Hate Sink cleanup

I heard that we're allowed to put characters from our own work up for judgment. If that's true:

What's the work?

Megami no Hanabira, a crossover between a sweet, fluffy Yuri Visual Novel series called Sono Hanabira Ni Kuchizuke Wo and Shin Megami Tensei.

This Is Gonna Suck for the main characters, considering they're up against murderous demons, the Yakuza...and this almighty prick.

Who is Father Archibald Phillips? What has he done?

The mastermind behind the demon outbreak that consumed the city of Kazamino, killing hundreds of thousands. Why did he cause the outbreak? So he and his followers, The Flock, could swoop in and save the day with their angels, winning support and popularity, and by extension power. I mean, who would deny the demands of the only ones capable of fighting back against 'freak demon outbreaks', especially when said outbreaks would have a strange tendency to happen to places that annoy the Flock? To be fair, he manages to win a substantial following, thanks to the fact he's a Consummate Liar. Due to Lucifer's machinations and the actions of a plucky group of lesbian high-schoolers, Phillips's plans fall apart.

That's the good news. The bad news is that Phillips lost his shit over it, deciding to slaughter everyone in Kazamino and Make an Example of Them. As he plunges further into madness he decides to just wipe out the planet wholesale and fuck off to Heaven to live among the angels...no, even better: he'll overthrow the Great Will and take the throne for himself!

What makes him personally despicable?

Well, besides the fact he's a misanthropic, deceitful, murderous, cowardly, sadistic asshole with a total lack of empathy, there's his ego. Ohhh, LAWDY does Phillips have an ego. At the height of his breakdown he can't go two sentences without crowing about how great he is, even as he's being pummeled. Even before that, he can without the slightest bit of trouble lie to the faces of his victims, feigning being a kind, benevolent servant of the Lord even as the demons he unleashed burn their city to the ground and slaughter their loved ones. Not even his own allies are safe from him, as he kills a group of his underlings for losing to the girls, and then when Metatron deals a well-deserved punishment to Phillips for his stunning failures, Phillips turns the tables on the Voice of God Himself and the closest thing Phillips has to a direct superior, stealing the angel's body and using it to continue his fight against the girls.

Evil Is Cool traits? Complexity? Freudian Excuse?

No way. Nanami aptly refers to him as a 'loser' in the final battle: every good thing about this man is a facade: strip it away and you have the definition of a Fake Ultimate Hero at its very worst. As a leader he's utterly incompetent, letting the situation in the city devolve at a frightening pace because of his refusal to alter his plans accordingly, allowing his underlings to die beneath an ever-growing number of demons in the city. When chewed out by his boss Metatron, Phillips blames everyone but himself. As for Freudian Excuses, we get nothing: if there really is a reason he turned out like this, it remains a mystery.

Verdict?

Keeper.

Edited by krimzonflygon2 on Sep 20th 2019 at 7:18:18 AM

Edited by Beast on Aug 24th 2023 at 4:03:36 AM

Mengele, Phillips and Chandler

to Chandler

@Shadao

Those work great! Thanks.

Chandler.

So...since it's been two weeks, and I had initially brought him up already, here's good ol' Pennywise the Dancing Clown primarily from the 2017 adaptation and its 2019 sequel.

Who is he?

Everyone knows. It was an ancient Eldritch Abomination from before the dawn of time (the book has it as the Macroverse where it was born in alongside its natural enemy Maturin, a large space turtle who vomited up the universe). Millennia ago, It arrived on Earth in a meteor-like event, residing on the grounds that would come to be called "Derry." Every 27 years, It awakens from its slumber in an event of great violence to feed on Derry's children, preferring them for their vivid imaginations, and scaring them puts salt on the meat, I guess. It was responsible for the disappearances of thousands of children throughout the long time it was active and it had once slaughtered a tribe of Native Americans who attempted to use what they called the Ritual of Chud against it.

