During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Here are my Tales of the Witchblade writeups:
Selena Lauren, from issue 3 and 4, is a former police officer, who was turned into a sex-crazy outlaw. After being arrested for coercing men into illegal acts through narcotic therapy, Selena took over Downtown of New York, protecting its inhabitans from arrest, while granting them their wildest fantasies by connecting them to her Witchblade. After agrreing to help Detective John Chimu to solve the brutal murders in exchange for full amnesty, Selena efforetlessly puts all clues together and predicts, who will be the next victim. Revealing the name of the killer to Chimu, as well as her origin as one of the test subject of Sustain drug, Selena assist him in tracking her down and then offers him to live by her side, before she uses his computer to assume the role of a detective.
Samantha, from issue 6, is a former slave, who was taken by the Romans from her family, when she was a little girl. Enduring the abuse and then escaping from Romans, Samantha found Witchblade and was trained by druids, before she decided to return to her hometown. Finding out that her father tried to organize the resistance, only to be captured by Romans and the townspeople cheering during his execution, Samantha created a plan and easily manipulated both Roman army and townspeople to slaughter each other. Forming a geniune friendship with a woman named Cecilia, Samantha tried to save her by telling her to run away, only to find her dying later, leading to Samantha revealing her motivations and crying over her death.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jul 27th 2020 at 8:05:47 PM
Good man. Does Tales have a page or anything? If so can you please start linking those when you do writeups?
Sorry, not good with linking. The few attempts that i made were failures.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jul 27th 2020 at 7:38:11 PM
Um... I'm a little confused as to how linking is proving a failure? Use the '' to italicize the title and if it's got a work page, use the Comic Book namespace to complete it. If it doesn't have a page, that's fine, I just don't like having to do formatting when the OP could have handled it.
Edit: It doesn't seem to have a page, please just italicize the title when you submit them.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 27th 2020 at 12:41:01 PM
Its just when i try its always come out unlinked, looking like "Comic Book/Witchblade", and thats it.
I'll try to like the last word Witchblade to Witchblade comic.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Music Meister, Selena Lauren, Mrs Trask, Gloria and Jerry Jasper, Gray Fox, Samantha and The Harlot.
Goku Black
Sorry dude. It's been awhile and I'm really busy this week with other stuff. When I'm free later. I'll do a rewatch.
The tales stuff will go in a Witchblade tree since their the same franchises right ?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
For linking for one word titles. Put curly brackets like {{ and }}} around the word.
Edited by miraculous on Jul 27th 2020 at 10:03:31 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
All good and I actually forgot Witchblade had a tree. I'll let Vile add his stuff when he's ready and play around with it then.
Thanks for the advise. I'll put the writeups in the drafts, when it will be unlocked.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jul 27th 2020 at 8:05:57 PM
Gray fox, Samantha, The Harlot. Cut the collector.
No one is on the drafts btw Vile.
Caesar
Easy 'Yes' to the Harlot, very easy. 'Yes' to Samantha as well. 'Cut' the Collector.
@Shadao: Unfortunately, Pre-Crisis Strange I wouldn't see keeping...he does unmask Batman and do a lot to torment him, but Strange always, always has a heavy undercurrent of smug superiority to him that really isn't justified even for how smart he is, and when he gets cocky enough to try to sell Batman's identity, he ends up getting beaten half to death for the trouble by a crime boss who doesn't want to pay.
But more than that, the quickest disqualifier is simply that Strange has a truly pathetic karmic ending, where he has pretty much gone mad trying to figure out if Wayne really IS Batman, or if Batman is just letting him think he's Wayne to throw him off, and he's last seen locked up, running in these mental circles and hoops in a babbling frenzy while guards crack jokes about it. It's an utterly humiliating, demeaning defeat of a man who's always had mental imbalances, and it pretty handily takes him out of magnificence territory.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Looking over the three CM entries, given he's always based around mentally tormenting and enslaving people, I'm gonna say he's too much of a dick anyways.
