During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Probably too violent and discriminatory toward humans. Probably the same reasons why Sentinel doesn't count either. With Quintessa though, she's far more focused on wanting to take out Unicron whatever the cost and that helps her not fall into the same traps.
Dylan Gould definitely doesn't. Petty and smug Dirty Coward.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 14th 2022 at 10:30:32 AM
I'm guessing Megatron just doesn't do enough? He's inactive for the majority of the first two films with the rest of the Deceptions doing all the work. While the third one he isn't the mastermind and is a Memetic Loser.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Optimus
Edited by Snowy66 on Jan 15th 2022 at 1:08:16 AM
Caesar
Megatron's a massive dick and just gets...so fucking humiliated in Dark of the Moon that I would need a really good argument to see if he "bounced back" in the later films. Like, Dark of the Moon turns him into Sentinel's smacked around bitch—as fuckin' Carly calls him out on—and Megatron legit takes a "The Reason You Suck" Speech from said tiny human before he gets off his ass and pulls The Dog Bites Back...then immediately gets butchered by Optimus anyway. I'm really not sure if his stint as "Galvatron" even does enough to pull him back from that.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
In addition to being a violent psychopath who loves genocide and casual brutality, Megatron isn't a very good plotter. He spends his second film at the heel of the Fallen, then 3 he's put under Sentinel Prime's who abuses him.
Like maybe this changes in 4 and 5. Buuut...
Professor Gigachad
I have heard about the poor quality of those films so yeah can't say I would blame you.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Inspired by STARCRUSHER's EP on Macavity, I decided to look at the character from the source material
The Work
Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats is a book of poems about cats, best known for being the inspiration behind the long running Broadway show Cats. Unlike the play, each poem is self contained.
The Candidate
Macavity obviously (I intend to look at more candidates). You see, Macavity's a mystery cat, he's called the... oh, you know what, I'll let TS Eliott describe him. The full poem can be found here
Macavity's a Mystery Cat: he's called the Hidden Paw—
For he's the master criminal who can defy the Law.
He's the bafflement of Scotland Yard, the Flying Squad's despair:
For when they reach the scene of crime—Macavity's not there!
Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity,
He's broken every human law, he breaks the law of gravity.
His powers of levitation would make a fakir stare,
And when you reach the scene of crime—Macavity's not there!
You may seek him in the basement, you may look up in the air—
But I tell you once and once again, Macavity's not there!
Macavity's a ginger cat, he's very tall and thin;
You would know him if you saw him, for his eyes are sunken in.
His brow is deeply lined with thought, his head is highly domed;
His coat is dusty from neglect, his whiskers are uncombed.
He sways his head from side to side, with movements like a snake;
And when you think he's half asleep, he's always wide awake.
Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity,
For he's a fiend in feline shape, a monster of depravity.
You may meet him in a by-street, you may see him in the square—
But when a crime's discovered, then Macavity's not there!
He's outwardly respectable. (They say he cheats at cards.)
And his footprints are not found in any file of Scotland Yard's.
And when the larder's looted, or the jewel-case is rifled,
Or when the milk is missing, or another Peke's been stifled,
Or the greenhouse glass is broken, and the trellis past repair—
Ay, there's the wonder of the thing! Macavity's not there!
And when the Foreign Office find a Treaty's gone astray,
Or the Admiralty lose some plans and drawings by the way,
There may be a scrap of paper in the hall or on the stair—
But it's useless to investigate—Macavity's not there!
And when the loss has been disclosed, the Secret Service say:
'It must have been Macavity!'—but he's a mile away.
You'll be sure to find him resting, or a-licking of his thumbs,
Or engaged in doing complicated long division sums.
Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity,
There never was a Cat of such deceitfulness and suavity.
He always has an alibi, and one or two to spare:
At whatever time the deed took place—MACAVITY WASN'T THERE!
And they say that all the Cats whose wicked deeds are widely known
(I might mention Mungojerrie, I might mention Griddlebone)
Are nothing more than agents for the Cat who all the time
Just controls their operations: the Napoleon of Crime!
Magnificence
As you can see, the poem describes him as a Mystery Cat, a master criminal and the Napoleon of Crime. He is able to commit various crimes, but by the time it is discovered, not only was MACAVITY NEVER THERE!, but he also seems to have an alibi.
Bastardry
While he commits a mass variety of crimes, I don't think any of them cross any lines that would make him lose his magnificence.