In 1988, a young boy named Bill Denbrough crafts a paper boat for his younger brother Georgie because he was sick (actually he wasn't; he just didn't want to play with him that day). Georgie, as you know, takes the boat for a spin during a rainstorm, but the boat slips into a storm drain. It is there, It manifests as a clown called Pennywise the Dancing Clown. Pennywise claims that there was a whole carnival in the sewers as a means of gaining Georgie's trust. Georgie goes to grab the boat...but Pennywise seizes his arm and bites it off gorily. And then, he grabs Georgie and pulls him into the storm drain just to be an extra dick.

From there, we get more of his tomfoolery from scaring the Losers Club on numerous occasions to make them more tasty for his eventual feast to glut himself on. We also have him Kick the Dog constantly with Bill about his little bro. He mind controls Henry Bowers into killing his prick of a father (and a deleted scene his friends as well). He takes Beverly Marsh hostage to lure the other Losers Club members into the sewers. They overcome their fears and beat the ever living shit out of him. He spouts something about fear. The Losers make their blood oath to return to Derry if It ever resurfaced. Yadda, yadda, yadda. You'll get it if you read the 1,000+ novel or watched the 1990 miniseries.

It does return to Derry in 2016, and one of the first things it does is seemingly rescue a gay man named Adrian Mellon after some homophobes tossed him off the bridge...but then he rips into Adrian's chest with his teeth, killing him in front of his boyfriend. Then writes a message in blood for Mike to make its return known. It does some more bullshit moves such as luring a young girl with a birthmark on her face down the stalls at a ballgame by promising to remove it (well, he did technically remove it; I mean, no head would mean that he did do what he said he was going to do). The worse one, however, is taunting a grown Bill that he couldn't save another kid — this one being Dean, a boy who reminded him an awful lot of Georgie — and has him go to a hall of mirrors at a fair. He then gorily kills that boy in front of Bill just to further drive the knife of despair into him.

So, like the book and miniseries, It takes on a spiderlike form and tries to kill the Losers, succeeding at killing Eddie by impaling him, but this act causes his undoing. The Losers realize that they can make him shrink down if they forced him into taking a shape. So, they dish out belief-based insults on Pennywise, making him shrink down to a miserable, sobbing mess of flesh. Mike then removes his heart and he and the remaining Losers crush it, ending Pennywise's evil for good.

Evil Is Cool? Complexity? Mitigating factors?

So...despite being a sadistic mass murderer of children, Pennywise does have some moments where he can be genuinely charming. Well, humorous more like it. The first film had him do his signature dance as his desperate attempt to make Beverly terrified. That dance had since been a Memetic Mutation ever since it was released back in 2017. Or in Chapter Two, It has a scene where he mocks a grown up Richie on his homosexuality in an outrageously hilarious musical segment where he event has the people behind Richie sway back and forth to the song. Or then he talks about wanting to play Street Fighter with Richie as a further way to make Richie intimidated.

Complexity. Nothing there. He's just a sadistic asshole whose only goals in life are eating and sleeping.

The problem with Pennywise/It is that while he may have gained a Love to Hate status where some fans even try to humanize him, that is all audience reactions pure and simple. Film-wise? He's a vile, horrid monster who can barely pass as human.

What makes him personally despicable?

Guess.

Authorial intent

Well...there was Bill Skarsgård who basically stated that he based his take on Pennywise on hyenas and grizzly bears, and Pennywise is somehow even more dark and monstrous than the 1986 book counterpart, and definitely moreso than Curry's take on the Dancing Clown where he at the very least while a child eating monster, was largely entertaining because of Curry's Large Ham tendencies. That, and Skarsgard basically said that the reason as to why he torments the Losers Club is because he hates them largely for being the only victims of his to escape his clutches and for wounding him in the first film. Can't really find what Muschietti himself said on this take on the clown, but I think that's good enough.

