During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The MILF Virus
So I decided this guy is worth relooking at in Fire Emblem and after asking Hamburger about his opinion for this guy, I got the go. Let's talk Fire Emblem: Awakening, the game that saved the series, and one of the major villains of the game, Yen'fay.
What is the setting?
Fire Emblem: Awakening is the first Fire Emblem game in the 3DS and supposedly Fire Emblem's potential Swan Song had it not been for it's great success through changes such as innovating it's class and support system as well as creating a variety of wackier but well in-depth cast. Taking place many centuries after the original Fire Emblem games, the story revolves around the amnesiac tactician Robin, and his adventures with the prince of Ylisse Prince Chrom, and his own personal unit called the Shepards, as they deal with the different invading kingdoms planning to take Ylisse and a new threat called the Risen, undead monsters that shows up in mysterious portals.
For my candidate we'll be discussing the 2nd arc of the story, the Valmese Empire arc revolving around the Conqueror Walhart trying to take Ylisse, and the Shepards trying to stop it and usurp the mad dictator. While doing so, they end up encountering a swordswoman name Say'ri, who was the former princess of a kingdom taken by Walhart called Chon'sin. And during this conquest, her brother end up joining the conqueror as part of his army, our candidate who secretly had bigger plans and burdens to resolve. I present the former Chon'sin ruler, Yen'fay.
Who is Yen'fay and what does he do?
The former ruler of Chon'sin, Yen'fay was a legendaryly powerful swordsman who was famous all over the world, to the point according to Walhart, he was the only enemy who manage to survive a hit from Walhart, this earned the respect of the conqueror and desiring to recruit the Chon'sin ruler to his side. While yielding to the offer initially, when Walhart's right-hand Excellus blackmails him by threatening Say'ri's, Yen'fay ultimately relent and became one of Walhart's main generals. With his new task, Yen'fay was an incredibly feared warrior who frequently leads a the army while accompanying Walhart who normally stands alone, effective becoming his new right-hand.
However beneath the surface the truth is more complicated. While Yen'fay was willing to fight Walhart's Empire till the bitter end, Excellus decided to force him to heel by threatening Say'ri's life, claiming if he doesn't fight for the Conqueror he'll have her killed. With little he could do at the moment, Yen'fay relented which is why he became part of the army, however he wasn't going to let it standby and decide to come up with his own scheme to free her and his kingdom, even if it meant his own death.
Having bid his time for an army that may stand-up against Walhart, Yen'fay began recruiting mang of his clansmen to his army as part to have people he can trust around and unleash an ambush to his warden once the time is right. Having been impress by the Ylisse army led by Chrom, and weakening Walhart's many different armies, particularly them defeating Yen'fay saw this as a chance to potentially get back on his enemies especially when many of Walhart's army consist of his people and they were able to keep Say'ri safe.
This takes place in Chapter 18 where the Ylisse army decide to take the fight in Walhart's main forces and decided to pick Yen'fay's over Walhart's by luring him into an active volcano to take him down. Yen'fay seemingly takes the bait, but considering he doesn't feel any pain in the fire the move backfire (quiet literally), but they still press on since the volcano does still take down his forces, in which they engage him in a fierce battle in the volcano where Yen'fay's swordmastery is well displayed, being so fast and powerful in all range, you can easily units against him if not carefully.. Even better this is not him going all out, it's revealed if Say'ri challenges him that he was holding back and was unsure he was so, until his death where postmortem the whole situation with Excellus taking Say'ri hostage was revealed and essentially Yen'fay committed Suicide by Cop in a last bid attempt to protect her.
Seemingly mocked for his pointless sacrifice by Excellus, Yen'fay true plan is revealed and the Cho'sin soldiers among their ranks has rebelled and turn against Walhart's army during the climatic battle to overthrow the conqueror, throwing chaos in his forces. As Say'ri figured out, Yen'fay's spirit and sacrifice has riled up his people and this was what else he was intending, ultimately giving the Ylisse army to take on Walhart and defeat them, succeeding in achieving a goal that seemed impossible despite all his sacrifices.
As for the recruitable Yen'fay later down the line, that Yen'fay is not the same one in the main story. He's the alternate future version that travelled back in time along with Lucina and his companions, although his was accidental. We saw the scenario where Yen'fay didn't go through the plan the original one did and not made the sacrifices, ultimately ending up a depress warrior seeking death after failing to protect his sister. So considering all that, this at least show Yen'fay he did the best he could in what was given and made it work even if it mean sacrificing his own life.
Is he Magnificent?
Absolutely, a badass general and swordman, Yen'fay screams cool with a honorable if ruthless personality that is both threatening yet worth respecting. Add in Yen'fay getting one over his blackmailer Excellus in the best way possible, freeing Say'ri from his clutches and getting the soldiers Chon'sin to turn back to Say'ri side leading to the fall of Walhart's army and Excellus meeting his demise, extra points if Say'ri gets it, and we got a massive case for this to qualify.
Plus as we saw with his alternative future self, this Yen'fay end up making the best choices he got considering his circumstances, saving his sister and his nation in comparison where he tried to fight back with honor only for it to fail and turn him into a Death Seeker.
Too Much of a Bastard?
Yen'fay is a dangerous and powerful warrior who aligned with a dictator and allowed his kingdom to be ruled under his reign, but considering the little choices Yen'fay had in the matter, it's less a traitorous scumbag and more of him salvaging as much as he can in the situation he's in. Plus while an enemy general Yen'fay does still show a sense of honor and respect to his opposition making it clear he doesn't enjoy what he's doing, even if he'll still cut down armies trying to fight for their freedom.