Verdict
. Also, there is more to come, so be ready
Edited by magnumtropus on Jan 14th 2022 at 10:47:17 PM
Louie, Masai, Swan, Chumley, Macavity, Optimus and Macavity
Yes to the OG Macavity.
Based on the EP, to that Macavity too.
Anyone else besides me see the movie? This isn't me volunteering the EP for the record. This is me taking the temperature of the thread based on what I reiterated.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I'd love to, it looks dreadful. And they somehow make Idris Elba look bad,(https://youtu.be/oPauTG6X5L0( I gotta see that, busy with other stuff first though.
to Mactavity.
Edited by Snoketrope on Jan 14th 2022 at 11:13:41 AM
The First man
Yes to Macavity #2 and Optimus from the director who made an amazing Got Milk commercial before going off the rails.
I hate spoilers
for both versions of Macavity. On a side note, I noticed some people found it odd that he'd be worthy. Why is that the case if he checks the boxes?
Because it’s Cats, I guess.
I have a potential keeper from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D..
What is Agents of Shield?
The show is a popular ABC show starring seemingly deceased Phil Coulson as well as his Shield team. The first season's plot has the ongoing mystery of Coulson's resurrection as well as Syke's hidden past, which segues into the Inhumans plot from seasons 2 to 5.
Who Is Jiaying?
Jiaying the Big Bad from Season Two, the mother of series protagonist Skye/Daisy Johnson.
Long before the series began, Jiaying was forced by Werner Reinhardt to touch the Obelisk or Diviner. This resulted in her becoming an Inhuman. Becoming immortal Jiaying founded Afterlife a sanctuary for Inhumans. Her right hand man, blind teleporter Gordon shuttles Inhumans to and from Afterlife with no one knowing it's exact location.
The now aged Reinhardt finds Jiaying and notes her lack of aging. He has her surgically tortured, tearing out her organs while she is still alive and conscious. Cal Johnson discovers her mutilated body and swears revenge. He tries to get his family back together by assigning Raini to bring Skye to her. This fails but Cal is able to find Reinhardt, now Daniel Whitehall, teaming up with plans for betrayal.
Whitehall and Grant Ward are able to abduct Skye and bring her to Cal. Cal finally has his reunion but Syke is not to thrilled with how her father is acting. Skye touches the Diviner and does not die as she was a latent inhuman.
After Ward and Cal turn on Whitehall, he tries to kill Cal only to be killed by Coulson. This enrages Cal as he wanted to kill Whitehall and make him suffer. Instead she gains superpowers With Syke's newfound powers every becomes afraid of her due to her lack of control. Eventually Syke is put in the cabin designed to contain Hulk.
In the cabin Syke meets Inhuman Gordon who persuades her to go to Afterlife. After evading "Real Shield"note Gordon teleports her to Afterlife.
In Afterlife Skye meets Lincoln Cambell who introduces her, it's not till she confronts Raini does she finally meet Jiaying. She introduces herself and explains that upon entering Afterlife all offences are forgiven.
Jaiying takes it upon herself to help Skye control her powers. She shows Skye how her powers can be beautiful by letting her play music with the mountains. Jiaying has her meet with her father Cal and they all have dinner together.
Jiaying sends both Cal and Skye, now known as Daisy Johnson, to Milwaukee, having Lincoln shadow them. She secretly tells Gordon not to come back with Cal. After Campbell is kidnapped by Hyrda, Cal comes back to her furious for trying to abandon her.
Raini sees visions of a strange object that Jiaying realizes is the Monolith. Since the Monolith is in Shield's custody she plans an attack of Shield. She arranges a meeting with Shield, and Robert Gonzales agrees to discuss peace, even offering to hand over Cal.
Gonzales brings up Jiaying torture and compares it to his bad leg, both by Hyrda. He offers to put the Ihumans on the Index, for everyone's safety. As a peace offering, he gives Jiaying her long lost necklace.
Jiaying responds by giving him a "gift", a terrigen crystal that petrifies Gonzales. She rips his gun out of his hand and shots herself with it. Gordon takes over the Quinjet and strafes Afterlife to start a war.
Cal Johnson turns out to be a Trojan Horse as he was dosed with Super Serum. After erratic behavior and going into shock, the adrenaline used to revive him completes the formula. Cal goes into One-Winged Angel form and rampages around the Shield base. Only after Coulson pins him with an SUV is he able to talk to him.
Jiaying and the Inhumans take over the Iliad, using the terrigen crystal to kill Oliver. She demands Shield to activate the S.O.S beacon or she will release the crystals in the ship's vents. Luring Shield into a trap is her way of demonstrating that the Inhumans are not to be messed with.
