During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Still disappointed my cringe is being moved to page format ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Professor Gigachad
I have heard much better things about Sabrina than Riverdale, I guess it is a matter of opinion though.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Morty
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Sep 19th 2021 at 3:27:39 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
I've heard more respect given to Sabrina too. Riverdale at the least from what I know totally falls under So Bad, It's Good.
Based on the EP, to Wells.
Was already an uncle, but I'm one by blood now though.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 19th 2021 at 3:37:09 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Wells.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Wells and Boom.
That's great future!
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Wells and Takiza
The Moron
Alright ya'll, I really hate to do this, but I think we need to take another look at Raul Menendez. I want to be clear that I'm not necessarily saying cut right off the bat, but I really feel like we need to discuss some things closer on another look - here's the EP. Basically, I have a problem with a few of his endings.
Now, I can ignore the ending where he lights himself on fire on his sister's grave because it's heartbreaking yet poignant and it's as graceful as it can be in that situation. I do, however, take umbrage with the good ending. In it, his plans completely fail, and when Chloe taunts him on TV, he smashes his head against the tv out of frustration before breaking down in psychotic laughter while bleeding from his head. It's... quite a horrific Villainous Breakdown (if you turn on the censoring, it just censors his entire head), and is far from his calm eloquence he had for the rest of the game while he was in control. Now, on its own, I can forgive that for the reason listed in the EP - the ending is non-canon to III, so we can theoretically take the "canon" ending and ignore the rest. The problem? The EP incorrectly identifies what is "canon".
Basically, none of the endings of II are actually canon to III - the ending identified in the EP comes closest, but it's not quite there. In essence, at the end of the second game, you get to either spare or kill Menendez, and he tells Section to martyr him. If you kill him, he becomes a martyr, Cordis Die rises up in vengeance, and the First World essentially collapses from the pressure. In the third game, background information reveals that Section canonically killed him, but instead of all that, his followers realized that Menendez was killed while fleeing the battle in the enemy uniform, and they came to view him as a coward instead of a martyr. As a result, Cordis Die essentially fractured overnight, the promised reprisals never came, the countries he hoped to change and damage are free to keep doing the same shit they did before (just without the drones they used before), and the man himself is remembered as nothing more than a hypocritical egomaniac - while he's credited for the creation of the DEAD system, in the end all that did was force countries to keep doing what they were doing quietly and covertly instead of publicly with the drones. In the long run, nothing really changed. In essence, his final plan completely failed. The EP even says that the reprisals shown in II's ending helped cause the dystopia seen in III, but while Raul's actions did make the countries abandon their drones, the actual reprisals never ended up coming.
Basically, the way I see it, it's a catch-22. If we take the second game by itself and consider all of the endings equally a la Heavy Rain (since none of the endings are canon anyway), then we need to include all his endings, including the one where he has a quite frankly terrifying breakdown. If we include the third game and treat it as "canon", then his plan completely falls at the last minute right after he martyred himself and he makes almost none of the impact that he wanted on the world. It absolutely sucks because Raul is easily the smartest bad guy in the series so far and he fits this trope like a glove... until the last possible moments. I really hope I'm overthinking things, but I just needed to get my thoughts out there.
What do you all think?
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Sep 19th 2021 at 11:58:38 AM
No I'd say he's a cut STAR.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Woagh
Unfortunately, this kinda looks too much like a lose/lose situation for him.
Cut Raul.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Goku Black
Isn't the stuff with the tv basically a joke golden ending.
He literally does that after she goes on Jimmy Kimmel Live!...
Not sure I want to cut over that.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Rest in Peace Call of Duty MB page.
As for my vote, I lean cut but I'm gonna think more on it.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
The Moron
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Well yeah, he does do it in response to a TV show interview, but it is played seriously. Especially when it's compared to the dance party credits scene when he's the Butt-Monkey for Avenged Sevenfold and it's all played for ridiculous laughs.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Sep 19th 2021 at 9:04:17 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Cut Raul.
We can just make the page a redirect to MagnificentBastard.Video Games if we cut Raul.
Cut Raul.
Okay so apparently Raul is getting re-evaluated as an MB. So as the guy who effort-posted him in the first, I still support my reason why I think he's an MB. Even with different scenarios of the endings, they still give Raul dignity, even the golden ending where Raul briefly looses his cool and smashes the tv with head, he regains his composure rather quickly before simply smirking back at the insult. As for the supposed Canon ending in III, while it may not have gone completely as Raul planned, it isn't exactly Raul's fault as he's only just a regular human being (it's not like he has the power to see the future) and even in the end he still accepts his death and keeps his dignity until the end. Also I don't think we should include the scene in the band since that is just a non-canon gag in the end. I said what I said for Raul but if he does get voted to be cut, I guess I could live it, but overall I still think Raul can keep, and I'm saying my points to defend his stay.
