During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
the Timer
Are you doing comic Merlyn? Heard he was pretty cool.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Moron
Eventually - everything I've heard makes him sound like an easy keep - but I'm not quite wedded to trucking through his 60+ appearances quite yet.
Also, any thoughts on the video I proposed earlier?
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 10th 2022 at 10:40:38 AM
Yes to Timer.
to Timer
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Billy
So after thinking her over, here’s my final candidate from Hanna, Marissa Wiegler
Who Is She? What Has She Done?
Marissa Wiegler use to been a member of the UTRAX program where she would be ordered by her superiors to terminate the babies under her care after Erik Heller breaks one of them out if their facility, before going to pursue Heller, Johanna and an infant Hanna and crashing their car making their deaths look like an accident.
Though Marissa was able to kill Johanna, Heller and Hanna both survive where Heller trains Hanna into becoming an assassin hellbent on killing Marissa. Though Hanna lets herself be captured by Marissa, Marissa was prepared for a moment like this and brought in enough guards to fend herself from Hanna causing Hanna to flee, while Marissa tries to pursue her and Heller.
During her hunt for the two, Marissa is captured by Heller where she learns that her boss, Jerome Sawyer sold her out to him. Marissa would then escape from Heller when Sawyer kidnaps him, where Marissa herself would later capture Sawyer, forcing him to tell her the truth about UTRAX and the people who run it.
Sawyer would then escape from Marissa clutches where she tracks him down to the UTRAX facility and kills them there while allowing Hanna and Clara to escape from the facility. Deciding to go against UTRAX and the organization Pioneer, Marissa would track down Hanna at The Meadows and tries convincing Hanna to escape with her so that they could take down Pioneer together.
However Clara shooting Marissa causes Hanna to turn on Marissa so that she can stay and protect Clara, where Miller would free Marissa and the two would join a group of activists seeking to expose Pioneers evil actions, where Marissa successfully convinces Hanna to join their cause while using evidence to blackmail John Carmichael into getting Hanna reinstated as a agent within UTRAX planning to dismantle it from the inside.
Through Marissa’s direction, Hanna is able to save all the lives that she was assigned to kill by faking their deaths until Hanna’s cover is blown where the two would break in to the place the assassination list is being created, destroy the computer that created the list, and demand Max Kaplan to hand them the backup algorithm.
However the copy turns out to be fake where Carmichael offers to give Marissa the real one. Though Marissa is aware that she’s walking into a trap where Marissa uses her position as Evans’ daughter, thus worth more to them than Carmichael, to get Evans’ soldiers to back off allowing her to flee while orchestrating Carmichaels deaths.
Meeting Hanna once more, Marissa would learn that Max is still alive, the two plan on entering Evans headquarters to retrieve the real list fooling everyone else into believing that Hanna has to convinced Marissa to surrender herself and upon arriving there she and Hanna turn on the bad guys before heading to where Max is being held at threatening to kill him unless they give them the real copy.
Hanna and Marissa would then leave Max to die after he gives them the copy before going to where Abbas’ location to stop Evans soldiers from killing Abbas and his 6-year old daughter. Hanna would try to fend off Evans’ men, while Marissa would confront her father and kill him. However, Evans has shot Marissa before dying, but she has enough strength to order Evans’ soldiers to stand down, thus sparing Hanna and her company before succumbing to her wounds
Is She Intelligent? Is She Charismatic?
As a CIA operative Marissa proves herself to be very intelligent having anticipated her enemies moves and orchestrating many plans to counterattack them, while being able to organize her own plans, assassinations, and rescues, while playing both sides to her own ends and hardly loosing her cool.
She does show hesitation when trying to kill Evans, though that part is because Evans was her father who was forcing her to remember all the times he abused Marissa (its implied he raped her too) and when facing him the second time she shows no hesitation in killing Evans and sacrificing herself to save Hanna
What’s The Competition Like?
Along with Hanna, Heller, and Miller, Miller is one of the most cunning, charismatic, and badass characters in the whole show being able to play everyone for her own ends. Also for those wonder no Carmichael doesn’t count he’s a Smug Snake whose willing to betray any side to save his own skin, so yeah Marissa wins it here.
