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In order to properly evaluate a Hate Sink candidate, the following questions must be answered.

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What is the work?

State the work and which medium it is a part of, as well as what the work is about.

Who is the character, and what do they do?

State who the character is, and what courses of action they take.

What makes them personally despicable?

State the specific reasons they are despicable, such as petty behaviour and personal villainy.

Evil Is Cool traits? Complexity? Freudian Excuse?

State whether or not the character has any traits which get in the way of them being despicable, and if so, whether said traits are de-emphasised in favour of their despicable behaviour.

Verdict?

State whether or not you believe the criteria are met.

In order for this trope to be in effect, the character in question must actually display detestable qualities, and be hated by other characters at least, or treated by the narrative like someone you are supposed to hate. The author’s declared intent cements an example, but is not needed if the narrative itself treats the character as someone who is supposed to be hated.

Haman the Agagite, for instance, displays qualities of ego, bigotry, and pettiness; additionally, there is a custom of jeering at his name’s mere mention. It goes without saying, according to this thread, that Haman was intended to be despised by the audience. Being a Draco in Leather Pants, like Draco Malfoy, or a character people Love to Hate, like Joffrey Baratheon, doesn’t preclude being a Hate Sink; being a Complete Monster, like Haman, certainly doesn't preclude this trope either.

The main concern is whether the narrative treats the character as someone intended to be despised.

With regards to this trope, actions still generally speak louder than words. The format of editing which brings up characters who don't fit the bill, doesn't generally go into enough detail with regards to what makes these characters loathsome.

The entries for this trope should focus on who does qualify, not the characters who do not.

Admittedly, this trope is less complex, but, because a Hate Sink carries out loathsome actions the same way a Complete Monster carries out evil actions, and a Magnificent Bastard carries out clever actions, it is ostensibly necessary to write these entries with a similar structure, albeit usually with a shorter paragraph.

Edited by gjjones on May 28th 2019 at 5:46:22 AM

Sep 20th 2019 at 7:17:57 PM

I heard that we're allowed to put characters from our own work up for judgment. If that's true:

What's the work?

Megami No Hanabira, a crossover between a sweet, fluffy Yuri Visual Novel series called Sono Hanabira Ni Kuchizuke Wo and Shin Megami Tensei.

This Is Gonna Suck for the main characters, considering they're up against murderous demons, the Yakuza...and this almighty prick.

Who is Father Archibald Phillips? What has he done?

The mastermind behind the demon outbreak that consumed the city of Kazamino, killing hundreds of thousands. Why did he cause the outbreak? So he and his followers, The Flock, could swoop in and save the day with their angels, winning support and popularity, and by extension power. I mean, who would deny the demands of the only ones capable of fighting back against 'freak demon outbreaks', especially when said outbreaks would have a strange tendency to happen to places that annoy the Flock? To be fair, he manages to win a substantial following, thanks to the fact he's a Consummate Liar. Due to Lucifer's machinations and the actions of a plucky group of lesbian high-schoolers, Phillips's plans fall apart.

That's the good news. The bad news is that Phillips lost his shit over it, deciding to slaughter everyone in Kazamino and Make an Example of Them. As he plunges further into madness he decides to just wipe out the planet wholesale and fuck off to Heaven to live among the angels...no, even better: he'll overthrow the Great Will and take the throne for himself!

What makes him personally despicable?

Well, besides the fact he's a misanthropic, deceitful, murderous, cowardly, sadistic asshole with a total lack of empathy, there's his ego. Ohhh, LAWDY does Phillips have an ego. At the height of his breakdown he can't go two sentences without crowing about how great he is, even as he's being pummeled. Even before that, he can without the slightest bit of trouble lie to the faces of his victims, feigning being a kind, benevolent servant of the Lord even as the demons he unleashed burn their city to the ground and slaughter their loved ones. Not even his own allies are safe from him, as he kills a group of his underlings for losing to the girls, and then when Metatron deals a well-deserved punishment to Phillips for his stunning failures, Phillips turns the tables on the Voice of God Himself and the closest thing Phillips has to a direct superior, stealing the angel's body and using it to continue his fight against the girls.

Evil Is Cool traits? Complexity? Freudian Excuse?

No way. Nanami aptly refers to him as a 'loser' in the final battle: every good thing about this man is a facade: strip it away and you have the definition of a Fake Ultimate Hero at its very worst. As a leader he's utterly incompetent, letting the situation in the city devolve at a frightening pace because of his refusal to alter his plans accordingly, allowing his underlings to die beneath an ever-growing number of demons in the city. When chewed out by his boss Metatron, Phillips blames everyone but himself. As for Freudian Excuses, we get nothing: if there really is a reason he turned out like this, it remains a mystery.

