During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The Moron
Need to read Asim Yes there
@43: Sorry to bother you buddy, but I just realized you didn't add the Thesulac demon to the pending - I think it just got missed while you were deleting my previous pending, cause I know I posted my write-ups and that EP pretty close to each other. Sorry about that!
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
It's just like Buffy - most other works featuring a guy sacrificing babies would show him as detestable, but in that show, he's one of the Greats.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Aug 23rd 2021 at 7:52:07 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Naseri. As you say child killing isn't especially unique for this show.
Goku Black
Naseri
Ah the beauty of works with fucked up heinous standards. It helps pass guys you'd be iffief on in another setting.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Grandfather, Naseri, & a much more comfortable yes to Batman
Thomas Wayne, Doc Ock, Nomak, Gabriel, Grandfather (“Did you honestly believe a gazillion tons of red hot metal and duct tape could crush ME?!”), and Naseri.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Aug 23rd 2021 at 8:12:25 AM
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
- Fairy Realm of the Round Table, Avalon le Fae - The Moment a Planet is Born: Oberon-Vortigern is the Evil Uncle of Altria Caster. Summoned to the Avalon le Fae Lostbelt as Vortigern, he loses all memories and is mistaken by the fairies in the Autumn Forest as Oberon, and giving him the identify of Oberon as a result. When he remembers his other identify Vortigern, he would use his other identify Oberon to work together to their goals through deceiving Chaldea by making it look like Oberon took a hit from Morgan before working behind the scenes to deceive both Chaldea and the Fairies into reawakening Cernunnos, The Calamity of Curses, who acted as a seal. Upon the final defeat of Cernunnos, Vortigern's power as the Hollow Worm is unleashed, finally allowing him to perform his role as Fairie Britain's personification of self-destruction as punishment for the fae's sins and betrayal of Cernunnos for building it through devouring the entirety of the Lostbelt, and would have destroyed Proper Human History through Oberon's hatred of humanity judging the stories of the Lostbelts and pruning those that don't satisfy them to save their own existence, if it were not for Altria Caster summoning herself as Altria Avalon to assist Chaldea into defeating Oberon-Vortigern, remaining polite even when defeated.
Edited by Siegfried1337 on Aug 23rd 2021 at 5:36:53 AM
MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates
Goku Black
Kinda long. Could you trimm that.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
What parts should I trim?
MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Thomas, Grandfather, and Naser.
I have a question on something in regards to a candidate I am thinking about. Qetsiyah from the Vampire Diaries. For the most part she would be an easy keeper, but there is one thing that is keeping me from going a head and EPing. You see there this one crime she does that might be to far. Bassically she wanted revenge on Amara for steeling her lover. So she made he the anchor to the other side, which meant every supernatural creator that died had to pass through her. This drove Amara to the point of suicide. And then she happily did the same to Bonnie who had done nothing to her. Is this to far? I mean villains in this universe do some bad things but I am unsure if this is to far for an MB.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 23rd 2021 at 7:27:03 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Unknown Unknown
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You could probably remove that bit about the Pretender class and being one of the most successful villains in the Nasuverse.
Yes to Grandfather, and Naser. I'll update pending for you Star. Sieg try and condense on those sentences and follow erazor's recs... when there's a page worth of MBs from the franchise we really shouldn't be flourishing to make this one look "superior" to the others.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
So I changed the The Vampire Diaries Silas pothole in Silas' entry to The Vampire Diaries Universe Silas. Since the former is now just a redirect for the later. I hope that is okay.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 23rd 2021 at 7:35:30 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
That torture does sound bad Bull. Is there more context there?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
If it's the proper link that's fine.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Nope Amara stole Silas from her and that is how she created the other side. Plus she pretended to kill her to try to get Silas to kill himself and be stuck with her instead of his. That is literally all the context we are given. It's kind of a shame as otherwise she would be a easy keep as she technically wins and is a fun villain.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 23rd 2021 at 7:40:25 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The jealous lover driving people two people through intense torment and also trying to drive Silas to suicide likewise make me feel she's too vindictive and petty. She might be fun but she sounds like an asshole.
to to Grandfather and Naser.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Anyways thanks for answering my questions. I have others from the show I wanted to do as well so it's not a total loss.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 23rd 2021 at 8:05:35 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
That's a happy to Naseri.