Is She a Bitch? Is She Too Much Of a Bitch?
Well Marissa was part of the UTRAX program who has killed innocent people that got in her way including Johanna, an innocent woman, had murdered infants under her care, served as The Heavy for season 1 trying to kill the hero if she refused to willing join UTRAX and was willing to kill anyone who got in her way in the present, so yeah she is a bitch.
That said Marissa does have some humanizing qualities such as having to endure suffering at the hands of her father throughout her childhood, having a relationship with someone during season 1 and keeping him safe, and does show great remorse in being forced to kill the infants under her care where she at least to euthanize them as painlessly and humanly as possible, and the reason for her Heel–Face Turn is to atone for committing that act that still greatly haunts her and does grow to genuinely care for Hanna, willing to sacrifice her life to protect Hanna.
Final Verdict?
I will leave the decision up to you guys to decide.
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 10th 2022 at 11:21:56 AM
Billy,
Timer
This new candidate brings my candidates from Psych full circle
The Work: Psych
The Candidate
Comes from the episode Extradition 2: The Actual Extradition Part, and is not Pierre Despereaux. It's actually the woman he was romancing in that episode - Valeria Crosley.
Shawn and Gus receive an invitation from Pierre Despereaux to visit him in prison in British Columbia. When they arrive, he tells them that after the events of his first appearance, he was inspired to perform the perfect crime. He does this by sneaking into their car, stealing it, committing the theft, and returning to prison.
Shawn and Gus head to the RCMP headquarters to inform the police about Desperaux's escape, where they learn that things at the department are hectic because their best detective is dead. While they learn that the prison has every prisoner accounted for, they also get a call about an art theft at the Crown Prosecutor's house. Shawn and Gus naturally realize Desperaux did it, but just one issue - he's been murdered too. The duo confront Desperaux, who admits to the art theft but not the murder, assuring Shawn that he was probably set up.
Despereaux escapes again and heads to the Crown Prosecutor's home to observe the frame-up, bumping into the Psych duo again in the process. He also shows up at their hotel room with a woman who he met in prison and had fallen for. Desperaux tells them about a middleman that put his client in contact with Desperaux. They get a location on him and learn that the client was a crime lord named Frank Crosley.
Desperaux reacts [[appropriately Oh, Crap!]] because not only does Crosley run his whole operation from prison, but the woman he had fallen in love with is actually Crosley's wife. What's more, it is very likely that the dead detective was murdered by Crosley, as he was close to bringing down his operation. He died before he could put it all together, but he was able to provide the information to the Crown Prosecutor before his death. Shawn concludes that Crosley set up Desperaux because of the affair, but when they arrive to see Crosley, he's also dead while Despereaux is seen leaving the house.
As Shawn and Gus discuss the case in the car, they decide to check the trunk to see if Despereaux is hiding there. However, they see Desperaux being held at gunpoint by Crosley's wife Valeria, who was the actual crime boss. Shawn knocks her down and the three of them flee, but Valeria gets back up and follows them to a cabin.
Pierre steps out and she trains her gun on him. She is briefly distracted by Gus running out of the cabin, but responds by shooting Pierre in the leg. After that, Shawn knocks her out and it is the last we see of her.
Magnificence
I could simply say "She played Pierre", but that would be insufficient. She makes it look like her husband is the true boss so that her organization comes off as more powerful. The info that the detective found and gave to the Crown Prosecutor was basically "Frank isn't the crime boss, his wife is". She kills the detective and the prosecutor without being suspected of anything, also setting the investigation back in the process.
There is also the fact that she successfully frames Pierre for the murders of the Prosecutor and Frank, setting up the crime scene in a way that leaves him impressed. Shawn only realizes that Valerie is the true crime boss after she steps out of the foliage with a gun pointed at Pierre's head. It is implied that Pierre had no clue beforehand either.
