Honestly, I'm a bit burned out with the formatting. If I still had In Design I would just find-replace all of it but... if people think bold and soft-breaks are better than the "glitched" asscaps, then it can be changed. With the "glitch," the only real difference is that one's in smallcaps, which personally I prefer (and I can't say I've ever read asscaps in robot-speech but... okay).

Would this be good for those questions:

Edited by WaterBlap on May 27th 2020 at 4:58:52 AM

TLP Crash Rescue Tallies, where we make the wiki better.

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