Since its been almost a year since my last Fillmore! candidate, considering going back to it very soon. We'll see. Wondering about other more well-known Disney works that might have overlooked keepers too though.
Yes to Grandfather.
Yes to Naseri.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Grandfather (what a fun show) and Naser
RIP Toriyama
Damn, double post!
Edited by Ravok on Aug 23rd 2021 at 9:26:22 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Last candidate from 24: Legacy.
Who Is He?
Asim Naseri is one of Jadalla Bin-Khalid's “followers.”
He's also the most realistic and accurate depiction of a Giant Space Flea from Nowhere I've seen who becomes integral to the plot because reasons.
What Has He Done?
Prior to the season, Naseri worked as one of Ibrahim Bin-Khalid's top enforcers. At one point, he had an asset working with the American government and his whole family murdered; his children, in particular, were decapitated, something Eric is rightfully upset about. And at some point, the Americans kidnapped Naseri’s daughter, Ara, to compel him to turn against Ibrahim. When he refused, they murdered Ara, which only made Naseri hate America more.
During the eighth episode in the present, while Eric Carter and Andy Shalowitz are held prisoner by Jadalla, Eric randomly spots Naseri walking by and calls him out. Naseri denies who he is and then leaves. Shortly after the air strike on Jadalla's compound, Jadalla is taken into custody. Naseri, however, survived the strike and escapes from the ruins before CTU can find him. In the next episode, Naseri contacts one of his mercenaries, asking her to report on the status of a woman named Jennifer Marshall. Turns out that Jennifer Marshall is the girlfriend of the head of security of CTU, Steven Grant. Because this is 24, Naseri contacts Grant and informs him that Jennifer has a bomb strapped to her body, and if he doesn't comply with his demands, Jennifer will die. Since Jadalla was recently arrested and locked up in CTU HQ, Naseri needs Grant to break him out. He does. Naseri heads towards CTU to pick up Jadalla, but before Grant can bring him out, he finds out from Rebecca Ingram that Eric saved Jennifer. As Grant contemplates letting Jadalla go, Naseri sneaks into CTU and shoots Grant in the head before rescuing Jadalla himself. CTU tries to chase after them, but Naseri and his mercs cover their escape route and kill any CTU agents in the way. They also, conveniently, end up running into Senator John Donovan who was on his way to see Rebecca.
Because this is 24, he gets captured by Naseri.
With Jadalla free, Naseri is able to show Jadalla why he kept his identity secret: he was his father's lieutenant, and his father is in fact still alive. After Naseri delivers Jadalla to his father, the trio decide to use Donovan to lure out Rebecca, their true enemy, since their terrorist plans failed. Because this is 24. And we need to recycle the same plot point in the same season in the span of two episodes. Anyway, Rebecca and CTU try to find Naseri, but when they run out of leads, Rebecca agrees to meet Naseri in a football stadium to trade her life for her husband's (with Eric spying on the meet). When the meet goes down, Rebecca demands Donovan be released. Although Jadalla doesn't want to do it, Naseri and Ibrahim convince him to release Donovan, which they do. As Rebecca confronts Jadalla, Eric pops him in the head with a sniper rifle. Naseri and his men quickly storm the stadium and kidnap Rebecca before Eric can save her.