As for her defeat, I don't think it is too bad. While Pierre anticipated that she would shoot him without intending to kill him, I don't see it as him playing her (she still shot him btw). She get knocked out by Shawn afterwards... and that's it - no humiliation involved.
Bastardry
She is a crime boss with 3 murders as far as we know, one of whom was her husband (who she killed to tie up loose ends. She also feigned a relationship with Pierre so that she could frame him for murder, later shooting him (albeit not fatally).
The Competition
Pierre Despereaux has appeared in four episodes of the show, and of the people he went up against, Valeria has the best shot at this trope. Ronnie Ives definitely doesn't count because not only does he fail to catch the impostors in his crew, but he also gets thrashed by Pierre, who is much smaller than him. Jacqueline from "Indiana Shawn" doesn't do much AFAIK besides tricking the Psych duo into abandoning their post, and I may need to revisit the episode to see if she counts.
Edit: oops... didn't see that G posted an EP as I was preparing mine
Edited by magnumtropus on Feb 10th 2022 at 8:21:02 PM
Yes to T Imer. And...I got one from the show Game of Thrones I'm not sure'll make it, but...let's give it a whirl.
Who is Sandor Clegane?
The Hound is one of the most feared men in Westeros. A muscled brute of a man, Sandor was the second son of the landed knight family, House Clegane. As a boy, Sandor was an idealistic child who loved knights and when he borrowed a toy of his elder brother Gregor, Gregor shoved his face into a burning brazier, permanently scarring him and almost killing him...Gregor was knighted soon after, later known as the Mountain that Rides. Their father covered up the incident. Disgusted with the hypocisy of knighthood, Sandor left his family and was never knighted.
Sandor killed his first man at 12, fighting as a young soldier in Robert's Rebellion...in fact, Sandor found he was good at killing and pursued occupations to do it legally, such as boyguard and mercenary, being the personal sword to Crown Prince Joffrey Baratheon. His nastier nature is shown when a butcher boy named Mycah is accused of attacking Joffrey. Sandor rides him down and kills him without remorse. Revealing his prodigious skill in a tournament, Gregor furiously attacks Ser Loras Tyrell who unhorsed him and Sandor easily holds his brother off until Robert calls for them to cease. Sandor is named champion of the tournament by Loras out of gratitude...Sandor mostly stands around from there until the season finale when he is made a member of Joffrey's Kingsguard.
From there, Sandor becomes a protector to Sansa Stark as best as he is able, comforting her in a way after Joffrey has her beaten and when Joffrey's idiocy has a mob attack and Sansa is separated, Sandor saves her himself and later helps roganize the defense when Joffrey's rival claimant to Westeros's throne, his "uncle" Stannis attack...the use of Wildfire triggers his phobia and Sandor decides "Fuck the city. Fuck the kingsguard. Fuck the King." He offers to take Sansa with him, but upon her refusal, he slips into the night.
Sandor is later captured by the outlaw heroes, the Brotherhood without Banners and denounces their attempt to judge him. When Arya Stark, friend of the boy Mycah, accuses him directly, Sandor fights the Brotherhood's leader in Trial by Combat and manages to skillfully best him....Sandor plans ahead and captures Arya to ransom her...thetwo institute an odd sort of slowly developing bond that cotnrasts with Arya's hate of him, Sandor saving her from running to the Red Wedding and later killing Frey soldiers who mock the death of her brother when Arya forces a fight with them....this culminates in a fight with his brother Gregor's men, Sandor goading them into a fight and butchering them from disgust at them.
After robbing a farmer and his daughter, Sandor tries to get Arya to her aunt to ransom her there...things culminate when he meets the warrior Brienne having being injured elsewhere and Brienne overcomes him. Arya leaves him for dead despite Sandor all but begging her to kill him.
found by the priest and former soldier Septon Ray, Sandor is given a new life and tries to leave violence behind...this lasts only until outlaws murder Ray and Sandor goes for revenge, finding the Brotherhood Without Banners judging the men and allow Sandor to hang several. He goes up north with them and eventually participates in an operation to go waaaay further north to nab an undead whight and show the Court at King's Landing...the operation manages to succeed and Sandor brings the Wight in, while meeting his now undead brother and giving him a warning: he's coming for him.
