During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Abstain on Gwen.
Ack, my first EP ends up being A Controversial One.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
On the meanwhile, got another Blake and Mortimer EP. Not sure if this one can make it, but after much thinking? I think he's worth a shot.
What's the work?
For more information on the series as a whole, see Olrik's EP
.
That being said, we're going to focus on two albums of the series : S.O.S. Meteors : Mortimer in Paris and The Time Trap.
For more information on S.O.S. Meteors : Mortimer in Paris, see here.
The Time Trap (Le Piège diabolique) by the Belgian artist Edgar P. Jacobs was the ninth comic book in the Blake and Mortimer series. It appeared in book format in 1962. It directly follows the events of S.O.S. Meteors : Mortimer in Paris. This Mortimer-exclusive story stands out because well, Blake is Demoted to Extra and Olrik doesn't appears at all. However, our candidate, despite being dead? Is a surprisingly good antagonist. Who are we dealing with? From a minor antagonist in S.O.S. Meteors : Mortimer in Paris to the posthumous Big Bad of the The Time Trap, I present you... Miloch Georgevitch.
Who is Professor Miloch Georgevitch? What has he done?
S.O.S Meteors : Mortimer in Paris
A minor antagonist, Miloch is introduced when Olrik agrees to shows Mortimer around the Cirrus network as a last wish. Miloch meets Mortimer... And is a very affable fellow, having a polite, almost pleasant chat with Mortimer as he shows him around the Cirrus system, describing it as if it was a mere scientific breakthrough even though it's much more than that, helping a foreign power's purposes. Miloch is interrupted by the general, Olrik and Miloch's superior, who thought Miloch told Mortimer too much. Olrik tried point out that he was going to kill immediately Mortimer after that (and Miloch supported Olrik's decision), but the general revealed that he wants Mortimer alive, as his knowledge could be useful to their plans. Mortimer is then sent back to his cell where he will await his deportation to the foreign power.
Ultimately, what's the objective of the foreign power? With the Cirrus network, they were going to sent a Joker-venom-like fog (at first you become a Cloudcuckoolander, then, you later suffocate, and then you kick the bucket) in Paris. This would allow a easy invasion from the foreign power. I'll let you think about the death toll if Olrik, Miloch and the general aren't stopped.
Two days later, Mortimer ends up fighting Miloch over the control of the Cirrus Network. He accidentally triggers the self-destruction of the base, and remaining that close to the Cirrus Network guarantees extreme irradiation. Sadly for Miloch, Olrik and his men escape without him, and he's left alone. Despite losing his cool? Miloch manages to escape. The general likely died, and karma struck Olrik as he's finally arrested. Ironically, Miloch, the one left behind, manages to escape justice.
The Time Trap
Miloch, having regained his cool, even though he managed to escape, was heavily irradiated and is dying. He chose to do what he does best : creating. He pulls out a scientific breakthrough by creating a time machine, but instead of showing it to the entire world, Miloch plans to use it as revenge against Mortimer. However, Miloch finally dies, but accepting with grace his death.
But it's not over. Far from it. In fact, Miloch's full transition to MB has only started. Manipulating Mortimer by exploiting his curiosity, Miloch bequeathed him a scientific discovery, hidden inside a house in La Roche-Guyon and genuinely admitting that Mortimer is the only one capable of comparing with his smarts. Without suspecting a thing, Mortimer follows the instructions Miloch left him. He enters the time machine and goes back to the past...
Except that Miloch also rigged the machine after finishing it, leaving Mortimer stranded to prehistory. However, after a few problems with dinosaurs, Mortimer manages to go to...
The Middle Ages. Oops. In the middle of the Jacquerie peasants revolt. After kicking peasant and noble asses alike (while also saving a princess, a monk and inadvertently two children), Mortimer manages to regain the machine...
But ends up in the bad future this time! After kicking Skynet-wannabe ass, Mortimer finally manages to go back to the present.
Well, almost. He arrived only moments before Miloch's death. There, he discovers that Miloch rigged the machine. Overhearing him, Mortimer deduces how he could go back to the present. Mortimer tries again to go back to the present this time... And succeeds.
Problem is, just in case it happens? The machine was set to blow up, and it's only thanks to a suit he gained in the future that Mortimer survives. Even then, he's badly hurt, and recovers in the hospital.
Is he charming? Intelligent?
