During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
That was my initial concern too. But upon reviewing it, it seems there's more to it.
The main reason why he so stubbornly stuck around (aside from money) was because of his rigorous Code of Honor of "finishing the contract" and several times refused to be swayed by the Hero. It's only when he got confirmation the contract was broken that he turned against Sek-Duat.
Here's a quote from him:
So it's not necessarily that he was trusting of Sek-Duat, and more that he was firmly abiding by his own code.
EDIT: I'll also add that he had one leg over Sek-Duat too. Zhoom saw through the Hero from the start and knew they were working with the rebels. While Sek-Duat was completely clueless about the Hero pulling Double Agent and had no idea who the traitor was, so decided to eliminate them both for safe measure.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Cool thanks!
Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 3rd 2022 at 7:15:17 AM
Cool, with that I'm good!
Alright I’m back from my Miami trip and luckily for me a my dad power is back on. Anywho I’ll start off by voting ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Girl, Loxley, and Zhoom
Goku Black
Loxley.
Has anybody seen the Beverly Hills Cops films? If so, can Ellis De Wald count as a crossover?
Woagh
Ultimate Moral Compass
Loxley and Zhoom
So before I can get into some horror-themed EPs, I've been a bit behind on a certain indie game from last month.
What’s the Work
Freedom Planet 2 is the long awaited sequel to the hit 2014 indie game.
When an ancient water dragon named Queen Merga awakens from her slumber with plans of destroying the world of Avalice out of revenge, it’s up to our heroes Lilac, Carol, and Milla to put a stop to her plans.
Who is She?
Corazon "Cory" Tea (voiced by Ruby Rose herself, Lindsay Jones), Carol’s older sister, is a pirate working for Merga.
What does she do?
Previously hiring herself out to several criminals just for the thrill of flying, Cory often uses her hundreds of drones to distract her opponents, taking their goods as she gets away undetected. Working with Merga to ensure her plan succeeds, Cory is introduced stealing the Pangu AI needed to activate Bakunawa, a dragon that will suck all the energy from the moon and destroy it. When the gang encounter her, Cory allows them to take the Pangu back, but tricks them into jumping off her airship using a decoy.
Able to make quick getaways from our heroines as she successfully assists Merga in her plans to awaken Bakunawa, in Lilac’s story, when Cory finally loses to her during their duel, she straight up quits Merga’s forces and chooses to stay behind to talk with her sister.
In Carol’s path, Cory is forced by Merga to kill her, despite that not being part of their deal. Upon her defeat, Cory reveals that she figured out Merga’s plan to destroy Avalice, and figured that she could at least make a deal to ensure Carol's protection. But when Merga betrays Cory by revealing that she lied about protecting Carol, Cory shows her love for her sister by taking a blast meant for her, knocking herself out in the process and facing harsh injuries.
After Merga’s defeated, Cory shows herself to be okay with her punishment of 6-8 months of community service.
Is she charming? Intelligent? Able to think on her feet?
Cory’s a skilled pirate, able to plunder countless items from the most secure locations and make smart getaways, often by dropping replicas off her ship in order to lure her enemies away, and always manages to outwit our heroes every time they encounter her.
And while it turns out that Merga planned to kill her and everyone else serving her once she’s achieved her plan, Cory changes gears and does what she can to save her sister’s life, denying her former boss the satisfaction and assisting in the saving of the world in the process. And even at the end she owes up to the fact that she’s a criminal and casually accepts her punishment.
Carol’s path also has a moment where she comically expresses her extreme distaste for raisins (a side effect from one of Milla’s medicines given to her after her sacrifice), but this doesn’t detract from her cool factor. The game’s pretty comedic, and Cory’s able to recover and return to normal by the game’s final cutscene. If Lupin can have some moments of embarrassment and comical antics, so can Cory.
Is she a bitch? Too much of one?
Cory’s a pirate who plunders and steals anything she can, and is an active antagonist who sides with Merga knowing that the world will be in ruins.
But despite everything, Cory deeply cares for Carol, willing to give up her own life to protect her.
Verdict?
I think she keeps
Edited by therealjackieboy on Oct 3rd 2022 at 8:53:51 AM
"No running in the halls!"
Goku Black
Zhoom and Cory
Bloody migraines kept me offline AGAIN. For the sake of avoiding stress, I hope you'll forgive me if I just do the past day and move on.
for Red Stick, the Girl, Loxley, Zhoom, and Cory.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for Nolan.
Edited by TellAll111 on Oct 3rd 2022 at 9:01:16 AM
Showtime!
to Zhoom and Cory
Oof, sorry to hear Tell and hope you're back feeling 100%! Yes to Cory!
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Loxley, Zhoom and Cory. Likewise super glad you're feeling better, Tell!