Verdict?

Keeper.

Edited by krimzonflygon2 on Sep 20th 2019 at 7:18:18 AM

Our children are our future. How's that for Nightmare Fuel?
Beast Credit to Trent Duncan from Ontario, Canada Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Credit to Trent Duncan
Sep 20th 2019 at 7:33:39 PM

So next in The Loud House fanfic examples, is yet another romantic drama fanfic, that is once again rated M and therefore goes into uncomfortable territory for some of its subject manner.

The following is a fic written by Flagg 1991, an author who as per his bio "...a mediocre author who wishes to be Stephen King at his drug-fueled best, but comes in at an average Dean Koontz." and one of the fic biggest writers in the Loud House fandom, with a lot of them dealing with Mature Subject Matter.

Cruel Summer has a teenaged Lincoln Loud romantically paired up with a minor but popular canon character named Nikki (like I said, these kind of parings are commonplace in the fandom) who have been in a long distance relationship, and seek to reconnect during a trip to summer camp. Two things stand in the way, a counsellor all but stated to be Angela Baker of the Sleepaway Camp series, and a vicious bully.

So I present to you another version Chandler.

Who is Chandler ?

So I previously brought up the version of him from an unrelated fic What is a Person Worth?, in which he's portrayed a narcissistic and vindictive bully. As I mentioned before Chandler is a canon character who more often than not is characterized as a villain or Lincoln's nemesis because he was a male Alpha Bitch type in his first appearance (despite his only other appearance in the show having him be on friendlier terms with Lincoln).

Anyways, remember when I said there was a worse version of Chandler I've seen in another fic ? This is him. This Chandler isn't just a narcissistic and vindictive bully to Lincoln, but is also a vicious incel.

What does he do ?

So rather than be a mere, but horrible, kid who gets put in his place in a fic where Lincoln has a backbone, this Chandler is budding psychopath not out of place for a Stephen King novel. Also this fics version of Lincoln is also scared of Chandler and is a constant target of his teasing. Chandler also fancies himself to be an "alpha male" who must dominate over the weak and submissive, as well as God's gift to women who can kiss and grope as he pleases with no complaint. He also has an Irrational Hatred for Lincoln that his narration sums up as him being "Weak, nerdy, unmanly, [homophobic slur expunged]. So when he sees Lincoln has a loving and beautiful girlfriend in Nikki, this offends Chandler, so he comes up with a plan to steal her for himself.

Not because he is in love or attracted to her but because she is Lincoln's girlfriend and Lincoln doesn't deserve to have someone who loves him because...well you read his reasoning above. Simply put, he wants Nikki solely because it'll hurt Lincoln. Throughout the chapters, he angrily watches as Lincoln and Nikki grow closer as a couple, and at first tries to pull a few pranks that would cause Lincoln physical harm. These always backfire with one of his friends suffering an allergic reaction, or another friend of his being burnt by a burnt marshmallow. Next Chandler tries to get personal, and starts by cornering Lincoln and "asking" him to share Nikki, with telling him "No" and getting socked in the stomach for his troubles. Chandler tries to put the moves on Nikki himself, trying to spread nasty rumours of Lincoln being a pervert, and accusing Lincoln of abusing his younger sisters, which Nikki doesn't believe and only makes her more disgusted at Chandler. So finally, Chandler tries to grab at Nikki which gets him smacked.

This infuriates Chandler to no end, after all he's is the Alpha male, so how dare this woman want Lincoln over him ? And he spends the next week just letting his hate over come him as he comes up with a plan for revenge, openly fantasizing about beating Lincoln down and doing unpleasant things to Nikki. After a week of planning, he has two friends pass off leters to Lincoln and Nikki to lure them separately into the woods where he plans to off them both. He's not gonna make it quick either; he knocks Lincoln out, ties him to a tree, covers him with honey and sets a swarm of bees on him, hoping they will sting Lincoln to death. Next he corners Nikki, and attacks her, chases her down and tries to choke her out before attempting to force himself on her. Luckily, Lincoln manages to escape his binds despite being heavily stung and tracks down Nikki's screams and attacks Chandler before he can do anything. Unfortunately Reality Ensues, and Lincoln and Nikki are too injured to continue fight Chandler. Luckily Chandler is taken by surprise and knocked out by Angela.

Chandler is ultimately arrested and Lincoln and Nikki are hospitalized; but the couple still insists on seeing the camp all the way through despite what happened with their love stronger than ever.

Complexity or Evil Is Cool ?