As tempted as I am to give a yes to It, especially after the recent film. I feel kind of like this is the case with Freddy Kruger. The thing you pointed out with author comparing It to a grizzly bear sounds more like he is talking about It being scary rather than his overall despicable-ness.

I don't really agree with the Krueger angle, to be honest. Like I mean with those moments, the idea behind them is more that he's using them to psychologically torment the characters rather than them actually being humorous. The audience can find them hilarious, but they are not in universe.

Massive to this version of Pennywise.

Him also being Scary is irrelevant, the whole point of Him is he's essentially the Cosmic version of a Bully.

Edited by Kylotrope on Sep 20th 2019 at 10:54:29 AM

Ehhh, actually I will throw in a yes too. IT hit too close to home in Chapter Two.

Yeah... I think the 2019!version of IT belongs here and while Bill Skaarsgard nailed his performance, it didn't downplay the awfulness of his character of course. Tim Curry's version was Love to Hate because of his hamminess and entertaining behavior but no such thing to be found in this version of IT especially the moment where he killed Gay person... You're in for the treat that this character is meant to be hated by the audience.

Pennywise

• I Come in Peace: Victor Manning is the leader of the White Boys, a gang of drug dealers who hind theur crimes behind kitschy attemots at glamour. Before the start of the film, Manning killed Jack Caine's partner when he tried to bring him down, a fact he regularly taunts Caine with. Manning opens the story by bombing an FBI office to steal some drugs they seized, killing several officers in the process. Despite Caine's attempts to track him down, Manning flees to another country, last seen in a postcard he sent his nemesis.

The only reason Freddy lost his Hate Sink status in the sequels was because those filmmakers clearly wanted to make more scenes of Freddy killing more people in creative and hilarious ways in the dream worlds. He became the star of the films, and everyone else was just Cannon Fodder. In contrast, Pennywise's top billing doesn't change the fact that the focus was on the Losers' Club. It's their story and without them, there would be no films about Pennywise.

And because of that, Pennywise manages to be what Wes Craven wanted Freddy to be; a depraved serial killer and monster that you want to see be defeated.

Honestly, I think IT from the novel may also count as a Hate Sink (but I've never read it before) given what I heard about his actions described there. Only Tim Curry's Pennywise doesn't count... mainly because the miniseries was Lighter and Softer and thus made Pennywise into more of a troll rather than a monster who will eats the kids.

to IT aka Pennywise, Phillips and Chandler

Edited by Shadao on Sep 21st 2019 at 12:06:12 PM

I can do the book counterpart later sometime today.

New proposal, from the 1996 version of The Crucible.

Who's the candidate?

Abigail Williams, a teenage girl who had an affaor with an older man.

What does she do?

After said man, John Proctor, realizes his mistaje and dumps Abigail, she goes full Yandere. She decides to try an imorovised ritual to kill John's wife, but is caught. Living in Puritan Massavhissetts, Abigail accuses one of her parents' slaves of being a witch, getting her executed. To keep the lie going, she and her friends start accusing random people of being witches to keep their lie from being exposed, with Abigail keeping the others under her thumb through fear. She eventually accuses John himself, keaving him to be hanged when he refuses to flee the city with her.

Yep. Karma Houdini.

Personally despicable?

Manipulative, jealous loon who starts the Salem Witch Trials.

Redeeming qualities?

I'm told her play version has a Freudian Excuse, but it's absent here.

Yes, she is a teenage girl taken advantage of by a grown man. Yes, she lives in a theocratic hellhole and started the lie to save her own skin. No, neither of these facts are played for sympathy. Especially the latter, as she was caught doing a ritual she fully intended to kill somebody with.

Verdict?

Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Sep 21st 2019 at 2:08:14 AM

Abigail.

The Freudian Excuse with Abigail is that her parents were killed when she was a child. It’s mostly background and doesn’t contribute much.

However, she does have Broken Bird on her character entry. Might be trouble.

Edited by k410ren on Sep 21st 2019 at 8:52:03 AM

Abigail.