Truth to be told, while he doesn't manages to be as good as the other candidates in the charm department, Miloch does more than enough to count. He's genuinely Affably Evil, and in The Time Trap? He's hammy as hell, even good-natured despite the fact that he's, well, dying. Speaking of death, he accepts his impending demise, and even mentions it politely in his final letter to Mortimer.
In terms of sheer smarts, however, he takes the cake easily. He manipulated Mortimer like a fiddle in The Time Trap (Mortimer only survived through sheer chance, thanks to something Miloch couldn't have predicted at all : a suit from the Bad Future), and created a time machine, which is clearly considered something groundbreaking in the series especially when you know that it's set in the 60's. He may come off as arrogant, but it's more Smug Super than Smug Snake, and whatever he says about his smarts? He can back it up.
What is even more impressive is his lack of resources. A complete one. Olrik had men. Lady Rowana could count on her co-Big Bads. Even the Lawless siblings had each other. Miloch in The Time Trap? Had nothing but his brains. And he proved to be a very competent Big Bad. Despite being already dead.
Thinking on his feet?
Olrik trapped him in the Cirrus Network, but Miloch, with nothing but his feet, manages to escape anyway. Unlike Olrik, he never faces justice, on top of that. In The Time Trap, he's Crazy-Prepared on top of that, setting the machine to explode should Mortimer succeed in going back to the present.
What about the competition?
In The Time Trap, where Miloch had essentially made his full transition to MB candidate, Blake barely appears and Olrik doesn't appear at all. Mortimer, however, has proved time and time again that he's a Guile Hero and a Genius Bruiser, often out-gambitting the likes of Olrik. Here, despite being Miloch's only intellectual equal? He's manipulated start to finish. The one person who could've competed with Miloch is out.
Is he a bastard? Too much of a bastard?
You see the part in "helping a foreign power invade West Europe"? Miloch is bad. Add to that his revenge plan on Mortimer, which is quite nasty as well, which begins by throwing him in prehistory, where any human had essentially no chance whatsoever to survive.
That said? Errr... His villainy remains quite basic compared to the likes of Olrik or Basam-Damdu. Add to that his genuine respect for Mortimer and his Affably Evil behavior and we're good.
Mitigating factors?
He does lose his cool at the end of S.O.S. Meteors : Mortimer in Paris. That said, he regains his calm in The Time Trap and faces death with dignity.
Some argued that Miloch should've blown up the time machine the second Mortimer entered it, and that his plan was essentially Bond Villain Stupidity. I... Have to disagree. Despite hating him and wishing revenge, Miloch has also tons of respect for Mortimer. Showing to his Worthy Opponent a time machine and letting him experience it while making sure he never comes back to the present is totally in character. He's also previously shown that he could be a No-Nonsense Nemesis if he wanted to (in S.O.S. Meteors : Mortimer in Paris, he agrees with Olrik's plan to kill Mortimer as fast as possible) : showing to Mortimer something both of them loves instead of killing him immediately is clearly something Miloch chose to do.
Verdict
I'll let you guys decide.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jun 21st 2020 at 1:14:55 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Miloch
Abstain on Gwen
Sorry the Malcolm draft is taking so long: this week has been a bit hectic.
Edited by lrrose on Oct 14th 2019 at 10:39:26 AM
to Miloch
Not sure on Gwen but yes to Miloch.
"The Juice is Loose."
Hello guys I am back.
Yes to Tom, Brooks, and Miloch. I'm torn on Gwen. I love that movie and she's a great villain, but Ravok does have a point with the freak outs. I will abstain for now.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to Miloch
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Oh, yeah. Forgot to vote.
Easy, easy yes to Tom . It was one of the first tales I've ever read. Tom Thumb is brilliant, even through I've thought of him more like a Guile Hero back when I was a kid. Must be due to the Protagonist-Centered Morality though.
Sure to Brooks.
As for Gwen... Does she regains her composure after her freak-outs?
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Lizzid people!
Him indirectly having the ogre dad kill his own daughters is acknowledged in the story especially with the mother who grieved her loss.
A total has-been.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, she pulls herself back together after each flare of temper or irritation. Particularly during the outburst at the "daddy's little girl" comment, where she resumes her villainous monologue in a calmed tone after seething only a little bit.
Based on that, I lean more towards . I think her flimsy grasp on emotional impulse is more a side effect of her having to be a teenager twice over, something that is the result of an accident and she can't exactly help.