So like I said Chandler is often portrayed as a villain in Loud House fics and this version is no exception. In fact he might just be the worse portrayal of him as an antagonist I've seen in fics. Compared to What is a Person Worth? version of Chandler, who is a case of KidsAre (Unrealistically]) Cruel, this one is a case of Teens Are Monsters.

Not only is he an egoistical Barbaric Bully here, but is explicitly described as a sadist and shown to be a psychopath. He's also a politically incorrect incel who has an Irrational Hatred for Lincoln that amounts to him thinking Lincoln is an inferior male, often degrading him as being "weak, a nerd, a [homophobic slur expunge]. That and Chandler believes himself to be the Alpha of alpha males, whose right it is to dominate and walk all over the "lessers".

And my comparisons to him being an incel are no joke; a lot of his thought process regarding himself, other men, women and being God's gift to women, seems to be taken strait off of incel fourms. He literally, unironically, calls himself a "Chad" while trying to convince Nikki he's a "real" man. He wants Nikki not out of affection or even physical attraction, it's solely because she's Lincoln's girl and someone "weak and nerdy" like Lincoln doesn't deserve a girlfriend, especially someone like Nikki, because Chandler finds it personally emasculating. When his attempts to woo Nikki fail - sexually harassing her and trying to spread perverted rumours about Lincoln - not only can he not handle being rejected or stood up too, but he lets his hate for Lincoln and Nikki get the best of him as he tries to kill them, and tortures Lincoln with bees.

The only other antagonist is Angela, and not only is she no where near as nasty as Chandler (especially with her Serial Killer aspect being Adapted Out) she is based off her Pamela Springsteen characterization, so there's really no much to hate about her, even if she is a strict counsellor regarding Lincoln and Nikki's interactions.

Edited by Beast on Oct 10th 2019 at 3:23:38 AM

Billy: Oh my God! Michael! I'm a huge fan! You're such a big influence on my- Michael: I'm sorry, your name is Loomis ?
DemonDuckofDoom Keep away from Pumpkinhead from Some Pond in Hell Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Keep away from Pumpkinhead
Sep 20th 2019 at 8:38:54 PM

[tup] Mengele, Phillips and Chandler

Ongoing Projects
Kylotrope The Good Doctor
The Good Doctor
Sep 20th 2019 at 8:48:15 PM

[tup] to Chandler

@Shadao

Those work great! Thanks.

Cut them Down and Make them Holy, forgiven on this ground solely
AustinDR Smile and the whole world smiles. from Fresh and ready for life.
Smile and the whole world smiles.
Sep 20th 2019 at 10:19:57 PM

[tup] Chandler.

So...since it's been two weeks, and I had initially brought him up already, here's good ol' Pennywise the Dancing Clown primarily from the 2017 adaptation and its 2019 sequel.

Who is he?

Everyone knows. It was an ancient Eldritch Abomination from before the dawn of time (the book has it as the Macroverse where it was born in alongside its natural enemy Maturin, a large space turtle who vomited up the universe). Millennia ago, It arrived on Earth in a meteor-like event, residing on the grounds that would come to be called "Derry." Every 27 years, It awakens from its slumber in an event of great violence to feed on Derry's children, preferring them for their vivid imaginations, and scaring them puts salt on the meat, I guess. It was responsible for the disappearances of thousands of children throughout the long time it was active and it had once slaughtered a tribe of Native Americans who attempted to use what they called the Ritual of Chud against it.

In 1988, a young boy named Bill Denbrough crafts a paper boat for his younger brother Georgie because he was sick (actually he wasn't; he just didn't want to play with him that day). Georgie, as you know, takes the boat for a spin during a rainstorm, but the boat slips into a storm drain. It is there, It manifests as a clown called Pennywise the Dancing Clown. Pennywise claims that there was a whole carnival in the sewers as a means of gaining Georgie's trust. Georgie goes to grab the boat...but Pennywise seizes his arm and bites it off gorily. And then, he grabs Georgie and pulls him into the storm drain just to be an extra dick.

From there, we get more of his tomfoolery from scaring the Losers Club on numerous occasions to make them more tasty for his eventual feast to glut himself on. We also have him Kick the Dog constantly with Bill about his little bro. He mind controls Henry Bowers into killing his prick of a father (and a deleted scene his friends as well). He takes Beverly Marsh hostage to lure the other Losers Club members into the sewers. They overcome their fears and beat the ever living shit out of him. He spouts something about fear. The Losers make their blood oath to return to Derry if It ever resurfaced. Yadda, yadda, yadda. You'll get it if you read the 1,000+ novel or watched the 1990 miniseries.

