During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
You went over most of my queries in the mitigating factors section, so this question might be a bit too nitpicky: I haven't watched Evangelion yet (I know, I know...), but my understanding of it is it's a brutal deconstruction of Mecha shows. Gendo is a deconstruction of the Disappeared Dad who builds a Mech. Would you say that while the show generally does document his flaws as human being quite a lot, it still doesn't make him a self-destructive mess like Rick or House? In addition would you say there's a grandioseness to his plans that those two specifically lack (They can get quite petty)?
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 14th 2021 at 5:17:34 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
In the old days of the thread we rejected several good candidates for minor things like being defeated or something having a ridiculous concept like Gravity Falls Stan.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Laurent, Allen, and motherfucking Gendo.
Lorenz is a scumfuck and not half as hands on a manipulator as Gendo, nor do I really think he or SEELE (beyond, again, Gendo) have the requisite presence for this trope beyond being the Omniscient Council of Vagueness.
That said, OG!Gendo is a long overdue yes.
@Klavice While the page description also says "villain", we've clearly put up a lot of anti-heroes though. We might want to change that because unlike a CM usually being a villain without question—like 99.9% of the time, MB is clearly far less limited to that.
By the way, I did say that Laurent is another for Michael Bay (third to be exact), but I'm surprised nobody else pointed out that he's also the first for Djimon Hounsou too.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 14th 2021 at 2:07:34 AM
Gendo is not a self destructive mess, he’s an awful father but he’s still got a grand goal, redeeming qualities, charm, brilliance and calm stoicism in the face of interruptions to his plan.
Scraggle is correct, Keel is a revolting asshole and would have been completely screwed by Gendo if the goddess-mother of humanity didn’t decide to abandon him to help Shinji. Exactly what it took to stop him bears re-mention.
Okay Gendo.
The Unknown Unknown
Gendo. I don't know Eva that well, but from what I know, it seems there's nothing to worry about in regards to his inclusion. Great work there, 43!
Barb / Temporary Kylo
All eyes On me By OR 30:Alice Angel, truthfully Susie Campbell, is reimagined as far more Charismatic and sympathetic then her game counterpart. Having been mistreated, cast aside and finally morphed into an Ink creature, she makes it her goal to become a 'Perfect Angel' Desiring to make all Sway to her, she successfully captured numerous Ink creatures in the past, and when she meets Henry manipulates Him into being her 'Errand Boy' Doing tasks for her, so she could have things done without having to worry about Bendy catching her.
The First man
Yes to Gendo Ikari, absolutely splendid work on this fellow.
To talk about someone who was recently approved, the reason Hanekoma wasn't approved before is because he's genuinely a nice guy and most of his bastard qualities are in supplementary material aside from him teaching Minamimoto the taboo noise sigil making him more of an anti hero than a villain and I first proposed him when we were solely doing villains. I think the MB page needs to be modified to say Anti Heroes can count as well as say it's not JUST the "best" schemer.
Here's a write-up for Kingpin:
Spider-Man: Spider's Shadow: Wilson Fisk, aka the Kingpin, is a crime lord who managed to run a successful criminal enterprise in spite of interference from the vigilante Spider-Man. Although fearful for his life as Spider-Man begins murdering criminals under the influence of a symbiote masquerading as his new black suit, Kingpin retains a level head and hires Shocker and Scorpion to investigate, indeed confirming that Spider-Man had become a killer. Deducing Spider-Man's identity as Peter Parker, Kingpin refuses to show fear or anger and calmly prepares to be killed at the web-slinger's hands, having prepared a contingency in the form of releasing Parker's identity to the public, ensuring that he would have a target on his back in or out of costume. Surviving Spider-Man's assault, albeit with his face badly maimed, Kingpin waits out the symbiote's attack on New York, dead set on getting his revenge on Spider-Man in spite of his ailing health and poised to do so upon acquiring a symbiote that survived the attack. As calculating and unflappable as his mainstream counterpart, as well as being one of the few characters to stand up to a symbiote-possessed Spider-Man and live to tell the tale, Fisk demonstrates how he lives up to his moniker of Kingpin of Crime.
Lies and Violence!
Gendo.
Batman: The Long Halloween is a two-part animated Batman movie focusing on the fall of Gotham's old crime families by the hand of a Serial Killer named Holiday, and the rise of the supervillain Two-Face.