Edited by ANewMan on Oct 15th 2019 at 8:54:24 AM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Thanks for the answer...
As for my opinion on Gwen?
I'm no authority, I haven't watched the movie and didn't knew it until then.
That being said? Her freak-outs sounds basic. I've dealt with keepers who were worse in that. Olrik, my all-time favorite MB, had an epic, almost-Lelouch-worthy Villainous Breakdown
◊ at the end of The Necklace Affair. I didn't hid it in the EP. Despite that, he still went up because his magnificence overshadowed by far any mitigating factor.
As a result? Yes to Gwen.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Short-Term Projects herald
As I said, at least one of those outbursts was during her perfect-next-door-girl act, as opposed to the real Royal Pain.
Besides, reacting loudly to a minor Berserk Button isn't the same as a Villainous Breakdown over plan derailment.
Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
@ AustinDR Weird. Must have been the version I've read back when I was a kid. The daughters were Adapted Out, so that's probably why.
@ Brainulator9 Her freak-outs doesn't deter her from her goals, on top of that.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Oct 15th 2019 at 8:09:38 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
To my knowledge, a MB doesn't need to be calm and composed all the time. It certainly helps their chances but for Gwen, I'm willing to let her outbursts slide. We've had plenty of characters that have had small breaks in composure or freak outs. If a MB needed to be calm all the time, we'd have to cut most of the Ace Attorney villains for having "breakdowns".
Edited by Klavice on Oct 15th 2019 at 12:56:35 PM
Knight Bachelor
for Gwen.
On the nature of her freakouts:
Her being angry with Will when he dumps her I personally see as her more reacting to someone telling her "no" for probably the very first time in this life. Think about it: she was raised by a loyal henchman who went right back to being a henchman as soon as she was able to command him again. She's on the Hero track at Sky High, is the prettiest and most popular girl in school, Student Council President, Mr. Medula's teaching assistant. . . she's got everything. Will had nothing except the Stronghold name when he came to Sky High, and that counted for nothing at all once he got relegated to sidekick. Super Strength got him in the Hero track, but Gwen immediately took to molding everything about Will's image in high school. That this freshmen boy who she made has the gall to dump her right before Homecoming? No, not acceptable! And as mentioned, it's nebulous how much Gwen actually came to feel for Will, or if it was all just manipulation, and this still works either way. . . if she'd come to care about him, she's upset because she's losing him. If she's just been manipulating him, she's upset because that manipulation is failing.
"Daddy's Little Girl": Well, she's in the middle of a villainous monologue to the entire school and the system she's trying to bring down. . . having her henchman call her in that in that situation seriously undermines the gravitas she's going for.
The Car Seats: It's all plastic and cloth, no real "technology" her abilities can help her control. Seems a fitting Rule of Funny "weakness" for a Silver Age-style supervillain to have, getting frustrated at something so seemingly simple, but against which their fantastic superpower is useless.
Lizzid people!
Going off the arguments...I'm leaning towards a tentative "yes" for Gwen.
"The Juice is Loose."
You know what switching to a weak yes on Gwen after some thought.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Knight Bachelor
Unrelated: Have the examples for Ulric Kerensky and Hanse Davion in BattleTech been properly vetted? I might be up to doing an EP for them if not.
Goku Black
No though they would be trimmed down if they were approved since geeze thats maybe too much information.
Actually sure to Gwen upon thinking about it.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Caesar
Regardless if there are "reasons" for her outbursts, it doesn't change the fact that, for me personally, if a candidate loses their composure and is reduced to shouting and screaming over something as simple as "my dimwit sidekick isn't reading the instructions correctly," it severely damages their magnificence for me. This isn't a villain's personal Berserk Button being pushed, their plans falling apart, or a loved one being killed. This is a villain flipping out because they can't figure out to buckle a baby into a car seat. My 'No' vote remains.
'Yes' to Miloch, however.
Edited by Ravok on Oct 15th 2019 at 3:38:10 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
I'll give Gwen a nah. Good first EP though. Fun villain.
Gonna flip to side with Ravok here, my memory of the film isn’t perfect but I found her temperament a little too pronounced to ignore, not helped by the fact she has repeated issues.
I'll abstain on Gwen
Edited by G-Editor on Oct 14th 2019 at 3:12:09 AM