Who is it?

Like I already said...an Eldritch Abomination hailing from a universe parallel to ours called the Macroverse where he also lived with the benevolent space turtle Maturin. Eventually, It arrives to Earth in an apocalyptic style event and sets up shop on the grounds that would eventually become Derry, Maine. So, you get the drift: every 27 years, It awakens from its hibernation to feed on the children of Derry. During its latest feeding cycle, it kills Georgie Denbrough as Pennywise the Dancing Clown among other victims. We get the fight, the Losers making their blood oath, the usual (well except for the group bang).

Years later he returns to seek revenge on the Losers and continues its spree of killing kiddies. It has Tom Rogan — Beverly's husband — kidnap Audrey to lure Bill and the others into its lair. It kills Eddie before trying to beg for its life when beaten but its heart is ripped out and destroyed.

What makes it personally despicable?

Guess.

Freudian Excuse? Evil Is Cool? Complexity?

While not as much of a sadistic asshole that Skarsgard's Pennywise would end up being, It is still depicted in the book as an utter narcissist who views itself as higher than any other being, besides seeing Maturin as an equal to an extent. Hence why it was surprised when it was beaten by the Losers Club and felt fear for the first time in its life. Albeit It believes that this is due to another force assisting the children, which It is proven to be 100% correct.

Authorial intent

King himself has gone on the record of saying that he chose to epitomize It as an evil Monster Clown primarily because children feared them. It's not like say Randall Flagg where his tune is that he considered Flagg to be his best villain in his rogues gallery. Pennywise/It is a being written to be so hated that the reader would want to see It go down.

Edited by AustinDR on Sep 21st 2019 at 12:16:09 PM

Yes to the clowns.

Also Abigail.

Abigail

to Abigail and to novel IT.

Amusing to see novel IT beg for mercy as the Losers kill it once and for all. I think that's what missing from the miniseries; having Tim Curry voice the stop-motion spider would at least connected the audience that Pennywise and the giant Spider are one and the same.

And I'm surprised to hear that Stephen King deliberately choose a clown for IT because clowns scare children. I thought Pennywise was meant to lure children its jaws, like an angler fish, and that's why critics thought that Bill Skarsgård's Pennywise was too scary to actually lure any children.

it's Possible king intended for both...he was On Drugs when writing so that would seem logical.

to original! Pennywise.

Hey guys. I've noticed a bit of a discrepancy between the Hate Sink entries talking about characters on main pages vs. talking about characters in their character pages, usually the main page having a detailed write-up about the character's actions while the character page usually just briefly sums up what makes the character hateable (usually something like "has no redeeming traits compared to X traits to fulfill X purpose). Should the character pages get the detailed write ups or are shorter summaries fine? I'm asking because the Characters page for Mobile Suit Gundam SEED has only one (Muruta Azrael) of the three characters listed under Hate Sink on the main page have an entry for their character folder, and his entry is far more basic than the main page's description of why he qualifies. If it's in my rights to make edits involving approved candidates (and assuming that someone doesn't just make the edits right after they see this post), should Azrael's character page be adjusted to use the Hate Sink write up from the main page and the other candidates have their entires copy-pasted from the main page, or should Azrael's character page Hate Sink entry be kept the same and the other candidates be given brief summaries?

Abigail, but only the movie version. Having watched the play, I wouldn't consider that one a Hate Sink at all, seeing as I was more or less Rooting for the Empire in this case, seeing as she's not only more sympathetic, but also has quite a few cool qualities. No idea whether those remain in the film.

Anyways...

Work? Warhammer Fantasy, a.k.a. Warhammer, the less popular (and in my opinion, better) original work which the More Popular Spin-Off Warhammer 40,000 was made. Awesome, kickass heavy metal Dark Fantasy universe. Anyways, a while back, I did Konrad von Carstein. I don't adore him, but I like Konrad a hell of a lot more than this bastard. I didn't do him months ago, but fuck it, I'm doing it now, so let's go.