The candidate
Gilda Dent is the wife of Harvey Dent, and the true identity of Holiday. Once in a relationship with Alberto Falcone, son of notorious crime lord Carmine "The Roman" Falcone, the two married after realizing she was pregnant. Falcone, being an asshole and not exactly a fan of the whole "child out of wedlock" thing, forced them to annul their marriage. Alberto was too weak to stand up to his father and Gilda was forced to abort her child, the unspecified method leaving her sterile and emotionally scarred.
Wanting to get back at them, Gilda married Harvey in the hopes he could bring down the Roman. She enjoyed their time together, but when he got distracted battling his own demons she was left with no one to enact vengeance but herself. Commissioning a special set of modified untraceable guns, "Holiday" first strikes by killing Falcone's nephew on Halloween, leaving behind one of the modified guns and a jack-o-lantern.
Holiday sporadically pops up during the holidays, always leaving the same calling cards: a gun and a holiday decoration. When we see Gilda in her civilian persona, she's always quiet and reserved; she acts with visible distress when Harvey brings up the possibility of having kids, and seems annoyed that he spends so much time at work.
- Falcone hires a Triad gang to (unsuccessfully) assassinate Harvey, and so Holiday strikes back on Thanksgiving by gunning the gang down.
- On Christmas, she kills Falcone's bodyguard after a scuffle with the Joker.
- On New Year's, Batman suspects Alberto of being the killer. He's almost immediately proven wrong when Holiday shoots him dead, proceeding to escape on a boat.
- Holiday strikes again on Valentine's Day, St. Patrick's Day, and April Fool's.
On Mother's Day she begins work on covering her tracks, killing the guy who made her modified guns. On Father's Day she murders the father of Sal Maroni, Falcone's rival in the mob. On the Fourth of July, she murders an assassin sent after Harvey. Harvey is knocked unconscious, so she sets things up so that when he wakes he thinks he's the one who killed the assassin guy.
At this point in time, Harvey himself is the primary suspect in the Holiday killings. Maroni, buying into these rumors, scars him with acid. Harvey goes insane and Batman finds the Holiday guns in his house, putting more fuel on the fire of his reputation. On Falcone's birthday, Holiday kills his sister; and when Harvey attacks Maroni's transport on Labour Day, Holiday snipes Maroni.
Because her husband is now A.) the primary suspect and B.) a supervillain, Gilda is given police protection and has to stay in her house the next Halloween. Not that it matters, as Two-Face leads on assault on the Falcones and personally kills Carmine.
Batman confronts Gilda as she burns her Holiday artefacts. She explains her motives, expressing no remorse for what she did to the Falcone family. She is somewhat regretful for what she did to Harvey ("In the end, I loved him. But not all of him"), and tells Batman that Holiday is finished.
Magnificence and Mitigating Factors
Manages to torment a powerful mob family over the course of a year, orchestrating their complete destruction with no one even suspecting her until the very end.
I'm not 100% sure how much of what happened to Harvey was her fault — did she intentionally frame him? Was his descent into supervillain by design? Or was it all a happy accident? The way the Maroni situation went down makes it seem like it was all on purpose (or, at the very least, Gilda decided not to look a gift horse in the mouth and take advantage of the omnipresent rumors of Dent being the killer), which I personally find exceedingly cruel. That said, it still works out in the end — the Falcones are dead, Gilda feels bad but was never "in love" with him anyway, and while Harvey's in jail he seems content that he finally stopped Carmine, so... I dunno.
Is she a bastard?
Even if her victims are mobsters, she's still a Serial Killer. Plus, Alberto's only crime was not standing up for her, and she kills him by shooting him and letting him fall into yacht propellers.
Will get to Harvey himself in a bit. Thoughts?
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Aug 14th 2021 at 4:18:01 AM
to Hanekoma, Pied Piper, Lord Asriel, Alice Angel, Wamuu, Holden Webster, Captain Boomerang, Kingpin, Catwoman, Albert Laurent, Allen Lloyd, Gendo and Gilda Dent.
A total has-been.
Laurent, Allen, and definite Gendo Ikari, a less charismatic but still no less magnificent Lionel Luthor type figure.
Woagh
to the Arrow candidates, The Holiday Killer and Gendo Ikari.