Sandor later fights in the battle of Winterfell against the undead where Arya kills the Night King and eventually heads south to finish things with Gregor...as King's Landing burns, Sandor manages to convince Artya to put her own vengeance aside, go and live...Arya thanks him one last time and Sandor confronts Cersei and Gregor...Gregor shows some final vestiges of himself and fights Sandor, who is outmatched by the undead brute Gregor has become, but rather than yield, Sandor finds the one way to rid the world of Gregor: charging him, Sandor tackles Gregor and flings them both off the Red Keep, plummeting down into the raging fires together.
Mitigating issues?
Sandor is an extremely good fighter and planner. He's more of the tactical sort of bastard, but in a straight fight, Sandor combines swift thinking with his skill and brute strength. He's legit one of the best fighters alive and extremely intelligent in battle.
Now, Sandor in the show is a touch better put together than the drunken wreck he is in the book. Book Sandor has some...darker moments the show one lacks. Notably, Sandor in the show does admit he enjoys killing, but he's less emotional and sadistic about it. His killing Mycah is done without much feeling or care, just pure doing a job, as opposed to the book version openly laughing about it to Arya's dad, Ned. But Sandor's charisma shines through in his portrayal by Rory Mc Cann who makes Sandor tormented, gives him tons of depth and presents him in a multifaceted light. It's pretty telling that as bad as the show got, Sandor is an aspect routinely praised.
Now, his ending...Sandor is unable to let go of his hate of Gregor and instead opts to die to take him out, knowing he's not coming back when he goes into battle. However, he does use this to convince Arya to be better and sets her out to choose a new path for herself. Sandor is given to some moments where he's not really at his best- he does flee the Blackwater battle, but this is really his fear of fire manifesting, rather than cowardice. Sandor is shown to brave fire at other times and he's honestly extremely brave at others. He doesn't fear death at all and the closest he comes to a breakdown is when he's in agony and all but begging Arya to kill him. They do later reconcile, albeit.
No doubt Sandor is a bad guy. He's a killer, he enjoys it, he makes no bones about it. He's also honest, which he believes puts him a step over hypocritical knights who don't bother to honor vows Sandor at least never makes. The guy has a ton of redeeming qualities...notably, the farmer he robbed dies and Sandor finds his corpse with his daughter...Sandor is stricken by guilt over it and buries them himself, mourning them and trying to say prayers over the grave, but can't remember the words, mournfully concluding "You deserved better. Both of you."
He genuinely cares for Arya and Sansa as well, an the former finally forgives him at the end. He holds little issue to Brienne and he's mostly just happy Arya's doing alright when he and Brienne talk again.
Conclusion?
Leaning yea to the Hound here.
Yes to the Timer and - oh, I'm a hell yes to Sandor, I'll back him all the way.
Oh hell yes to The Hound! Rory McCann everyone!
@Emerald Well with Ward, the show eventually vindicated and redeemed him of both the Never My Fault and FEINE angle by literally showing another life when different circumstances put him on a different side.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 10th 2022 at 8:39:14 AM
I'm gonna go yea to the Psych one and lean ye to Marissa, too
to the Hound (that last fight scene was epic)
Also don’t forget to vote in Valeria and my candidate as well
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 10th 2022 at 12:08:38 PM
Showtime!
to Marissa, Valeria and the Hound (even if acknowledging GoT makes me feel like I'm having a cluster headache)
I'll have one other from GOT soon and one Halo one
Marissa and Hound
Based on what I read, to Marissa.
@G You mean Valeria?
@Emerald Yeah, this guy probably didn't have the luxury though of Ward being partially acquitted because someone despicable gaslighted and made him a villain.
@Lighty Jaqen or someone else? That'll make what, four for MB compared to CM's…six?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 10th 2022 at 9:11:10 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Val, Hound and Marissa.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
yeah I meant Valeria
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 10th 2022 at 12:17:36 PM
mu
to valeria and the hound
Goku Black
marissa, Valeria and The Hound (Cleganebowl)
Yes to Marissa, Valeria, and Sandor.
for the Timer, Marissa, Valeria, and the Hound.
for Jigsaw.
for the Timer, Marissa, Valeria, and the Hound. No to Jigshaw.
Timer, Marissa, Valeria and the Hound.
Edit: Billy after reading the EP and given what others have said.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 10th 2022 at 1:14:58 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
to Show!Sandor Clegane (I would be a lot more resistant to the novel version, given what he wanted to do to Sansa the night of the Blackwater).
Edited by k410ren on Feb 10th 2022 at 12:59:31 PM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Yes to Marissa and Valeria.
So, I'm gonna have to disappear for the weekend - organization business - but I ought to get the third and probably final MB from She Who Became The Sun EP'd. I'm so sorry to overwhelm the thread, everyone, I've been waiting on this but I'd rather have it done before I go away rather than after.
The work?
We talked about She Who Became The Sun not too long ago. Anyways, it's the tale of Zhu Chongba and General Ouyang, two messy and disturbed individuals who nonetheless achieve their goals with incredible efficiency, style, and grace. It's a complex story with themes about LGBT+ characters in societies that despise them, twists and turns, political intrigue, and more murder than you can shake a spear at.
It's really good. Why are you still reading this? Go read the book. It's so good.
Anyways, uh, yeah, MB candidate #3: Wang Baoxiang.
Who is Wang Baoxiang?
Lord Wang Baoxiang is the adopted son of Chaghan-Temur, father of Esen-Temur and complete asshole of a Mongol. Baoxiang is... not highly respected by Chaghan, to say the least, despite being one of the driving forces in keeping his affairs going. Baoxiang isn't like most Mongols, being an outsider to their kind - he's a deep and thoughtful individual, great with accounting and calligraphy rather than horse-riding and war. More a diplomat than a tactician, Baoxiang spends a lot of time verbally vivisecting other characters, whether they be the abusive and cruel Chaghan or the delusional Esen. Considered a coward and an outsider, Baoxiang is constantly behind the scenes.
During an event to prove their prowess to the Great Khan, Wang noticeably sabotages a rival, Altan, by replacing his gift with a dead animal, humiliating him in front of the Khan, as well as absolutely destroying Esen and analyzing Ouyang in conversation, clearly knowing Ouyang is up to something. Ouyang decides Baoxiang, being ambitious, arrogant, and hating Chaghan, would be the perfect person to frame for his crimes. So... he just goes for it, nearly getting Baoxiang killed by luring him into facing wolves. Though he's seconds from fighting back, Ouyang's ensured he can't get to his bow, meaning Ouyang "saves" Baoxiang from the trap he himself created. Ouyang uses the dead wolf's pelt to ensure Chaghan's "accident" on his horse, and Baoxiang seems to be to blame. After mourning his abusive adoptive father, Baoxiang resumes typical operations for the most part, never afraid to talk to others yet seeming very cerebral. It's clear he knows about something, but the book leads the reader to believe Baoxiang's the one plotting against the Temur line...
...and then, during a seemingly polite conversation with Esen, the sounds of struggle emerge. Esen is shocked and appalled, and Baoxiang, in one of the most cathartic and awesome moments in the book, simply says:
- Oh, you think —? No, brother. This isn't my plot against you.
Is Baoxiang magnificent?
So, it's easy to miss on a first read since he's built as a villain and seems like a smug prick, but... yes, absolutely. Baoxiang is a brilliant official and diplomat, great at sabotaging his rivals and creatively achieving his ends. He outright tells Ouyang he's facilitated the entire plan, saw through Ouyang from the first moment. He's arrogant, yes, but he's also never afraid to stand up to Chaghan or Esen, whose mistreatment of him render him fairly sympathetic in retrospect, and despite others considering him a coward he's got absolute Nerves of Steel, very willing to fight a wolf when armed and responding casually to the knife at his neck. He covers Ouyang's ass and more, before talking Ouyang out of putting him down. Baoxiang claims power and revenge, walking away just as victorious as Ouyang.