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 19th 2021 at 9:59:11 AM
Smashing your head in where you regain your "dignity" is not really I feel something you can say is unmitigating. That's very bad, G. Having watched the scene I don't really think you can say he regains the dignity. He licks the blood and laughs. That's more madness.
The Moron
Oh yeah, I certainly wasn't including the band scene against him, I was just comparing it to the ending scene from the game itself. That non-canon credit scene should absolutely not be used against him.
I might have one from this show that might actually be viable unlike the last one. We'll see…
I'm…cautiously optimistic.
What is the work?
Side Hustle is a beyond silly 2020 Nickelodeon show in which teen girls named Lex and Presley accidentally blow up their principal’s new boat with illegal fireworks and to pay him back get Presley’s science genius younger brother Fisher (who has a massive crush on Lex) to create an app for them called KidDING!. They use it to be hired for any job, anywhere, any time and trouble usually follows at every turn with the episode I'm talking tonight being the show’s seventeenth called "Make-A-Mutt" (Lex, Presley and principal's son Munchford "Munchie" get jobs at a Build-A-Bear type place and things get out of hand). I'm gonna bring it back around to the main plot, but mainly focus on the subplot involving Fisher right now though.
Who is she and what has she done?
"The Wombat" (said with a dramatic head turn) is a teen girl dressed in a magician-type outfit who totes herself as a problem solver and is hired by Fisher through Munchie when Fisher defies his and Presley's utterly and ridiculously goofy father Alan by driving the new lawnmower without permission and crashing it through the garage door. When she arrives, she tells Fisher in a rushed tone to get her a bunch of things that don't seems to have anything to do with fixing the garage, among which is including multiple glasses of lemonade, a blowup palm tree and an alpaca (which of course Darci Lynne Farmer does her ventriloquism with at one point). Fisher gets fed up and declares that it would've been easier just to tell his dad the truth from the start.
Cue a slow clap from the Wombat when she reveals that her plan all along was to get him to realize what he really needed to do the whole time and Fisher does just that when Alan returns home. The Wombat then takes the blowup palm tree and one or two other things as payment and takes her leave. She then comes back at the end of the episode and this is where things tie back into the main plot.
The main plot involved Lex and Presley losing control of the machine at Make-A-Mutt—which is toted as being magical to help sell the fun to the kids though each stuffed dog costs about $50—and the store being in trouble as a result of the illusion being broken. The Wombat however is hired and saves the store by convincing Marilyn, the woman who secretly ran the machine until she retired, to come back to do it. The Wombat then takes one of the dogs Lex and Presley accidentally made—the one with the head in the butt—and then leaves.
Is she magnificent?
She has a strong reputation for solving problems and that record stands tall by the end of the episode. The Wombat when hired to solve two specific problems uses her smarts and is efficient in getting things done. Everything certainly went according to plan in both cases (also unlike Ruby fooling Lex and Presley who can be both be very dumb at times, the Wombat's not fooling Alan who's also very dumb, but Fisher who's clearly very smart).
Bitch? Too much?
I think Jerkass Genie (even though she's not actually magical) and Trickster Mentor are both in effect here as the Wombat had to make it to do that she's bribed or given some kind of compensation to get things done. In Fisher's case, she makes him feel like he's being extorted, but it's clearly part of her plan to teach him a lesson and confess the truth to Alan. With Make-A-Mutt, she helps restore the faith in the illusion that the machine is magical and takes a stuffed dog as her compensation there too—helping the others, but still clearly getting something out of it too.
Verdict?
Uhh…? SHRUG.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 19th 2021 at 7:51:45 AM
Eh, doesn't look like the Wombat is really enough of a bastard. Maybe if the Trickster Mentor stuff actually did any harm to Fisher, Lex, and Presley, I'd be fine with upvoting her. But it looks like the closest thing to an actual crime she does is annoy the people she teaches lessons to.
That was my concern admittedly too, whether or not it would end up being enough.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 19th 2021 at 8:15:17 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
No to Wombat. Doesn't really seem bastard enough.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
No to Wombat. Going to think on Raul for a bit. I think it's fair to take the endings that could lend to III as canon but even though he goes out in a Face Death with Dignity moment the whole thing spinning around to have him remembered as a hypocrite and a coward. I feel like there's almost meant to be a deeper statement regarding how much control over things on a global level he had vs. how quickly the house of cards could come toppling down. He's obviously far more dignified than Littlefinger about it all but it does very much seem like a cosmic "Screw you" and I worry the only parts of me that can even still see him counting are more wanting him to stay rather than really being able to call him this.
No to Wombat for reasons stated.
@43: That's all yours, kinfolk.![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.