Holiday. Loved The Long Halloween as a kid. Is the movie any good?
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 14th 2021 at 7:44:27 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Holiday.
Yeah to Gilda/Holiday.
Lies and Violence!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
x3 Aside from Gilda getting away, I thought it was pretty good.
Lies and Violence!
And now for the fun one! Batman: The Long Halloween again. I don't think he needs much introduction, but nevertheless:
The candidate
Harvey Dent is Gotham's DA and Gilda's husband, who's working with Commissioner Gordon and Batman to take down Falcone. One night, he and Batman find where Falcone hides his laundered money. Knowing he'll just get it back if they bring it to the police, Catwoman proposes just burning the money — Harvey is hesitant, but Batman gets him to agree to a coin flip. This is where he gets his signature double-sided coin, and when he realizes he's been tricked he laughs it off.
Anyway, Falcone retaliates by having the Triad blow up his house, Holiday retaliating in turn by killing the gang on Thanksgiving. As the Holiday killings continue Batman begins to suspect Harvey is the killer. He's well known to be somewhat obsessed with taking down Falcone, and had earlier failed a psyche evaluation for a gun license.
Stressed from dealing with Falcone, Holiday, and the suspicion of being Holiday, Harvey begins to slowly lose it, beginning to hear a voice in his head. Maroni comes to Dent offering to testify against Falcone, but since Holiday killed his dad and he believes Dent is Holiday, Maroni instead splashes him with acid on the stand.
This is the final straw, and Harvey loses it — the voice in his head offers to "take over." Two-Face escapes the hospital to talk to Falcone, but Falcone, being an asshole, doesn't show up at their meet and tries to have him killed. Two-Face easily kills the assassins and is washed into the sewer, where he meets immortal zombie Solomon Grundy and convinces him to help in his revenge.
The two proceed to attack Maroni's prison transport. Two-Face is confronted by Batman and Gordon, who inform him that they found Holiday's guns in Harvey's basement. Harvey immediately realizes it's his wife, preventing the two from trying to chase Holiday when she suddenly snipes Maroni before beating his own escape.
When Halloween comes around, Two-Face and Grundy attack Arkham Asylum. He offers each villain a coin flip to determine whether he lets them out (Calendar Man picked tails, so he's the only one left stuck in Arkham). He sends half of the villains to cause chaos in the city as a distraction while he takes the others to assault Falcone's penthouse.
Being supervillains, they easily manage to kill all the guards. With Falcone at his mercy, Two-Face remarks how he's tired of judging whether people are guilty or innocent, and scratches out one side of his double-sided coin. The coin will decide his fate.
While Batman and Catwoman manage to beat all the other villains, the coin lands on its scarred side and Two-Face still manages to kill Falcone. He proceeds to turn himself in to Gordon, taking credit for all of the Holiday killings to keep Gilda safe.
Is he magnificent?
As DA, Harvey is as useful as any other figure of legal authority in Gotham — so basically nothing ever works out for him. As Two-Face? He's exceedingly competent, managing to unite a bunch of insane villains under his leadership and annihilate the rest of the Falcone family.
Being Two-Face, he of course has the usual mitigating factors:
- His split-personality. While previous versions probably wouldn't apply due to this making him too unstable, here it's pretty understated. Two-Face states that he's "taking over," and both he and Gilda remark that Harvey is already dead, but otherwise he still feels like the same Harvey throughout the rest of the movie.
- His compulsion to flip a coin. It only really comes up when he's preparing to execute Falcone, and the only evidence we have that it's a legitimate compulsion is how he briefly freaks out when he loses the coin. Even then, said freak-out is very brief, and he easily gets the coin back before killing Falcone.
Then there's the third mitigating factor in that he might have been manipulated by Gilda, but if that actually is the case then it only happened when he was Harvey. After becoming Two-Face he easily figures out what his wife was doing, not ratting her out because A.) he loves her and B.) he also really wants Carmine dead.
Is he a bastard?
Supervillain, looses a bunch of other villains to rampage across the city.
Verdict
All the usual problems that prevent Two-Face from working are heavily downplayed, and even with Holiday's shadow looming over everyone he remains a competent and intelligent supervillain. I think he's an easy keeper.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Aug 14th 2021 at 5:08:34 AM
Two-face.
Hell yeah to Gendo.