It does return to Derry in 2016, and one of the first things it does is seemingly rescue a gay man named Adrian Mellon after some homophobes tossed him off the bridge...but then he rips into Adrian's chest with his teeth, killing him in front of his boyfriend. Then writes a message in blood for Mike to make its return known. It does some more bullshit moves such as luring a young girl with a birthmark on her face down the stalls at a ballgame by promising to remove it (well, he did technically remove it; I mean, no head would mean that he did do what he said he was going to do). The worse one, however, is taunting a grown Bill that he couldn't save another kid — this one being Dean, a boy who reminded him an awful lot of Georgie — and has him go to a hall of mirrors at a fair. He then gorily kills that boy in front of Bill just to further drive the knife of despair into him.

So, like the book and miniseries, It takes on a spiderlike form and tries to kill the Losers, succeeding at killing Eddie by impaling him, but this act causes his undoing. The Losers realize that they can make him shrink down if they forced him into taking a shape. So, they dish out belief-based insults on Pennywise, making him shrink down to a miserable, sobbing mess of flesh. Mike then removes his heart and he and the remaining Losers crush it, ending Pennywise's evil for good.

Evil Is Cool? Complexity? Mitigating factors?

So...despite being a sadistic mass murderer of children, Pennywise does have some moments where he can be genuinely charming. Well, humorous more like it. The first film had him do his signature dance as his desperate attempt to make Beverly terrified. That dance had since been a Memetic Mutation ever since it was released back in 2017. Or in Chapter Two, It has a scene where he mocks a grown up Richie on his homosexuality in an outrageously hilarious musical segment where he event has the people behind Richie sway back and forth to the song. Or then he talks about wanting to play Street Fighter with Richie as a further way to make Richie intimidated.

Complexity. Nothing there. He's just a sadistic asshole whose only goals in life are eating and sleeping.

The problem with Pennywise/It is that while he may have gained a Love to Hate status where some fans even try to humanize him, that is all audience reactions pure and simple. Film-wise? He's a vile, horrid monster who can barely pass as human.

What makes him personally despicable?

Guess.

Authorial intent

Well...there was Bill Skarsgård who basically stated that he based his take on Pennywise on hyenas and grizzly bears, and Pennywise is somehow even more dark and monstrous than the 1986 book counterpart, and definitely moreso than Curry's take on the Dancing Clown where he at the very least while a child eating monster, was largely entertaining because of Curry's Large Ham tendencies. That, and Skarsgard basically said that the reason as to why he torments the Losers Club is because he hates them largely for being the only victims of his to escape his clutches and for wounding him in the first film. Can't really find what Muschietti himself said on this take on the clown, but I think that's good enough.

Why you little-!
Sep 20th 2019 at 10:29:10 PM

As tempted as I am to give a yes to It, especially after the recent film. I feel kind of like this is the case with Freddy Kruger. The thing you pointed out with author comparing It to a grizzly bear sounds more like he is talking about It being scary rather than his overall despicable-ness.

AustinDR Smile and the whole world smiles. from Fresh and ready for life.
Smile and the whole world smiles.
Sep 20th 2019 at 10:31:44 PM

I don't really agree with the Krueger angle, to be honest. Like I mean with those moments, the idea behind them is more that he's using them to psychologically torment the characters rather than them actually being humorous. The audience can find them hilarious, but they are not in universe.

Why you little-!
Kylotrope The Good Doctor
The Good Doctor
Sep 20th 2019 at 10:51:38 PM

Massive [tup] to this version of Pennywise.

Him also being Scary is irrelevant, the whole point of Him is he's essentially the Cosmic version of a Bully.

Edited by Kylotrope on Sep 20th 2019 at 10:54:29 AM

Cut them Down and Make them Holy, forgiven on this ground solely
Sep 20th 2019 at 10:55:32 PM

Ehhh, actually I will throw in a yes too. IT hit too close to home in Chapter Two.

ElfenLiedFan90 Moysey from Jakarta,Indonesia Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Moysey
Sep 20th 2019 at 11:01:04 PM

Yeah... I think the 2019!version of IT belongs here and while Bill Skaarsgard nailed his performance, it didn't downplay the awfulness of his character of course. Tim Curry's version was Love to Hate because of his hamminess and entertaining behavior but no such thing to be found in this version of IT especially the moment where he killed Gay person... You're in for the treat that this character is meant to be hated by the audience.

Best Manchester United Manager Ever Had Current story that I made.
DemonDuckofDoom Keep away from Pumpkinhead from Some Pond in Hell Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Keep away from Pumpkinhead
Sep 20th 2019 at 11:44:39 PM

[tup] Pennywise

  • I Come in Peace: Victor Manning is the leader of the White Boys, a gang of drug dealers who hind theur crimes behind kitschy attemots at glamour. Before the start of the film, Manning killed Jack Caine's partner when he tried to bring him down, a fact he regularly taunts Caine with. Manning opens the story by bombing an FBI office to steal some drugs they seized, killing several officers in the process. Despite Caine's attempts to track him down, Manning flees to another country, last seen in a postcard he sent his nemesis.