While driving away, Naseri suggests to just shoot Rebecca and be done with it all so they can flee the country before they're caught. But Ibrahim is intent on humiliating Rebecca by broadcasting a live execution of her. Still loyal to Ibrahim, Naseri goes along with his plans. Even after Rebecca tries to kill herself to botch the broadcast, Naseri and his men make sure to keep her alive until they reach an abandoned train station to set up the broadcast. Before Rebecca can be executed, he receives a phone call from Eric, telling him that Ara, whom Naseri thought was killed by Americans a year ago, was held in a black site. She is still alive and has been rescued. Eric decides on a trade: Naseri gets Ara if Rebecca goes free. (This is the fifth time this season they've pulled the I Have Your Wife card in some way, shape, or form). Naseri kills the men at the execution, handcuffs Ibrahim to a pipe, and stops the broadcast. When CTU calls back, they show Naseri proof Ara is alive by sending him a live video feed of her being escorted to an embassy. After she's safely away, Naseri keeps his words and delivers Rebecca to Eric during the meetup at the train yard.
Unfortunately, one of the men Naseri killed dropped their gun next to Ibrahim. Despite Ibrahim being horribly disfigured, paralyzed, handcuffed, and nearly eighty years old, he's able to pick up the gun without anyone seeing him and successfully shoot Naseri in the back a few times. Eric shoots and kills Ibrahim afterwards, but Naseri is dead, and Rebecca, who also caught a stray bullet to the back/midriff, dies later on in the hospital.
Because 24. :D
Is He Charming? Charismatic? Magnificent?
Not exactly charming, but definitely smart and resourceful. Jadalla gets arrested? Not a problem. Naseri has one of his mercs tie up a woman and strap a bomb to her. And then he forces said woman's boyfriend to break Jadalla out of custody—which he does. When Naseri sees John Donovan, he instantly recognizes him and tells his men to spare him because he knows he'll be useful. When Donovan tries to alert that he's being held prisoner in a van by kicking against the wall, Naseri and his team just get out the van and mow down all the cops at a roadblock. During Rebecca's trial, Naseri is ordered to cut Rebecca's throat, but instead of betraying his comrades immediately, he puts a knife to her throat, then slashes one thug in a sneak attack and guns down the others long before the surprised and disoriented men can counterattack. Naseri is very pragmatic; he kills anyone and everyone seen as a liability to him, and only spares people he knows will be useful to him later, like Senator Donovan and Rebecca.
Naseri occasionally seems a bit petty; he taunts Donovan about how it feels to be "married to a monster," but this is because Donovan doesn't know that Rebecca had Naseri's daughter murdered (but not really). He seems a bit spiteful towards Americans, but given that he believed the Americans took away his only child, his anger seems rational. Similar to Jadalla's anger after he found out his father had died. Of course, his father didn't die, and Naseri's daughter didn't die, but that's beside the point. >__>
You could argue that Naseri is hypocritical, hating the American government for killing his daughter when he himself beheaded three children. Then again, that's the Grey-and-Gray Morality of the show. Rebecca and Eric both see Naseri as a monster too, even though Rebecca and sleazy government official Donald Simms were responsible for kidnapping Ara, pretending she had been killed, and keeping her locked away in a black site for a whole year.
Nobody in this series is a saint, and those who appear to be end up getting killed off.
Is He a Bastard? Too Much of a Bastard?
Absolutely. Was a war criminal's trusted lackey; assisted Jadalla with his terrorist schemes; had a bomb strapped to a young woman; killed various law enforcement officers; kidnapped a senator; kidnapped said senator's wife and nearly had her executed. And so on and such. And while it could arguably count as Offstage Villainy, he murdered three children very brutally.
One could argue that killing the kids is too far into the Bastard territory, but remember: this is not the first MB willing to kill children. Going back to Saunders, for example, everyone infected with the Cordilla virus at the Chandler Plaza Hotel perished. Jack Bauer mentions whole families died, and Michelle Dessler (who was in the hotel) mentions that there were children who were going to die in front of their grieving parents. Christopher Henderson also allegedly murdered a preteen girl and her mother off-screen since they were witnesses who knew too much about the Sentox nerve gas conspiracy.
Final Verdict?
Again, unsure. Like always, questions or concerns are welcome.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.