Not a spoopy one this time, but one I've long been meaning to get to, one of my favorite comic book villains from one of the GOAT comic book cartoons!
What's the work,?
Spider-Man: The Animated Series classic 90s superhero cartoon detailing stories and adventures of everyone's favorite webhead in what many consider to be the defining adaptation of the character.
Who is Mysterio? What makes him a candidate?
Quentin Beck was once a special effects expert for film, considered one of the best. But, in an attempt to show forth a better explosion during an action sequence, Beck used an illegal mortar device that nearly killed several of the crew, and was quickly exposed and arrested by Spider-Man.
Blaming Spider-Man for ruining his career and passion, Beck became "Mysterio", a bubble-headed Master of Illusion who swore vengeance on Spidey and developed a clever plan over the course of months to take him down.
Crafting technology to perfectly imitate Spider-Man's powers, Mysterio disguises himself as the webhead and pulls off a variety of robberies, outwitting even Spider-Man himself when he confronts the imposter. Framing Spidey for it all and promising to the world as Mysterio that he will take down the eeeeevil Spider-Man, Mysterio continually outdoes Spider-Man with his mixture of illusions and real threats, culminating in Spidey researching and discovering Mysterio's likely identity as Beck.
Spidey tries to ambush Mysterio at his lair of special effects Wonder Studios, but Mysterio planned for Spidey to discover him and ensnares the hero with a variety of illusions and technological tricks. Further capturing J. Jonah Jameson and Terri Lee when they show up on the scene, Mysterio promises to pay Spidey back for ruining him, leading to one of the best lines in the series:
Mysterio: "Yes, that's what my psychiatrist said. But you know what? His sessions never made me feel this good!''"
Nearly finishing Spider-Man off once and for all, Mysterio is only beaten thanks to the hero's trusty Spider-Sense, and is thrown in jail. Later, Mysterio becomes part of the "Insidious Six" to destroy Spider-Man once and for all, and his illusions and technology supply priceless assistance to the villains in capturing and nearly destroying Spider-Man.
After the Six disband, Mysterio lays low and avoids capture for awhile, soon enough finding the viciously scarred, deformed movie star Miranda Wilson barely alive near one of his lairs. Learning that she was grievously wounded during a film and self-exiled thanks to her new deformities, Mysterio takes Miranda in and outfits her with new technology, striking a deal with Kingpin for further robotics that enable Mysterio to keep Miranda alive.
Pulling off further robberies to fund more research into a permanent solution for Miranda—having promised the woman he would find a way to perform a body-swap for her to live again in a youthful, beautiful body—Mysterio is captured by Spider-Man thanks solely to Spidey knowing his deli locations (lol), and thrown in prison. Later, when Mary Jane Watson is kidnapped by Miranda using Mysterio tech, Spidey checks in on Mysterio in prison and plants a tracker on him to make sure he's staying in prison.
Mysterio immediately sees through the plant and, using its battery plus tech he smuggled in with skin-colored wrappings, he uses a single illusion to escape prison and become Mysterio again, pursuing Spider-Man after Miranda. Now, Mysterio...actually allies with Spider-Man when they run into his greatest scheme yet—robotic duplicates of Spidey's rogues that Mysterio planned to one day use to wipe the hero out—that Miranda has taken over and sicced on intruders. Mysterio's creations are so great that Spidey only beats them with Mysterio's help, who wants to get through all of the defenses and reach Miranda before she can perform a haphazard body swap with Mary Jane.
Once they confront Miranda, Mysterio reveals the truth: he never had any expectation of being able to swap Miranda's mind into a new body, calling it a "scientific impossibility." He saves Mary Jane before the attempted swap by Miranda kills the girl, letting Spidey save her while Mysterio reveals to Miranda that he simply wanted to give her hope and something to live for beause Mysterio has fallen in love with her.
Miranda, refusing to believe anyone could love her hideous body, sets Mysterio's base to self destruct, urging everyone to flee while she stays and dies. And while Spidey and MJ get out, Mysterio refuses to leave Miranda's side, proving his love for her is true as the base takes them both down with it in its destruction.
Is Mysterio magnificent?
Yee, he's the Large Ham Master of Illusion after all! Mysterio constantly fools Spidey and everyone around him with his illusions and tech, utilizing simple "parlor tricks" to great effect in outwitting law enforcement, escaping prison, framing Spider-Man, etc. He's a clever fella, and his final episode entailing not only an Enemy Mine with Spider-Man to save Mary Jane but also choosing to die with Miranda to show he's fallen for her? Very grand way for him to end after being a thorn in Spidey's side the rest of the show.
Is he a bastard?