Final Verdict:
I say as a really cool and badass bad guy who ultimately end up salvaging his problem as much as he could, this man is a keeper.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Yen'fay sounds a yes!
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Yen'day
Another for Kirk Thornton?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
So wait Ao Guang decides to create a Tsunami to spite his adversary, and he's enforcing a system where the poor and middle-class are subjugated? That's seeming a bit too bad for me. One of the reasons we cut Dimentio was because his end was a Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum. This is feeling similar (even if the character isn't a CM). I think I'm a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
.
Edit: Yen'fay.
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 29th 2022 at 1:14:08 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Is it Fantastic Elitism or does he think the world's best ruled by dragons and it's damned anyways without their guidance?
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
Since we're discussing Fire Emblem yet again... I wonder if the Spotpass Paralogues from Awakening are canon.
Other than that, to Yen'fay
Edited by Siegfried1337 on Aug 29th 2022 at 10:14:59 AM
MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates
I mean from what I'm reading in the EP he is a Dragon. It might still be the case that he feels there rule is best, which I guess is mitigating, but it's different than if he is in awe of them.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Yes to Yen’fay; switch to abstain on Guang.
Alright, so altercation that'll be needed:
- Wrath of the Ninja (1989): This condensed version of Yōtōden removes Ranmaru Mori's more rampant sadism, playing him up as a brilliant demon who disguises himself as a young man while manipulating the entire war in Japan. Using Oda Nobunaga and the Oboro ninja as puppets, Ranmaru uses Nobunaga's excesses to wipe out ninja clans so the survivors seek vengeance while following a prophecy and using sacred weapons Ranmaru himself created, to gain enough negative energy to free his fellow demons. Ranmaru even sneaks a mole into their camp as a demon disguised as a monk who has no idea of his true nature, his plans going off perfectly until almost the very end.
Now the thing is... that particular incarnation does not downplay his "rampant sadism" as I just watched the film and talked it over with Lighty. It's a case of the villain presenting as this trope until the finish line... when he starts boasting how he manipulated Nobunaga's ninja genocide campaign, laughs at how "stupid" the heroes were and begins trying to summon his brethren to Kill All Humans (oddly changed to the Underworld rather than the Moon).
In his last fight he really gets more unpleasant, maintaining a smug tone, hatefully telling one hero who tells Ramaru to kill him rather than the heroine "Once I have killed this one, I will fight you and kill you slowly." His bragging about the negative emotions he's gathered through Nobunaga's campaign also comes back to bite him in the ass, with the third hero discovering how to seal his portal to the netherworld through his dialogue.
He dies screaming in pain, not gonna dock him too many points for that as he's... well, in intense pain at the time but smart as Ranmaru is I don't see it for a guy who's spent a millennia weaving prophecies that involve eradication of entire villages so he can end the world and winds up found out because he talks too much, while ironically mocking how "dumb" the heroes are. He's got it until the finale and then gets a bit too excited about his (very bad) goal coming to fruition.
Gonna pass the floor to Lighty as this removes two of the three versions of him but there's also the manga I haven't read and something else to talk about!
Professor Gigachad
I am guessing that you are advocating for him to be cut?
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Kinda... to my understanding the manga version actually lacks the rampant sadism but again, haven't read it. So more of a move than removal.
Cut the movie’s Ranmaru.
Goku Black
Move to manga.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Professor Gigachad
I mean should we be putting up his manga version if you haven't read it?
Cut movie version though at least.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Not what I'm suggesting Ordeaux, as I said in my post, I'll be deferring to Lighty on the manga as he has read it.
Cut movie Ramaaru.
Regarding Yen'Fe, I'm conflicted because of the rule where a candidate has to count on all routes. While I'm aware Awakening doesn't have branching paths like Three Houses does, the alternate universe version of Yen'Fe flunks the test. I'm pretty sure between the Darkest Timeline keepers and Walhart's defeat being canon we're in the clear, but I wanted to make 100% of that before giving my vote.
Goku Black
Uh I think outright alternate universes are okay? Just you know not like the actual playable paths.
I'll switch to abstain on Guang till I get a response.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Agree with mir there.
Professor Gigachad
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Ah I see, I will just wait for Lighty then.
I'm fine with just handing off Better Call Saul to other tropers. I'm a bit busy ATM, but I'll probably be back with a new candidate from The Orville and John Malkovich's Ripley in a week or two.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
@~Ravok Well there you go then. How you want to proceed?
We'll proceed by please not rushing him. I know we're all excited for this one but he's had a lot of pressure put on him. Let's kindly allow him to have fun talking about a show he liked when he's ready.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Cool, thanks for understanding!
Edited by 43110 on Aug 29th 2022 at 2:44:25 PM
It wasn't meant to be pressure. I just wanted to alert him to what Morgen said in case he wasn't aware. He's totally free to proceed at his own pace.
Caesar
Well shit Morgen, only if you're absolutely sure, you absolutely say so if you want someone before I get to them, yours by right!
I'm definitely gonna need some time here, 3 of the characters are fucking massive and I have not properly refreshed lmao I'll try to open with someone tonight, though. Thanks for the patience, everyone!
Edited by Ravok on Aug 29th 2022 at 11:47:19 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Yes to Vicious, Sosa, Mosley, Rancho, Constantine, & Guang.
Pinging ~Morgenthaler for Ravok’s post last page (there’s a bug where pings don’t work if there’s punctuation next to it).
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Aug 29th 2022 at 12:01:41 PM