Coulson urges Cal not to be a pawn in Jiaying's schemes. When Cal calls himself a monster, Coulson points out Jiaying is a worse monster. It's then that Cal mourns the good woman Jiaying once was.
Jiaying tries to win over Daisy once again, but she doesn't fall for it and they try to kill each other. Cal steps in, killing Jiaying by breaking her spine, so Daisy won't have to.
Is she a bastard, to much of a bastard?
The entire point of Jiaying's character is that she pretends to be the kind benevolent ruler she once was. While she does try to win over her daughter, once she fails to due so she tries to kill her. Later in the show a past version of her discovers her future actions and is horrified.
That being said, she does not show Whitehall's sadism or Garrett's sheer selfishness. Her plans are about saving the Inhumans, has plans about about saving himself.
Can she think on her feet?
She tries to get Cal to bring Daisy to her by exploiting his desire to have the family complete again. Once that fails due to Daisy finding Cal creepy, she instead uses Daisy's feelings of isolation brought by her teammates anxiety about her abilities.
Despite her failed attempt to abandon Cal resulting in his anger, she is able to calm him down and continue to use him.
She does not trust Raini, but sees her prophecies as useful. Once Raini discovers the Monolith, Jaiying plans are nearly executes a takeover of the Iliad.
Her biggest mistake is the murder of Raini. The fact that she kills her basically confirms that Raini's accusation were true, but Jiaying had no idea she was watched by Daisy of all people.
The competition?
Season two's initial Big Bad Whitehall is explicitly shown to not truly understand the powers he is working with. His shotgun approach gets many people killed, with the few positive results like Jiaying and Daisy causing him more problems.
The other Hydra heads are quite petty as Octavian Bloom is easily manipulated into killing them only to be promptly killed himself. Sunil Bakshi is an easily manipulated pawn throughout the whole season, falling for moles like Simmons and Bobbi, being key to the plan to elimante the heads of hyrda, and brainwashed by Ward and Kara.
Raini is a smug snake. Her most notable action is attempting to blackmail Coulson by threatening to reveal Simmon's as a mole in Hydra, which fails because Coulson had another mole to rescue her. Raini attempts to manipulate the people of Afterlife fail, and she only "wins" over Jaiying due to being willing to die in the process.
Grant Ward is a Magnificent Bastard himself, but the two operate on different scales. Throughout season two he operates as a wild card, briefly working with or for Whitehall before things break down. During the finale his personal revenge plan runs parallel to Jaiying's plot to take over the Iliad.
Edited by randomtroper89 on Jan 15th 2022 at 2:08:51 PM
Heck yea
Yes to Jiaying.
Goku Black
Alright.
Film Optimus Prime (tbh I did kinda wonder about that one), Jiaying, Macavity X2, and Chumley
Edited by miraculous on Jan 15th 2022 at 12:53:23 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ugh dammit, was typing up an EP and the tab refreshed itself so I lost all my work. Ah well, here we go again.
Doing an EP for Lex Luthor from The Batman, the Arc Villain of "The Batman/Superman story" two-parter.
What is the work?
The same animated adaptation that brought us Dreadlock Joker and the only CM/MB Hugo Strange in existence.
During Season 5, the Justice League is slowly introduced, including Superman. And wherever the Big Blue Boy Scout appears, there's one guy who is likely to follow..
Who is Lex Luthor and what has he done?
Superman's one and only Arch-Enemy, once again with Clancy Brown reprising the role.
This Lex's Evil Plan involves using a robotic army (from technology he had salvage from the alien race the Joining) to take out the world's military. He claims this is for the greater good, as with him in charge he would be able to protect the world from any future alien attacks. However to do so, he'd need to get Superman out of the picture first.
Lex hires Metallo to assassinate Superman, providing him with his only piece of Kryptonite. Metallo would have defeated Superman, had it not been for the intervention of Batman and Robin separating the cyborg from his Kryptonite.
Undeterred, Lex hires several Gotham criminals including Black Mask, Clayface, Bane, and Freeze to serve as a diversion. He instructs them to kidnap Lois Lane in order to lure Superman to Gotham, while also providing Black Mask with a blaster that would fire red-sun radiation. Black Mask and his thugs very nearly overwhelm Superman, but once again Batman and Robin are able to save him.