Ongoing Projects
Shadao Surprised Satoshi
Surprised Satoshi
Sep 21st 2019 at 12:05:09 AM

The only reason Freddy lost his Hate Sink status in the sequels was because those filmmakers clearly wanted to make more scenes of Freddy killing more people in creative and hilarious ways in the dream worlds. He became the star of the films, and everyone else was just Cannon Fodder. In contrast, Pennywise's top billing doesn't change the fact that the focus was on the Losers' Club. It's their story and without them, there would be no films about Pennywise.

And because of that, Pennywise manages to be what Wes Craven wanted Freddy to be; a depraved serial killer and monster that you want to see be defeated.

Honestly, I think IT from the novel may also count as a Hate Sink (but I've never read it before) given what I heard about his actions described there. Only Tim Curry's Pennywise doesn't count... mainly because the miniseries was Lighter and Softer and thus made Pennywise into more of a troll rather than a monster who will eats the kids.

[tup]to IT aka Pennywise, Phillips and Chandler

Edited by Shadao on Sep 21st 2019 at 12:06:12 PM

Here's the Sink: Hate Sink Drafts | Hate Sink Dates | Hate Sink To Do Lists | Pending Write-Ups
AustinDR Smile and the whole world smiles. from Fresh and ready for life.
Smile and the whole world smiles.
Sep 21st 2019 at 12:15:03 AM

I can do the book counterpart later sometime today.

Why you little-!
DemonDuckofDoom Keep away from Pumpkinhead from Some Pond in Hell Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Keep away from Pumpkinhead
Sep 21st 2019 at 2:07:57 AM

New proposal, from the 1996 version of The Crucible.

Who's the candidate?

Abigail Williams, a teenage girl who had an affaor with an older man.

What does she do?

After said man, John Proctor, realizes his mistaje and dumps Abigail, she goes full Yandere. She decides to try an imorovised ritual to kill John's wife, but is caught. Living in Puritan Massavhissetts, Abigail accuses one of her parents' slaves of being a witch, getting her executed. To keep the lie going, she and her friends start accusing random people of being witches to keep their lie from being exposed, with Abigail keeping the others under her thumb through fear. She eventually accuses John himself, keaving him to be hanged when he refuses to flee the city with her.

Yep. Karma Houdini.

Personally despicable?

Manipulative, jealous loon who starts the Salem Witch Trials.

Redeeming qualities?

I'm told her play version has a Freudian Excuse, but it's absent here.

Yes, she is a teenage girl taken advantage of by a grown man. Yes, she lives in a theocratic hellhole and started the lie to save her own skin. No, neither of these facts are played for sympathy. Especially the latter, as she was caught doing a ritual she fully intended to kill somebody with.

Verdict?

[tup]

Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Sep 21st 2019 at 2:08:14 AM

Ongoing Projects
Sep 21st 2019 at 5:46:19 AM

[tup]Abigail.

The Freudian Excuse with Abigail is that her parents were killed when she was a child. It’s mostly background and doesn’t contribute much.

However, she does have Broken Bird on her character entry. Might be trouble.

Edited by k410ren on Sep 21st 2019 at 8:52:03 AM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
AustinDR Smile and the whole world smiles. from Fresh and ready for life.
Smile and the whole world smiles.
Sep 21st 2019 at 8:16:04 AM

[tup] Abigail.

Who is it?

Like I already said...an Eldritch Abomination hailing from a universe parallel to ours called the Macroverse where he also lived with the benevolent space turtle Maturin. Eventually, It arrives to Earth in an apocalyptic style event and sets up shop on the grounds that would eventually become Derry, Maine. So, you get the drift: every 27 years, It awakens from its hibernation to feed on the children of Derry. During its latest feeding cycle, it kills Georgie Denbrough as Pennywise the Dancing Clown among other victims. We get the fight, the Losers making their blood oath, the usual (well except for the group bang).

Years later he returns to seek revenge on the Losers and continues its spree of killing kiddies. It has Tom Rogan — Beverly's husband — kidnap Audrey to lure Bill and the others into its lair. It kills Eddie before trying to beg for its life when beaten but its heart is ripped out and destroyed.

What makes it personally despicable?

Guess.

Freudian Excuse? Evil Is Cool? Complexity?

