During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Dimentio and Slade (too bastard)
Should probably write this up, even if I'm a tad late.
- Fate/Extella Link: Upon being summoned, Rex Magnus Karl (Or Karl der Große) resolves to achieve the dreams he had in life, and to take over the Moon Cell using a brainwashing process known as Oraclization to give the people peace and unity. Oraclizing some Servants and simply swaying others with his words and Affably Evil nature, Karl proves as intelligent in conversation as he is in conquest. Despite losing the war, Karl takes full responsibility and, even dealing with frustration and defeat, never loses his cool, always having a contingency or new plan at his disposal. Able to come within inches of victory no matter the situation or odds, Karl accepts his death with honor, earning the respect of his "sister" Altera and Hakuno Kishinami.
I'll get up another, though.
What's the work?
Scalped is the seminal comic by Jason Aaron. A crime saga set upon the Prairie Rose Reservation of South Dakota....Dashiell Bad Horse is a criminal returning home in the service of Lincoln Red Crow, tribal chief and crime lord.....and Dash is an undercover FBI agent seeking to bust Red Crow. However, the MB I'm looking at first is from a side story, issues 36 and 37. Let's talk Joseph Crane.
Who is Crane?
The former Tribal chief of the Pawatomi Reservation. Joseph becomes acquainted with Shunka, Red Crow's enforcer and chief executioner when Shunka comes down to get some business done. Crane, however, was forced out of the position for one reason: coming out of the closet. His rivals forced him out, but Crane refuses to go quietly into the night. He plans to organize a gay pride parade, which the current tribal chief, Bobby Greenwood, is disgusted by. Shunka is brought in to rough Crane up, scare him and leave
Except they don't know Shunka is himself gay and deep in the closet due to the homophobic crime industry and Lakota tribe. Joseph can tell instantly...resulting in Shunka heading to see him and in a tense moment, the two end up having sex, with Joseph telling Shunka of the history of homosexuality in his own tribe and how it was once even honored...then he shows up dead....Shunka prepares to leave Michigan...he barely knows Joseph Crane, owes him nothing...but then...he gets a crisis of conscience, remembering everything Joseph told him.
Shunka goes back, massacres the tribal council to the man...and the kicker? Crane isn't dead. The person killed was his assistant who it's implied Crane murdered. By playing to Shunka's own issues, he manipulated him into going in and slaughtering his rivals...and is well defended by his own men when Shunka arrives. Joseph feigns ignorance...after all, he was out of town. How could he possibly be connected to a murder Shunka committed? "Dear me, you haven't killed anyone, have you?" He then informs Shunka to leave and that he won't be doing business with criminals.
Shunka, furious at being used, departs, with Crane noting that "he wanted to kill me worse than anyone in his life But he didn't. And that just makes me fear him all the more."
...but by the end? Crane wins. He's unchallenged, his rivals dead and not a scrap of it can be blamed on him.
How's he operate?
In a world of thugs and criminals, Joseph Crane is classy, intelligent and a genius. He manipulates Shunka, who is a very clever hitman, manipulates his rivals...and sets up their deaths by playing to Shunka's Armored Closet Gay status, believing his death will make them complacent and make Shunka snap on them to avenge him. He's 100 percent right...and then he faces Shunka while in full control of the situation. Pass.
Any mitigating Qualities?
Crane...well, he sets up his rivals to be murdered despite having done nothing to deserve actually dying. They're homophobic pricks, but they didn't raise a finger to harm him beyond asking Shunka to intimidate him...but he did kill his comparatively innocent assistant (and framed it as a suicide...at the VERY least, he takes advantage of the death). However, he loves his tribe, he's one of the least evil people in Scalped which is full of monsters. And part of his goal are winning more acceptance for LGBT people in his tribe.
Conclusion?
I'd say Joseph Crane is a very easy keeper.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Crane.
Yes to Crane.
Yea to Crane.
The Draftsman of Doom
Cut Dimentio and Slade. Crane.
Edit: I was under the impression that the Teen Titans Slade (not TTG!Slade) was up to begin with and needed to be cut, based on the conversation.
Edited by SkyCat32 on May 12th 2020 at 11:20:40 AM
Rawr.
Riley can I have your entry in the drafts?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Cut? Slade isn't on the trope. I hope you don't mean the TTG!Slade. Now that Slade had style and cunning while not going into gross territory, it really helps that he is really funny and went out a Graceful Loser.
That version of Slade is staying right put on this trope. He’s too fucking funny to get rid of!
I hate spoilers
Is someone still working on Kiritsugu and Kotomine? Their profiles seem finished, and probably only need approval.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I understand that it's possible for a CM to be an MB, but he was only the lesser of two evils there.
EDIT: I was referring to Fate/Zero Kotomine, not F/SN. I almost forgot what EP means.
Another Edit: So Kotomine's entry covers both series. Interesting.
Edited by 227someguy on May 12th 2020 at 10:31:48 AM
Everyone look at my sandbox
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
TBH I personally felt Slade could count...the fact he's one of the few cases where the work has the audience outright Root for a CM when he was fighting trigons forces probably helps, but eh I won't lose sleep over it.
Kiritsugu was already E Ped and Kotomine was put up a while ago.
Edited by Kylotrope on May 12th 2020 at 4:30:52 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Showtime!
to Crane
Honestly, I could go either way on Slade.
to Frasier... I mean Joseph Crane.
1. Folks, are we talking about Slade or not? I've seen a lot of points I agree with and some I disagree with... PM me if you want my thoughts off the thread but his name just keeps getting brought up: can we settle this or leave it?
2. The Fate/Zero duo are going up on Sunday, that's when I do the batch. Edit: I'm assuming by "profiles" you're referring to the entries they have on the drafts page.
Edited by 43110 on May 12th 2020 at 10:34:39 AM
Yes to Crane, and I guess we could cut Dimentio.
Edited by DocSharp on May 12th 2020 at 7:35:01 AM
to Crane
And yeah as much as I love Dimentio his final moments of destroying the universe out of pure spite seems way too much of a bastard. Still I love seeing Slade posted here since he is such a cool and charming villain.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Cut Dimentio, in of itself I don't personally view his last act as mitigating....but the fact he seems to have already been Impulsive and Arrogant, in addition to that last bit takes him off.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
I hate spoilers
@43110 yes, that was what I was referring to.
Everyone look at my sandbox
ignore this, posted an EP before i finished it lol
Edited by DocSharp on May 12th 2020 at 7:57:55 AM
Well regardless there's something I'm looking forward to!
As a final word on Slade... I think it's worth moving on and forgetting that one, clearly it became more of a hot button issue than it needed to and enough people have posted indicating their positions I'm comfortable calling that as a consensus if no one pushes it.
Edited by 43110 on May 12th 2020 at 11:24:01 AM
Yeah, Slade already got an EP way back and he was downvoted, and conversation here pretty much indicates opinion isn't really changing against him. Call Slade a no-go and leave it at that.
Alright, I haven't done this in a while, so Imma see if I can de-rust myself here. Here's a game we've actually talked about previously, one that I hung up so I could wait for the plot to resolve. That... clearly isn't happening any time soon, and given that one of the game's voice actors (Rick May) passed a few weeks back, I figured it was time.
What's the work?
Team Fortress 2 is a silly team shooter made by Valve, and one of the best goddamn games ever made. There wasn't much of a plot to it at the start, but over time, Valve provided supplementary material for fans to enjoy.
To understand the plot, Imma need to outline a few factions here. You've got:
- Zepheniah Mann, an old rich asshole who was convinced to buy massive amounts of worthless land in New Mexico by his idiot twin sons, and forced them to share it with his last will and testament, knowing they'd try to kill each other over it.
- Blutarch and Redmond Mann, the aforementioned idiot twin sons, who have been fighting a pointless, century-long turf war with each other using groups of 9 crackpot mercenaries to kill one another.
- The crackpot mercenaries known as Team Fortress - Scout, Soldier, Pyro, Demoman, Heavy, Engineer, Medic, Sniper, and Spy - who end up going on zany adventures, either due to their own silliness or at the request of their bosses.
- Mann Co., Zepheniah's arms company, left to the EXCESSIVELY, GLORIOUSLY, COMPLETELY AND ABSOLUTELY NECESSARILY MANLY Hale family.
- The entire country of Australia, which has become a pseudo futuristic society where everybody is super-intelligent, mustachioed, and macho thanks to a mysterious material called Australium.
- And finally, Helen, our candidate.
Who is the Administrator?
Helen, the Administrator, is the cranky, chain-smoking announcer of the game, and the nigh-immortal mastermind behind the New Mexico turf war. Heavily implied to be Elizabeth, Zepheniah's handmaiden who was left with his estate when he died, the Administrator has been provoking the war between Blutarch and Redmond for over a century. In 1890, when Blutarch hired Radigan Conagher to build him a life extending machine, in the hopes of outlasting his brother if he couldn't kill him, the Administrator offered Radigan a supply of Australium to build one for Redmond as well. In addition, she privately had him build her another, more efficient version of the device that doesn't require as much Australium, hiring the entire Conagher family to continually improve on its design for the next century. Fast forward to 1972 - the Administrator runs TF Industries and acts as the main coordinator of the war between the two brothers, without anybody knowing she's working for both sides.