The heroes learn that Black Mask has been in league with Lex. Superman wastes no time in flying back to Lexcorp to confront Lex, where Lex is waiting for him. Lex reveals that during his visit to Gotham City, he also managed to kidnap Poison Ivy, who he is holding captive. He explains that Poison Ivy has the power to create mind control spores, which he has siphoned off. While Superman would usually be immune to such toxins, Lex has taken the liberty of lacing it with leftover Krytonite dust which he exposes Superman to, putting Superman under Lex's control.
Batman catches up and arrives, and is shocked to discover Superman is now Lex's slave. Unable to reason with this Brainwashed and Crazy Superman, Batman is forced to fight him using his Powered Armor. Lex is confident that a mere human would be unable to defeat Superman, but even if he did he merely required the two of them to be distracted for long enough to carry out his plan.
After a climactic battle, Batman manages to lure Superman to a treatment plant where he douses Superman with a herbicide that neutralizes Poison Ivy's spores and frees Superman from Lex's control. Superman then takes Batman and Robin back to stop Lex, who has already launched his robot army. Superman attempts to fight the robots, but turns out they are equipped with Kryptonite beams that weaken him. Noticing Superman destroy one of the robots, Lex commands them to all blast Superman simultaneously. Batman and Robin however have reached Lex's control room and then take out the control console, allowing Superman to dispatch the robots while Batman takes out Lex.
How is he Magnificent? Competition?
It's Lex Freaking Luthor, as always he has the charm and intelligence down pat. He's able to play Chessmaster and one ups Superman over and over, and even succeeds in turning Superman into his slave and sicks him onto Batman.
Lex being Lex does show his usual dislike towards Superman and aliens, but he never demonstrates any over the top verbal bigotry. Plus, this version is a Well-Intentioned Extremist who wants to protect the world from alien invasion (the world DID have an alien invasion from the Joining last season, which is where Lex got his tech from).
Too much of a Bastard?
Not really, his attempted killcount goes no further than Superman and Batman. His plan to take over the world has WIE vibes of protecting it, and there are no signs of him wishing to engage in mass murder.
Final verdict?
EDIT: Ravok pointed some stuff out, so maybe not..
Edited by Snowy66 on Jan 15th 2022 at 1:28:42 AM
The Character page does call Lex a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist:
Eh, I think that's more misuse. The entry just describes Batman calling out Lex for being a hypocrite for trying to protect the world from takeover by taking over it himself, but it doesn't negate Lex's altruistic intentions.
Plus that character page in general is a huge mess with sloppily written entries.
Edited by Snowy66 on Jan 15th 2022 at 1:18:27 AM
Goku Black
Sure I can
Lex.
But I do think this is legit the last example from the show. Everyone else isn't up to the competition and rumours probably kneecaps permanently the chances of anyone else counting except Hugo and Catwoman among the main rogues gallery.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Okay fair point. It's been a long time since I've seen these two episodes.
Edited by miraculous on Jan 15th 2022 at 1:24:35 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Caesar
I'm fine with Jiaying, but honestly don't feel Luthor quite hits this, having recently watched his eps to check him, he's a bit too much of a major dick for me. His Establishing Character Moment is him angrily smashing a phone and shouting that Superman and Batman thwarted his latest scheme, and in one of his biggest moments—taking control of Superman—Luthor starts out Faux Affably Evil explaining his plans...then when Superman tries to resist the control, Luthor begins screaming at him "Look at me when I'm talking to you!!" while slapping him in the face, then snarls "Bow to me! Bow to me, you alien swine!" Just to assert his ego.
Then there's the fact that when his plans are being foiled, Luthor hops into a Giant Mech suit apparently ready to fight for himself...and Batman hilariously just throws a single batarang that shorts out the entire system, Superman swoops in and bashes the robot around while Luthor slapstick-y gets chunked around inside, and he ends the episode being stood over by the heroes triumphantly while he cowers and snarls at them.
Even for a cartoon villain for which I'm very lenient on, the rather humiliating ending + his dickish attitude underneath the fake affableness kind of is a rough combination that makes me sadly say No, personally.
Edited by Ravok on Jan 15th 2022 at 1:23:17 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Ah okay, I didn't think the kneel before him thing was an issue. Yeah seems like I still miss little things like this.
Okay I see, the character entry does seem rushed. To Luthor.
EDIT: Never mind, got ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
'd
Edited by randomtroper89 on Jan 15th 2022 at 3:34:40 AM
Why exactly does Megatron not count? Not doubting just wondering, I know nothing about him.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes