During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Dormin. Not only is it unclear if they are even evil, they straight up warn Wander he'd pay a terrible price and keep their word at the ending. Simply put, I don't think they are enough of a bastard.
The only point I give is killing the Colossi is a sad affair but there's too little context as to what they are for me to not oppose Domin being added.
I still see a few issues there, Elf, wanna put them in the drafts so I can edit the few errors I see?
@ Klavice:
- Banjo-Kazooie: Gruntilda "Grunty" Winkybunion is an evil witch and the nemesis of Banjo and Kazooie. In the first game, Grunty tries to use a machine to steal the beauty of Banjo's sister and scatters the Jiggies and Jinjo people throughout the land, preventing Banjo from summoning the mighty Jinjonator to stop her. In the second game, after being resurrected, Grunty ruthlessly crushes her enemies: ripping pages from her sentient spell book for planning to betray her, and killing Bottles and the Jinjo King, leaving Banjo and Kazooie without their powerful allies to stand against her. In Grunty's Revenge, she kidnaps Kazooie and forces Banjo to travel through time to save her, coming to a Near-Villain Victory with her scheme.
Edited by 43110 on Jun 1st 2019 at 9:09:14 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@43110 Sure man... All yours to play.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Hey guys I'm having some psychical health issues so I'm taking a break from this site.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@Bullman Like I said in CM thread, Get well soon Bullman!
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Hope you feel better, Bullman.
Yes to Dormin. Warning Wander that he'll suffer a terrible price and keeping his word to revive Mono helps his case in my eyes, not hurt it.
That and a character can be an MB even if their bastardness is minor, such as Cecil Turtle, the Pontiac Bandit and Black Cat. So getting a young boy to kill the Colossi, many who are just minding their own business until Wander attacks them, for the sake of being unsealed, and then posessing said boy's body is enough of being a bastard for me.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Sep 10th 2019 at 12:47:20 PM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You realize that also can mean a argument for cutting Gentleman Thief characters that don't do much but stealing, right?
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Shego and Dormin.
That's...the opposite of what I said. I was saying that somebody can be an MB even if the bastardness is minor.
I don't think there's enough evidence Dormin did anything wrong. We have no idea why they were sealed or even what the Colossi really are. Like, it's sad when they die, but the game never directly comments on the morality of it. It's really up to the player to figure that out. It's way too ambiguous for me to say Dormin are "bastards". And it's not even clear if Dormin intended to keep his body. The fate of the boy suggests maybe not. In fact, don't they specifically say they are borrowing his body? It's been a while, so I don't fully remember.
So I must ask people practice caution here.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Jun 1st 2019 at 8:36:16 PM
I mean...Dormin, I think, is made very clearly into a corrupting force. The game presents the Colossi as majestic creatures whose deaths are treated as tragic and even monstrous, as Wander becomes steadily more and more corrupted to serve as a host. That's still kinda a dick move
I think it's more nuanced than "Corruption". Like, Dormin's essence is of course gonna do some junk to mortals.
Simply put, I can't see Dormin as bastards because the game is so ambiguous and its morality so murky.
And again I'll ask: Don't they imply they'll give his body back? That they only "borrowed" it?
Edited by PolarPhantom on Jun 1st 2019 at 8:45:45 PM
does that mean your giving Dormin a yes?
I think that Dormin having Wander kill 16 innocent creatures and using his body to attempting to kill Emon and his men is still enough of a bastard in my opinion. That’s not even getting to where Dormin being a dark corrupting entity imprisoned in the Forbidden Lands for a reason
By the wording I'm gonna guess that's an unofficial yes.
Caesar
Going to say 'Yes' to the Dormin. Even though there is interpretation to be had, in the end? They're manipulating a teenager into killing a series of beasts that are presented as just minding their own business, and their deaths are treated firmly tragically. Even if the Dormin has truthfully heroic motives, they still made Wander do something horrible for their own benefit. That's more than enough for me.
Now, I have something to discuss about a character who was approved during my time away....seeing as I only just saw this character has an entry and know the work a bit, having seen the season in question as well....I would like to at least bring up my thoughts. From South Park, Leslie Meyers.