The Draftsman of Doom
Cut the Collector.
Vile can you let me know how the tree looks? I'm not familiar with the Curator and if he's just from one specific sub-story or how it should be titled, etc.
If nobody objects, I could do a rewrite for Slade. I'm familiar with the character up to his last appearance, and my write-ups have gotten a pretty good reception to date.
Go for it.
If we go chronologically or by first apperance, Curator appeared long after the Tales of the Witchblade was finished. If we go by main series and only after spin-offs, than the tree looks alright, although there is no need to link Tales of the Witchblade name, if the page for it doesn't exist.
Also, don't know if it needs to be specified, that Curator became full on main villain only in Artifacts miniseries, since in his apperances in Witchblade he merely set up the "groundwork" for his plan, so how about something like this:
The Curator is the Sole Survivor of the destruction of old universe. Filled with grief over losing his family, Curator started working on a plan to bring his universe back by destroying the new one. Taking the form of an elderly man, he manipulates events so that he can bring all 13 ancient artifacts to him. After doing so, he sets his plan in motion in Artifacts by gathering a team of villains who wielded half of the artifacts and kidnapping Jackie Estacado's, the wielder of The Darkness, and Sara Pezzini's, the wielder of Witchblade, daughter Hope, who was the last "component" in his plan to recreate his universe. Capturing most of the remaining wielders and getting all of the artifacts, he playfully talks with Hope about his motives and shows his belief that his actions will bring about a better world. In the end, Curator succeeds in wiping out the universe, only being stopped from killing Hope by Jackie managing to recreate the universe and kill the Curator before his plan could even begin.
I'm good for the rewrite but technically I'm supposed to title the sub-series even if it's within a main one, as I've been told by the mods when making edit requests.
Okay, here's a rewrite for Mr. Slade Wilson (Manu Bennett, man; great performance):
- Slade Wilson, aka Deathstroke, starts out as Oliver Queen's friend and mentor before becoming one of his most dangerous enemies. Vowing to drive Oliver to despair after their friendship falls apart, Slade, as the Big Bad of Season 2, is re-introduced as The Man Behind the Man to Brother Blood and Isabel Rochev, using the former to mass-produce Mirakuru, and having the latter usurp Oliver's company, all for Slade's purpose of exacting revenge on his former friend. Targetting Oliver's loved ones, Slade reveals Thea's true parentage, exposes Oliver's identity to Laurel, and murders Oliver's mother Moira, showing respect for her courage as he does so, all for the sake of tormenting Oliver. Unleashing a Mirakuru-empowered army to lay waste to Starling City as his masterstroke, Slade nearly succeeds in killing Oliver before being defeated. Even after reconciling with Oliver, Slade loses none of his edge, manipulating enemies and allies alike to achieve his goals. A dangerously cunning Implacable Man, Slade, whether ally or enemy to Oliver, is one of Arrow's most dynamic and capable characters.
Ok, then the tree is good.
Caesar
I approve of the rewrite!
@43: Strange being a nasty CM is true as well and probably would have been a quicker route of explaining why he doesn't hit it ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Alright, here's my next Brave and the Bold candidate...this one isn't as instantly likable or entertaining as Joker, but nonetheless I think he hits the marks, some of them even better than Mr. J
Who is the Riddler? What makes him a candidate?
Edward Nygma, better known to all as the Riddler, is a genius supercriminal based around puzzles and brainteasers.
Here lacking much of the Insufferable Genius and Complexity Addiction of his other versions, Riddler has a few minor appearances in the show that don't do much for magnificence, but it is in his two major appearances that he shifts into such territory.
In the episode "Criss Cross Conspiracy!", Riddler stages an attack on the Annual Wordy Awards, a puzzle-based awards ceremony where he breaks in on a floating jigsaw piece, sends chaos running rampant with various neat gadgets and his goons, and proclaims that "It was an honor not to be nominated!"