While not as much of a sadistic asshole that Skarsgard's Pennywise would end up being, It is still depicted in the book as an utter narcissist who views itself as higher than any other being, besides seeing Maturin as an equal to an extent. Hence why it was surprised when it was beaten by the Losers Club and felt fear for the first time in its life. Albeit It believes that this is due to another force assisting the children, which It is proven to be 100% correct.

Authorial intent

King himself has gone on the record of saying that he chose to epitomize It as an evil Monster Clown primarily because children feared them. It's not like say Randall Flagg where his tune is that he considered Flagg to be his best villain in his rogues gallery. Pennywise/It is a being written to be so hated that the reader would want to see It go down.

Edited by AustinDR on Sep 21st 2019 at 12:16:09 PM

Why you little-!
Beast Credit to Trent Duncan from Ontario, Canada Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Credit to Trent Duncan
Sep 21st 2019 at 11:01:10 AM

Yes to the clowns.

Also [tup] Abigail.

Billy: Oh my God! Michael! I'm a huge fan! You're such a big influence on my- Michael: I'm sorry, your name is Loomis ?
Shadao Surprised Satoshi
Surprised Satoshi
Sep 21st 2019 at 11:48:07 AM

[tup] to Abigail and to novel IT.

Amusing to see novel IT beg for mercy as the Losers kill it once and for all. I think that's what missing from the miniseries; having Tim Curry voice the stop-motion spider would at least connected the audience that Pennywise and the giant Spider are one and the same.

And I'm surprised to hear that Stephen King deliberately choose a clown for IT because clowns scare children. I thought Pennywise was meant to lure children its jaws, like an angler fish, and that's why critics thought that Bill Skarsgård's Pennywise was too scary to actually lure any children.

Here's the Sink: Hate Sink Drafts | Hate Sink Dates | Hate Sink To Do Lists | Pending Write-Ups
Kylotrope The Good Doctor
The Good Doctor
Sep 21st 2019 at 11:57:32 AM

[up] it's Possible king intended for both...he was On Drugs when writing so that would seem logical.

[tup] to original! Pennywise.

Cut them Down and Make them Holy, forgiven on this ground solely
Sep 21st 2019 at 3:02:18 PM

Hey guys. I've noticed a bit of a discrepancy between the Hate Sink entries talking about characters on main pages vs. talking about characters in their character pages, usually the main page having a detailed write-up about the character's actions while the character page usually just briefly sums up what makes the character hateable (usually something like "has no redeeming traits compared to X traits to fulfill X purpose). Should the character pages get the detailed write ups or are shorter summaries fine? I'm asking because the Characters page for Mobile Suit Gundam SEED has only one (Muruta Azrael) of the three characters listed under Hate Sink on the main page have an entry for their character folder, and his entry is far more basic than the main page's description of why he qualifies. If it's in my rights to make edits involving approved candidates (and assuming that someone doesn't just make the edits right after they see this post), should Azrael's character page be adjusted to use the Hate Sink write up from the main page and the other candidates have their entires copy-pasted from the main page, or should Azrael's character page Hate Sink entry be kept the same and the other candidates be given brief summaries?

Riley1sCool How... dramatic. from On the planet. In space. Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
How... dramatic.
Sep 21st 2019 at 3:07:46 PM

[tup] Abigail, but only the movie version. Having watched the play, I wouldn't consider that one a Hate Sink at all, seeing as I was more or less Rooting for the Empire in this case, seeing as she's not only more sympathetic, but also has quite a few cool qualities. No idea whether those remain in the film.

Anyways...

Work? Warhammer Fantasy, a.k.a. Warhammer, the less popular (and in my opinion, better) original work which the More Popular Spinoff Warhammer 40,000 was made. Awesome, kickass heavy metal Dark Fantasy universe. Anyways, a while back, I did Konrad von Carstein. I don't adore him, but I like Konrad a hell of a lot more than this bastard. I didn't do him months ago, but fuck it, I'm doing it now, so let's go.

Who is Mannfred von Carstein? This absolute shithead is the brother of Konrad von Carstein, the Vampire Count of Sylvania, and is responsible for stoking the flames of his Ax-Crazy invasion. Introducing himself by betraying his "father" Vlad von Carstein (One of the most noble villains in Warhammer canon) and letting him die, he then runs away and murders some virgins with Jon Skellan. He then takes over after Konrad's death, leads a whole-ass campaign just like his brother's, dies, thankfully, and then is brought back. He skins a witch hunter, tries to revive necromancer and fellow Complete Monster Nagash, and is generally just the worst dude. He is also a total manipulative coward, rarely desiring to show his face.

The End Times hit, and Mannfred here decides to ally with the forces of Order! He then abandons his allies repeatedly, and meets up with them all for a last stand. Except no, he betrays everyone and sells them all out to Chaos to save his own skin. He then betrays his allies in battle, killing Imperial hero Balthasar Gelt via a stab to the back, and murdering the weakened, crippled wizard Teclis, before being killed by the wizard's brother Tyrion in a brief fight. Good fucking riddance.