Yep, supervillain who robs places and tries to kill Spider-Man and other innocents, which is bog standard villainy for his rogues but still, bad enough!
Final Verdict?
Yep!
Edited by Ravok on Oct 3rd 2022 at 9:53:56 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Goku Black
Mysterio
Do you think Green Goblin from their could keep? He was pretty cool and intelligent from memory.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Just popping in to say I created a Clash of the Titans tree at the Drafts (and the remake was 2010, not 2011):
- Clash of the Titans films:
- 1981 original: Medusa, twisted into a monster by the gods...
- 2010 remake: Medusa, violated by Poseidon in Athena's temple and cursed to be a monster...
Maybe just do a header with Medusa and pothole it in the YMMV entries? I'll leave that up to you.
I also switched the word order for the 2010 one so her name is first. Arbitrary maybe, but I always like to have the name of the candidate first if possible.
That's fine; like I said, I'll leave that part up to you.
Edited by ACW on Oct 3rd 2022 at 1:21:11 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Ultimate Moral Compass
Mysterio
Yes to Mysetrio! Glad ol' fish bowl head's making it for once! I'm fine with the changes ACW but I don't think she needs to get her name in the header, IIRC the remake continuity has at least one more character someone wanted to consider anyways.
to Mysterio
Yes to Mr. Beck.
Lies and Violence!
Mysterio, Red Stick, the Girl, Loxley, Zhoom, Cory.
Batman: The Long Halloween is a two-part animated adaptation of the comic of the same name, detailing the fall of Gotham's crime families at the hands of the mysterious serial killer Holiday and the new supervillain Two-Face. I've already gotten up those two, but I'm realizing now that I may have unfairly left out a character from the late Naya Rivera.
Who is Catwoman?
The abandoned, illegitimate daughter of Gotham's criminal kingpin, Carmine "The Roman" Falcone, Selina Kyle set out to ruin her father for abandoning her and her mother—and maybe find out what the latter's name actually was, while she's at it. To do so she becomes the supervillain Catwoman and begins a career of high-stakes robberies, but along the way falls in love with Gotham's crusading dark knight.
Introduced in the movie spying on Batman's meeting with Commissioner Gordon, Selina lures him into a chase across the rooftops to where she's discovered Falcone is hiding his blood money, and suggests they simply burn the stacks to cinders when they realize the police can't seize it without Falcone using his connections to get it all back.
From then on, Selina's main role (aside from the love interest with a halfhearted "we can't be together" plot that's dropped so fast you forget it exists) is last-minute rescues:
- Helps Batman fight of some Triad goons.
- Saves Bruce from Poison Ivy's mind control, discerning the vines she's using to physically control him and clawing them to shreds.
- Gets Bruce back to Wayne Manor safely when he's gassed by Scarecrow.
- Spies on Falcone hiring a hitman to kill the Dents, intervening at the last minute.
- Ambushes Falcone to stop him from shooting Batman.
- Fights the rest of the rogues when Two-Face assaults Falcone's penthouse.
To make a long story short, Falcone is mortally wounded and, seeing Selina unmasked, whispers her mother's name, and she leaves without another word. The last we see of her she's living with Bruce again, satisfied that she's gotten all she wanted out of the crime lord.
Mitigating issues?
Pretty standard Catwoman, a master thief who's never not stealing (even swiping Bruce's watch while they're in the middle of breaking up) and always comes in clutch to save the day. And even though she's on the side of the angels for the entire movie, it's clear she has no concerns with killing, having to be stopped by Harvey from murdering Falcone's hitman in cold blood.
The only bad play she makes is accidentally shouting Bruce's name when Batman suddenly drops in on her conversation with Falcone's son, but... eh, he dies right after, the secret identity remains secure 
Yes to Mysterio, Red Stick, the Girl, Loxley, Zhoom, Cory and Selena/Catwoman. Still sick from COVID-19 thanks for all the well wishes.
Edited by Klavice on Oct 3rd 2022 at 1:07:43 AM
My only problem with Selina is from what I'm remembering it doesn't show her stealing from anyone who doesn't deserve it, aside from pilfering Bruce's watch, which seems more playful than full on malicious. Are there any other people she steals from in the movie?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lies and Violence!
A few people from Falcone’s yacht party who seem to be uninvolved in the illegal side of his business.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Zhoom, Cory and Mysterio. Leaning towards yes on Catwoman as well. I was going to do her when I did the Hush and Hunted versions, but I didn't want to do three versions of the same character in a row.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Thanks for reminding me Emerald, Catwoman.
Yes to Loxley, my only concern for Zhoom would be that for his tenure as a “bastard” it sounds like he was being played by Sek-Duat and when he comes out from under his thumb seems to have moved move to Guile Hero territory. Mind countering that for me Snowy?