When Batman and Robin arrive, Riddler cheerfully doles out riddles that serve as corny puns while he puts up an actual fight against the dynamic duo, showing genuine Adaptational Badass skills for a character usually relegated to being a wimp.
Taken down by the sudden arrival of Batwoman, Riddler, taking advantage of the newer, more egotistical hero even while she gloats over him, cracks a riddle and quickly unmasks her in front of an entire audience, revealing her secret identity of Katrina Moldoff before being punched out by Batman, who remarks it was a dirty trick even for Riddler.
10 years later, Riddler has kept up his crime-spree, never imprisoned for long, and is currently launching a mass cyber attack on Gotham to swipe millions from every bank account in the city.
Confronted by what seems to be Batman, Riddler just shrugs and remarks he's fine with being imprisoned yet again, as no prison in the world can keep him for long. When Batman reveals he's come to kill Riddler, Riddler just chuckles and notes that the hero "should get better writers", as he never kills anyone, even those who deserve it....then Batman reveals that he's not actually Batman, and is in fact Katrina Moldoff inhabiting the Caped Crusader's body thanks to a magic spell, and she's come to get revenge on Riddler for unmasking her and ruining her life all those years ago.
Riddler, calmly stepping backwards from the gun at his face, reaches under his desk and clicks a secret button that electrifies the floor and knocks Katrina out. Suspending Katrina over a pool of acid, Riddler giddily says "I'll either be getting rid of the real Batman, or getting rid of Batman's body and Katrina's smug personality! I call that a win-win!"
Prevented from finishing Katrina off when the actual Batman (inhabiting Katrina's body) as well as Batgirl and Nightwing show up, Riddler once again showcases impressive fighting techniques, using his surroundings to his advantage but ultimately being overwhelmed by the superior number of heroes and taken down for the count as Batman reverses the magic spell and reclaims his body.
Riddler then returns in "Scooby-Doo! & Batman: The Brave and the Bold", a 2018 crossover film paying homage to the old crossovers between Batman and Mystery Incorporated, where he at first seems to be a Starter Villain, but is in truth the Big Bad.
Before his supervillain career a mere scientist working on a teleportation device as one Mad Scientist Professor Milo's stooges, Riddler was nearly killed when the teleportation experiment went awry, became basically a black hole, and sucked his partner Leo Scarlett inside, but Riddler was saved by Batman.
Now the present, Riddler, having long-since realized the tactical advantages of a black hole-style device, begins scheming to replicate the experiment, and comes up with a brilliant plan to do so.
Staging what seems to be a common bank robbery to lure the heroes Batman, Aquaman, and the faceless Question to the scene, Riddler actually disguises himself as one of his own goons and has the shape shifting Clayface disguise as himself to throw the heroes off. Getting into a tussle with Question that ends with them out of sight of the rest of the fight, Riddle knocks him unconscious, captures him, and disguises himself as the Question, emerging after the battle is through and fooling the heroes into believing he is still the Question.
Riddler, promising to cure Clayface's condition for his continued help, has him split into two parts: One part will remain as Riddler imprisoned in Arkham Asylum, the other part will begin staging robberies across Gotham as a ghostly apparition calling himself "the Crimson Cloak", with Riddler supplying Clayface enough knowledge about Leo Scarlett and the teleporter accident to screw with Batman's mind and make him believe that the Crimson Cloak is Scarlett come back to haunt him for failing to save him from the teleporter accident all those years ago.
Using his knowledge gleamed while disguised as the Question and consistently fooling Batman, other heroes, and even Mystery Incorporated to further ensure Clayface's robberies go off successful, Riddler secretly used the materials Clayface has been stealing to recreate the teleporter experiment, and finishes up the device right around the time Batman and Mystery Incorporated expose and take down Clayface.
Batman—only realizing Question is an imposter thanks to Aquaman happily pointing out that the normally stoic, cold Question had been much more likable recently—deduces that Question has been replaced, and slaps cuffs on him as he unmasks him as Riddler. Riddler, cheerily proclaiming that he's already won, slips out of the cuffs by revealing he had detachable hands on, and slips away from Batman and Mystery Incorporated pursuing him long enough to turn on the teleporter.