Why is he personally despicable? Warhammer is packed to the brim with evil characters. Hell, even most of the good guys are pretty awful. However, Mannfred stands out because he's not only excessively cruel, he's a manipulative, gutless coward who betrays every single ally to gain power and protect himself. He's also a Karma Houdini who is revived and given inexplicable redeeming qualities in the sequel, Age of Sigmar.

Evil Is Cool? Redeeming qualities? Complexity? Mannfred is a decent sorcerer and rocks a cape. He's a pretty good manipulator. That said, he's still a cowardly little shit. The Total War games give him the Adaptational Badass treatment by making him a pretty decent fighter, too, but even Konrad completely outmatched him in the original canon.

No redeeming qualities until Age of Sigmar, which we're counting as a whole other thing. (He definitely doesn't count in Age of Sigmar, admittedly.)

He's a little complex, but doesn't have any sympathetic qualities. He does have complicated goals, but ultimately, he'll do whatever conveniences him. Also, it's hard to argue the complexities of a man that once painted his name on a window in a virgin girl's blood for fun.

Author Intent? Ooh, okay. This is why I took so fucking long. While the books clearly write him as a cowardly shithead, Games Workshop has grown an interest in depicting him positively and have tried to market him as the true von Carstein as opposed to his more genuinely likable father Vlad. He's gotten more depictions as being cool and Age of Sigmar gives him redeeming qualities.

That said, despite GW deciding they like him for some reason, he's still written as being firmly one of the most monstrous and awful characters in the franchise. While he's treated by the advertisers and creators as likable, the actual narrative and writers clearly hate him just as much as the fanbase until Age of Sigmar.

Verdict? I'd argue that while he's heavily marketed, Mannfred is still never meant to be likable until the sequel, and even then that's in a different canon of sorts.

Dwight, are you my Stalin?
Beast Credit to Trent Duncan from Ontario, Canada Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Credit to Trent Duncan
Sep 21st 2019 at 4:40:06 PM

So this is my fourth and last The Loud House fanfic candidate. Also written by Flagg 1991. Once again, this one is a mature rated romance drama, with a slash of horror in here due to its villain.

Set 20 Minutes into the Future Obsession is a Teacher/Student Romance story that once again focuses teenage Lincoln Loud, who takes responsibility of being the "lead" sibling when his older sisters move from the house as they grew older. Lincoln reunites with his former substitute teacher Maya Di Martino, and redevelops his old crush, which he confesses to her, and Maya, despite (and partially because of) her emotional state, slowly reciprocates his feelings. Unbeknownst to Lincoln, Maya has recently escaped from an abusive marriage, and is still recovering. And unknown to both of them her husband is still obsessed with her.

Content warning; besides sexuality being a thing in this story, this story is rated M for a reason. There's a few things keeping me from proposing this guy on the Complete Monster thread is the rule regarding fanfics; mainly because we are very unlikely to get a Serial Killer or Serial Rapist in the cartoon proper.

Flagg 1991 says he's based off of a Stephen King villain Norman Daniels of Rose Madder (a book I have never read) so I present to you Norman Derringer.

Who is Norman Derringer ?

Norman was Maya's husband and at first glance the ideal man; handsome, charming, caring, great with kids. He is also a police detective of the LAPD but after three years...Maya left him for a reason, and that reason being he turned out to be abusive as all hell. As we find out in the chapters and scenes written in his POV, he is also a viciously racist (with a special hatred for Hispanics and African Americans), homophobic, misogynistic, misanthropic, narcissistic sexual deviant, whose thought process is so full of slurs and dehumanizing comments, you honestly have to wonder how he functioned in society.

What does he do ?

When Maya originally lived in LA, she met Norman and the two seemingly fell in love...but Norman started showing some bad signs early into their marriage, such as total apathy and annoyance towards Maya's life story and family (such as the death of her mother, and trying to keep her separated from her sister Elena) to forbidding Maya to hold onto her life long religious beliefs due to his personal dislike for God and religion. Over time their sex life took a bit of a turn as he has a strangulation, bondage and humiliation fetish he put Maya through. He'd even become paranoid when she was out late, would spy on her at work, etc. After years of this, they seemingly were on the right track again when Maya became pregnant...and then they had another argument and Norman "accidentally" punched her so hard that she lost the baby. Norman didn't care about the loss and tells Maya "Be glad it wasn't you." Turns out, Norman did it on purpose because he thought Maya was sleeping around and was glad the baby was lost. He also warned Maya that if she ever tried to leave him, he'd kill her. After putting up with him for three years, Maya reached out to her sister Elena and she helped Maya escape Norman while he was asleep.