For now, let's go over the in-game update tie-in material:
- In her first official appearance during the WAR! update, she discovers that the RED Demoman and the BLU Soldier have become friends. Knowing that they might talk to each other about work and expose the fact that she's giving them both orders, she has her right-hand Miss Pauling order some fancy new weapons from Mann Co., and convinces them to kill each other for the new toys, as well as lying to them that the other had already accepted the offer. When Soldier refuses to believe Demoman would try to kill him, the Administrator gives him doctored audio of Demoman calling Soldier a civilian.
- In Meet the Director, she hires a pompous movie director to record interviews with the mercs - allegedly to create propaganda to make the mercs look good in the eyes of the public, but moreso just to spy on them and make sure they're not doing anything that could endanger her plans, while also gaining intel regarding their personal lives. When she gets all the footage she needs, she showcases her newfound leverage to the mercs to force them into line, then has Pauling murder the director in a mine shaft.
- During the events of the Pyromania update, an Easter Egg featuring the Administrator in a senate◊ reveals that she agreed to shoot a monkey into space using a rocket powered by Australium - except she sabotaged the rocket, and when it crashed, she seized the Australium for herself. When she details her plans for the Australium, the senate is so terrified that they simply let her leave.
The Administrator's plot was thrown into whack by the appearance of Gray Mann, the long lost third son of Zepheniah, who killed Blutarch and Redmond and had his robot army attack all Mann Co. facilities across the world, hoping to seize the company's supply of Australium for himself. After a long stalemate between the robots and the mercs (who at this point are in the employ of Mann Co. CEO SAXTON HAAAAAAAAAAAALE!), Gray successfully seizes control of the company due to a specific ruling in Mann Co.'s company policy, forcing both the Administrator and Pauling to go into hiding for several months...
... except, as it turns out, she not only swiped Hale's personal supply of 200k pounds of Australium, but she's been going around the world scrounging up as much of it as she can, even wiping Australia's mines clean of the stuff. Completely erasing all traces of her existence, including her census records from 1850, she has Pauling reassemble the mercs to race Gray for the last cache of Australium on the planet - but sadly, it was wasted by the Sniper's scientist father, who used it to paint a rocket ship to leave the undersea civilization of New Zealand.
While the mercs ultimately go off the rails and successfully defeat Gray and his own group of mercs, Dell Conagher/the Engineer informs the Administrator that she is stuck with the last supply of Australium there is - a small amount that, if used sparingly, can barely get her a few more months of life. While she's initially furious about it, she calms herself, reflects on her life... and downs all of it in one go, reversing her age back to the prime of her youth and reducing her lifespan down to an hour, ready to settle, as she calls it, an "old debt".
... Aaaaaaaaand it ends there. Damn it, Valve.
Is she smart?
Helen plays everybody for a chump, all the time. Some idiot is trying to outlive his rival? Give the rival immortality too. Henchmen making you paranoid? Gather their secrets as leverage. Random jackhole shows up with a robot army to claim his birthright? Steal what he's after before he even knows it's gone. She outpaces everybody - only Gray ever manages to get the drop on her, and she bounces back instantly.
The only problem is... we have no friggin' clue what she actually wants or why she does what she does. Nada, zilch, zippo. This is because Valve hasn't finished the webcomic series, and given that the last update was back in 2017, it sadly might never be completed, so we're gonna have to roll with what we've got here.
Is she a bastard?
The Administrator once gave Miss Pauling a list of people she needed dead that week. It was a phone book.
Is she charming?
As the announcer, she's loud, she's proud, and she's a big-ass barrel of fun, even offering words of praise to those who impress her. She's kinda cranky and ill-tempered, but she often tempers it with professional demeanor, and while she is sadistic and enjoys watching warfare, she is strictly pragmatic and doesn't fuck around simply to sate her bloodlust. She's not bereft of redeeming traits either - while the Administrator openly despises the mercs for being a bunch of morons, she genuinely cares about Miss Pauling, and respects the Conaghers for giving her more time than she deserves. To say nothing of her last stand, where she regains her composure after a short Villainous Breakdown, and decides to go out in style.
Now, it's rather obvious that Helen's final gambit is supposed to be absolutely horrific, given statements by the US Senate and Gray himself, but considering we don't actually see it and we likely never will... I'll give it a pass.
Verdict?
"Victory!"
Edited by DocSharp on May 13th 2020 at 4:29:17 AM
Goku Black
Crane and Helen
Dimentio and OG Slade (I think all of it together is too much. And he lacks the class of guys like cronus imo to make it here. His teen titans go version is still an easy keep though )'
@43110: Youll need to put him in a tree in the video game page with the fate grand order duo.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."