Bragging that he has deliberately created the device to function as a black hole, Riddler boasts that now he has ultimate power over all the whole world, able to destroy cities in an instant if he wishes by targeting the black hole to their location, and prepares to demonstrate this by targeting Gotham City Hall.
Luckily, the Question, apparently having escapes his capture, sneaks up on Riddler and knocks him out with a heroic punch...though at the cost of the device going out of control again without Riddler to control it, but fortunately, Batman and Mystery Incorporated work together to stop the machine, and arrest Riddler once more.
Is Riddler magnificent?
Overall, I'd say so. He's not outright Affably Evil, but his corny, cheesy as hell puns and the fact that he's almost always got a smirk on his face help give him a lot of fun personality, and he really never has any sort of breakdown or overly arrogant moments, hell even when faced with a gun to his face from Katrina-as-Batman he just scowls, stares her down, then positions himself in such a way to electrify the floor and knock her out...a minor appearance might have him let out a Big "NO!" or be relegated to a background character, but for his actual, consistent, major appearances, Riddler is shown to be an entertaining as hell Adaptational Badass to many of his other versions. Riddler is on top of his game, here.
He snarks down Batman and Katrina even when his life is on the line and turns the tables to nearly kill the latter (acid pit is of course cliche villainy but he's a Golden Age-style baddie and he's trying to drop her awfully fast, I can forgive him for not shooting her), years after screwing her over already via unmasking her, and then his entire plot in the Scooby-Doo crossover sees him fool everyone with both his Question disguise and the Crimson Cloak scheme, deliberately playing on what he knows is a weak spot for Batman to keep him off-balance and less suspicious of Question not behaving 100% normal, and he's only exposed by Aquaman being a helpful idiot and loudly boasting how happy he is that Question seems to be becoming friendlier...Riddler then reveals he had fake hands on in case he was exposed so as to slip away, and pretty much wins until Question sneaks up and KO's him.
There is a bit, uhhhh, weirdness going with Question here, though... it's never shown where he's been the whole movie or how he got out to sneak up on Riddler. Like, it's noted that Riddler had him captured somewhere while he impersonated him, but we literally see nothing of Question until he's behind Riddler and knocks him out, and then nothing is ever said about where he was or how he escaped. It's odd and probably a negative of the movie's short runtime, but it honestly kind of gives Riddler even more notability that it took something of a Deus ex Machina to take him out so that the black hole machine could properly be destroyed without Riddler to manage it.
And he ofc is beaten before his plans can succeed—both times by being knocked unconscious with an over-the-top punch—but he comes so close to completion both times and the show's episodic, serial nature doesn't allow for many The Bad Guy Wins plots, so Riddler is nonetheless impressive and notable.
Is the Riddler a bastard?
Being a supervillain and all leads Riddler to pretty common tropes...invading and causing chaos at an awards show just because he finds them an insult to "true" masters of puzzles like himself, unmasking and later trying to kill Katrina, blackmailing Clayface with a cure for his condition to work for him with zero indications that he even had the cure, and hoping to use a black hole machine to hold entire cities in his clutches under threat of destruction, yah he's bad.
It's all done in cheesy, fun Golden Age ways however, and civilian casualties are never the main focus of Riddler's schemes, nor is he even close to being the worst the show has to offer.
Final Verdict?
I think Riddler's a more technical Keeper than Joker—who is lacking in grandiose chessmaster plots but makes up for it with being fabulous and fun as hell, while Riddler hits all the manipulation and scheming marks though isn't nearly as recognizably entertaining in personality—but a Keeper nonetheless.
Edited by Ravok on Jul 27th 2020 at 12:12:15 PM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to the Riddler.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
mir you wanna do the Arrowverse!Slade expansion btw or is there a way to just reorganize it so it's general enough to explain why he counts kinda like what Lighty did with Gus prior to the Better Call Saul stuff?