- Leslie Meyers is a sentient ad and the Big Bad of season 19, masterminding the plot to take over the titular town for her kind. Masquerading as a 4th grader in South Park Elementary, she introduces everyone to PC Principal having him force the residents to gentrify their town. This results in the price of living in South Park to increase, causing people who can't afford living there to move out while her kind discreetly takes over having done so with many other towns beforehand. After being captured by the newsmen and exposed as an ad by Jimmy Valmer, she persuades Jimmy into helping her escape, before beating him unconscious and ordering Nathan to kill him. She then frames PC Principal for all her crimes and manipulates Kyle Broflovski into convincing everyone to leave South Park to find PC Principal, while she obtains complete control of their town.
Leslie is smart, yes, and maintains her cool and everything but....I have a few issues with her, namely? Her personality. Which is to say, she doesn't have much.
When she's "Leslie Meyers", she acts like a cute little girl and manipulates people, but....for her actual, genuine, "magnificent" personality, that's Beneath the Mask? She's an emotionless, bland robot with like 3 lines. Putting on an act and manipulating others is one thing, but when the candidate's actual personality is a brick whose lines consist of "Take care of him" and "Ads are everywhere. Every time you block us, we get smarter. Every time you try to stop us, we are more. If one plan fails, we will plan another. You will never be rid of ads.", both delivered in the most monotone voice with a robotic look? It affects the "charming" part of being an MB. Being a Manipulative Bastard is one thing, but when you're entire character is a mask?
Secondly, Leslie is never said to be acting on her own or even as a leader of the ads. Every character behaves as if Leslie is just a representative of the greater ad goals, and that she's part of a Hive Mind of ads that all seek domination. She's not stated to be a special case of intelligence in ads, just that she has a human form, and she's not treated as the be-all, end-all leader paving the way, just an ad in human-form acting out their mission. Notably, Nathan never treats Leslie as a single entity, but rather refers to her as "the ads."
Finally? The ads' final plan isn't really listed....which involves the "gentrification" of the entire Earth. In layman's terms, the ads want to take over the Earth one city at a time until the entire world is theirs, at which point they will make everything on Earth too expensive for humans to buy so humanity can't even afford to live and will eventually die out, leaving the ads to rule. We've had MB villains with far worse schemes but still, I thought that bore mentioning.
I'm not necessarily moving to cut Leslie, but I do want to hear others' thoughts on the topic. To me, Leslie lacks the charm of an MB, and her "independence" is seriously in question, because though she is the "face" of the ads, every indication is that she's just one extension of the "ads" as a concept and not actually the ringleader.
Edited by Ravok on Jun 1st 2019 at 1:44:25 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Yeeah, I'm for a cut.
Frankly, I'm sick and tired of seeing these gross-out, juvenile comedies up so much anyways.
As we discussed in PM, I'm all for a cut. She's not going for the reasons I thought she would be but there are enough points against her inclusion I'm all for getting rid of her.
Sure to Dormin. Zap Leslie.
Wouldn't the fact that Leslie can manipulate people alone show a personality? GD Vs aren't manipulative. Even if Leslie is acting on the ads behalf, why should that cut her? This isn't CM where moral agency is a big deal.
Lizzid people!
Sure, I'm fine with cutting Leslie on that note.
Not so much the agency but what bugs me is that she just seems to be the representative of a larger collective. From the sounds of it, it seems like a 1984 situation where the character is part of a group where the knowledge and resources are pretty well cut out for them.
I also always had a problem with characters' whose plans fall apart with Fridge Logic. Do the ads not need humanity around to have someone to make revenue from? I don't claim to be an expert on South Park's world rules but I presume there goal should be something along those lines. If they cause mankind's extinction, what do they get from being the ruling "species" on Earth? It's like when iZombie tried to spin Chase Graves as an intelligent Well-Intentioned Extremist... which lasts about as long as it takes to remember he screwed himself over in the first place and that's the whole reason he became more villainous.
Lizzid people!
Doesn't help that thinking back on it, a majority of the adults from the show are idiots who are easy to trick.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
I can go either way with Leslie. But if she's a cut, I won't lose my sleep from it. As for now, I lean a cut.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Forgot to say sure to all of the candidates I missed. Have to admit that Shego one give me a bit of hesitation and same with Agreggor in the first place because you know... Baby murder are a bit of my pet peeve and all but oh well.
Anyways, revised writeup with corrected grammar errors. Feel free to take a stab if you want:
Feedback is appreciated as always. Jinas still goes in the bottom of Excella for the trees
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jun 1st 2019 at 1:29:35 AM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."