Who is Mannfred von Carstein? This absolute shithead is the brother of Konrad von Carstein, the Vampire Count of Sylvania, and is responsible for stoking the flames of his Ax-Crazy invasion. Introducing himself by betraying his "father" Vlad von Carstein (One of the most noble villains in Warhammer canon) and letting him die, he then runs away and murders some virgins with Jon Skellan. He then takes over after Konrad's death, leads a whole-ass campaign just like his brother's, dies, thankfully, and then is brought back. He skins a witch hunter, tries to revive necromancer and fellow Complete Monster Nagash, and is generally just the worst dude. He is also a total manipulative coward, rarely desiring to show his face.

The End Times hit, and Mannfred here decides to ally with the forces of Order! He then abandons his allies repeatedly, and meets up with them all for a last stand. Except no, he betrays everyone and sells them all out to Chaos to save his own skin. He then betrays his allies in battle, killing Imperial hero Balthasar Gelt via a stab to the back, and murdering the weakened, crippled wizard Teclis, before being killed by the wizard's brother Tyrion in a brief fight. Good fucking riddance.

Why is he personally despicable? Warhammer is packed to the brim with evil characters. Hell, even most of the good guys are pretty awful. However, Mannfred stands out because he's not only excessively cruel, he's a manipulative, gutless coward who betrays every single ally to gain power and protect himself. He's also a Karma Houdini who is revived and given inexplicable redeeming qualities in the sequel, Age of Sigmar.

Evil Is Cool? Redeeming qualities? Complexity? Mannfred is a decent sorcerer and rocks a cape. He's a pretty good manipulator. That said, he's still a cowardly little shit. The Total War games give him the Adaptational Badass treatment by making him a pretty decent fighter, too, but even Konrad completely outmatched him in the original canon.

No redeeming qualities until Age of Sigmar, which we're counting as a whole other thing. (He definitely doesn't count in Age of Sigmar, admittedly.)

He's a little complex, but doesn't have any sympathetic qualities. He does have complicated goals, but ultimately, he'll do whatever conveniences him. Also, it's hard to argue the complexities of a man that once painted his name on a window in a virgin girl's blood for fun.

Author Intent? Ooh, okay. This is why I took so fucking long. While the books clearly write him as a cowardly shithead, Games Workshop has grown an interest in depicting him positively and have tried to market him as the true von Carstein as opposed to his more genuinely likable father Vlad. He's gotten more depictions as being cool and Age of Sigmar gives him redeeming qualities.

That said, despite GW deciding they like him for some reason, he's still written as being firmly one of the most monstrous and awful characters in the franchise. While he's treated by the advertisers and creators as likable, the actual narrative and writers clearly hate him just as much as the fanbase until Age of Sigmar.

Verdict? I'd argue that while he's heavily marketed, Mannfred is still never meant to be likable until the sequel, and even then that's in a different canon of sorts.

Edited by Beast on May 29th 2023 at 4:31:53 AM

Phillips, Chandler, Pennywise, Pennywise, Abigail, Manfred, and Norman.

Also, in the other thread, ~Lightysnake suggested that the No EP plagiarism rule be made explicit. Now, very often, HS candidates have had Monster entries before they had HS entries, and so, we have a habit of copying the monster entry, but nothing else; to our credit, we generally explicitly say that we copied the monster entry, but nothing else, so I’m not sure if it’s plagiarism, but we still need to decide whether we should still allow for that leniency in this specific thread.

I believe it was also established that you had to actually point out that you had copied the monster entry.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 21st 2019 at 8:29:33 AM

I doing the CM entry is fine. ACTUAL plagurism was stopped rather Quickly earlier, and it was said that Doing the CM entry for the "what does he do" was fine but that was the limit.

that's a good rule as well. So I think how we do it now is fine.

Edited by Kylotrope on Sep 21st 2019 at 5:37:46 AM