To say Norman didn't take this very well is an understatement. The reason why he didn't go after Maya immediately is because he didn't want her to think he cared. But he spent months before the story obsessing over her, keeping a personal Stalker Shrine to her, full of elicit photos of her and her underwear. To vent his frustrations, he goes after Hispanic prostitutes that remotely remind him of Maya, becoming a Serial Killer and Serial Rapist dubbed "The LA Ripper"; his MO being sexually assaulting prostitutes while beating/strangling them to death, fantasizing that he's doing this to Maya. As a cop, he is savvy enough to keep himself ahead of the LAPD with ease, even being the Detective assigned to the case. We also find out his past as a cop where he secretly murdered his previous partner for being Hispanic and daring to show authority to him. He's been keeping his "LA Ripper" schtick up for months, but in time has been getting sloppy and loosing more control, having to dispose of a couple of bodies in ways I'm not gonna detail here (but I will quote the story and say "by the time they find her, they'll think she's the remains of a campfire").

But that wasn't enough for Norman who is constantly teased by nightmares and day dreams of Maya taunting him, so he takes a leave of absence and uses his position as a cop to look for Elena to track down Maya's whereabouts. Still getting more and more enraged, Norman kills another prostitute when he blacked out, and wrecks a hotel room to blow off steam. He tracks Elena down working at a hospital, and stalks Elena for days before following her to her apartment. There he tortures Elena into revealing where Maya is living, has his way with her and leaves her to slowly die from her injuries.

During the stories climax, it has been raining heavily in Royal Woods for some time, to the point of small floodings as Norman makes his way into town and tracks down Maya's address. As he finally corners and attempts his revenge on Maya, when he's interrupted by Lincoln's arrival. Norman correctly guesses that Maya is having an affair with Lincoln, and accuses her of being a serial child molester trying to get back at him and knocks Lincoln out, preparing to execute her "boytoy" in front of her. During which he considers it "special" that he has an opportunity to kill a child. Luckily, Maya finds her inner and outer strength to fight back against Norman, eventually stabbing her husband to death.

What makes him personally deplorable ?

Did you read the above ?

Evil Is Cool-?

*laughs sarcastically* And I thought my jokes were bad.

Complexity or Authors Intent ?

Flagg 1991 seems pretty clear that we are supposed to find this guy horrible, abhorant, rooting for him to die, etc. He makes it so as he writes his POV chapters and spell out to you that he's subhuman garbage who sees other people as subhuman garbage...especially if they are black or Hispanic. On top of that he has a special hatred toward women, and makes it a point to silently dehumanize everyone around him.

He does have a passing mention Freudian Excuse of being molested by his uncle, which gives way to his rant towards Maya for having an affair with a teenaged student (that and he finds it emasculating that she loves a kid over him). In that same scene, he takes a huge amount of joy at the chance of killing who he just called a child molestation victim as "The abused become abusers." That said, none of this was written with the intent to actually humanize Norman or make him sympathetic. The authors intent remains the same.

Edited by Beast on Oct 10th 2019 at 3:28:55 AM

Billy: Oh my God! Michael! I'm a huge fan! You're such a big influence on my- Michael: I'm sorry, your name is Loomis ?
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom from The Zenith Theater Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The Draftsman of Doom
Sep 21st 2019 at 5:20:32 PM

[tup] Phillips, Chandler, Pennywise, Pennywise, Abigail, Manfred, and Norman.

Also, in the other thread, ~Lightysnake suggested that the No EP plagiarism rule be made explicit. Now, very often, HS candidates have had Monster entries before they had HS entries, and so, we have a habit of copying the monster entry, but nothing else; to our credit, we generally explicitly say that we copied the monster entry, but nothing else, so I’m not sure if it’s plagiarism, but we still need to decide whether we should still allow for that leniency in this specific thread.

[down] I believe it was also established that you had to actually point out that you had copied the monster entry.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 21st 2019 at 8:29:33 AM

Whoever did this is trying to control us, and it might be a game to him, but to us it's life or death!
Kylotrope The Good Doctor
The Good Doctor
Sep 21st 2019 at 5:26:56 PM

I doing the CM entry is fine. ACTUAL plagurism was stopped rather Quickly earlier, and it was said that Doing the CM entry for the "what does he do" was fine but that was the limit.

[up] that's a good rule as well. So I think how we do it now is fine.

Edited by Kylotrope on Sep 21st 2019 at 5:37:46 AM

Cut them Down and Make them Holy, forgiven on this ground solely

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