Oh, and since this book doesn't shy away... Baoxiang initially seems to be very much a homophobe, talking down to Esen about his predilection for sex with men. However, we're later shown that Baoxiang holds Ouyang in respect, even claiming they're the "only ones that understand each other," and he never shows shades of this when he isn't actively trying to mess with Esen. Hell, even when he mocks Esen about it, it's in the middle of a blistering speech about how Esen doesn't have a son— he doesn't even seem opposed to homosexuality itself so much as screwing with his asshole brother.
Is Baoxiang a bastard?
He's an evil, vicious Mongol noble who sells out others for power, aiding their conquests through his official nature yet also sabotaging others when it benefits him. That said, he's also sympathetic due to his nature as a non-violent outsider who's often mistreated by everyone from normal Mongols to his own adoptive father. A very good balance.
Conclusion?
Honestly on a re-read... he's not as awesome as Zhu or Ouyang but he carves himself a solid niche.
And since I'll be gone, I'll do the pre-emptive writeup thing for once:
- Lord Wang Baoxiang is the adoptive son of Chaghan-Temur, and General Ouyang's greatest rival and ally. A brilliant noble and official, he uses his role as an educated and passive nobleman to hide from scrutiny. Brilliant at analyzing and manipulating others, Lord Wang discovers and covertly aids General Ouyang's plot against his adoptive father and brother, showing great calm no matter the danger he's in. When Ouyang ultimately enacts his masterstroke, Lord Wang escapes Ouyang's wrath by pointing out that he's not part of the Temur bloodline and walks away having gotten everything he ever wanted.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Feb 10th 2022 at 10:24:32 AM
Likewise no to Jigsaw, but it was a good effort.
And how's about we keep chugging along through more More Fun Comics Green Arrow stuff, yeah? I've got Lighty and Scraggle checking out two others at some point, but this one comes from issue #96 - "The Weather Prophet".
Who is the Timer? What does he do?
The Timer is a Clock King style criminal who uses his advanced meteorological skills in order to predict the best times to commit crimes and escape scot-free. He demonstrates these skills by robbing a loan company, and as the car speeds away it goes straight into an unpredicted sleet storm - unlike the cop cars chasing him, he's got skid chains on his car, so he drives away while the cops lose him easily. Later on, they rob a jewelry store, and while this gets GA and Speedy on the gang's tail and they get cornered, Timer remains calm before giving a signal to his crew to jump off the bridge they're on. Because of an unpredicted storm, the canal under the bridge had flooded enough for a boat that the Timer had planted before the heist to float, and they once again escape scot-free.
However, when he jumps, he leaves behind a note indicating his next heist is going to be attacking a plane carrying money from the treasury, so GA and Speedy go to the airfield where the plane is taking off to investigate it. Everything seems fine and the plane takes off as predicted, but an hour in, the plane runs into an unexpected storm and diverts to another airfield - just like the Timer wanted, as now the plane's landed somewhere with no real security, allowing him to take the plane. GA and Speedy wisened up to the plan enough to catch up to the plane in their own, but when the Timer sees them coming in to land, he cuts the lights on the airfield, leading to the plane crashing and the heroes being knocked unconscious.
Timer then takes the heroes with him while they're out for the final step of the plan - they've now got the money and the plane, so they're going to bail from the plane with the cash in a specific destination while the plane crashes. They do so, leaving the heroes behind - but, GA and Speedy being the badasses they are, the manage to escape and make it to the ground before the Timer's crew does, arresting them all on the ground.
Is he Magnificent?
The Timer is patient, plans ahead, keeps calm in all circumstances (even in his loss), tricks the heroes and the police through his unique knowledge of the weather (such as escaping in sleet due to having skid chains and preparing a boat in a place that will flood), and comes closer to getting his main goal than most of GA's enemies. There's really not much else to say - he's is cool, unique, and efficient in his job.
Is he a Bastard?
He's a thief who tries to kill GA and Speedy and takes a couple of hostages... that's literally it.
Final verdict?
Another yep from me - what about you?