During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Kaetsu.
Merlock's a no-go, btw. mir is totally right about how the "sunk Atlantis/made Pompeii erupt" thing is portrayed (there's no indication anybody actually got hurt), but he's on the receiving end of way too much slapstick to come off as properly magnificent.
Edited by DocSharp on Apr 22nd 2021 at 8:03:21 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The acts of making Mount Vesuvius erupt and Atlantis sink are treated as Fridge Horror. So yeah, they’re not explicit and thus, how much it does or doesn’t work against him is opened more widely to interpretation. I agree about the slapstick bits though.
Woagh
So has anyone discussed a certain PS 1 Aladdin game before? Having seen a walkthrough, its Big Bad looks promising.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I'll wait till tomorrow for it, it's getting late. I will admit that she does a lot more than I expected tbh.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Apr 22nd 2021 at 8:48:55 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Nope. Go for it!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Filler, Klaus, Bain, Goldie, and Kaetsu. Flipping to ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
the Ironside Daleks.
The MILF Virus
Kaetsu
So I'll probably do Kai and Claude later down the in Valkyria Chronicles 4, but I got someone else I want to do first. This is an candidate from EXA_PICO and from my favorite of all time actually. I was wondering if he qualifies due to how far he goes, but you know what after getting a better understanding of this trope I think he stands. Let's talk about Chester Lu Whinoah from Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica.
What is the setting?
Ar Tonelico is part of the EXA_PICO series, a multi franchise series revolving around a world where song is power. Where there are people, in Ar Tonelico they are called Reyvateils, who sing to manipulate the waves the create reality to perform miracles, supernatural feats, and other forms of magic, with a massive lore and history including it's own Laws of Physics, timeline, and even on Original Language that was created by mixing together so many real-life ones, such as Japanese, Sansrit, Bolgerian, Russian and so many more.
For this entree, the story is about Metafalss the 2nd Tower of Ar Tonelico in the planet Ra Ciel. The land is dying and becoming harder and harder to live in with an ever-increasing population and the land becoming smaller and less suitable to live in. There is a legendary called Metafalica which is said to be a green land that can be turned into a Paradise which has to be created through song and 400 years before the game's setting, the nation tried to summon Metafalica led by two Holy Maidens, the Maiden of Homura and Maiden of Mio. However because the Goddess of the 2nd Tower interfered, the plan failed and Metafalss continues to struggle with their situation, eventually, the people started calling their own world the curse lands.
Here enters one of our two heroines, Cloche Leyta Pastiele, who is the figurehead of the Grand Bell, the government of Metafalss who used to worship the Goddess, but lately had a change of heart and decided to declare war on her and her forces at the heavens, which ultimately led to massive political revolutions and movements happening. To put a massively complicated and moving story simple, the story is split into 5 Phases, which I would call arcs. Each arc focuses on a certain situation or event revolving around this war and the creation of Metafalica. Let's say the history I told is not what I seem, but let's focus on Chester. Chester one of the leaders of one of the factions, The Sacred Army, who opposes the Grand Bell's fight against the Goddess, only for that to have ulterior motives as well, that can affect the whole population.
Who is Chester and what does she do?
One of the leaders of the Sacred Army who supposedly supports the Goddess Frelia, Chester Lu Whinoah is a former researcher of the Grand Bell. However, after learning the Grand Bell was responsible for the raid of his home and kidnapping his girlfriend Sonia turning her into the I.P.D magnifier and system Lakra, Chester snapped. Alligning with the Grand Bell, Chester had plans to get revenge on the Grand Bell for what they've done and also a twisted way to achieve peace with his lover. The plan is to launch EXEC_HIBERNATION, a song believed left by the Goddess to achieve true peace by trapping everyone's soul inside the satellite Infel Phira and living their in peace, surpassing the physical world and no longer having to feel pain or sadness. Though if you were here when I proposed Infel, you'd know it was a set-up so she could have Nenesha resurrected and sing together EXEC_SUBLIMATION.
To achieve this goal, Chester had Amarie spy on the Holy Maiden Cloche where he learned later, one of her knight's associate, Luca the other heroine of the story, is actually the true bloodline of the royal family that was overthrown and executed by Alfman and the current Grand Bell regime. To make sure it's the truth. Chester had Amarie test out Luca's claim of inheritance which was later proven when she sang a song inherited by those of the royal family. With all the elements in place, Chester snucked in the Grand Bell with the help of Amarie and asked Luca to join him and the Sacred Army which she reluctantly accepts to save her sister Reyka who she believed is still trapped in the Grand Bell's prison camps.
With Luca, Chester hijacked Cloche's birthday celebration and speech by presenting Luca to the masses claiming she's the real Holy Maiden and had her sing to show proof of being the true inheritor. This caused a stir within the masses which Chester hoped for and gave the Sacred Army a foothold against the Grand Bell. He then saved Luca and Amarie from the Grand Bell prisons after they tried to look for Reyka only for them to be told she was killed. While escaping with the two, Chester was also told Croix and Cocona were also given an offer to join them and accept the two, in which if he does, Chester will instruct the main party to find a special Song Magic for Luca to sing to try countering Cloche's REPLEKIA.
After this, Chester mainly stays at the background scheming EXEC_HIBERNATION, though he and Amarie does find Sonia later as Lakra where Amarie learned Chester might have more dubious intentions later on. He then saves the party from the falling continent of Gaea later where he has them execute Alfman to put an end to the current Grand Bell regime before saving them when escaping his ship that's about to crash. After this, Chester begins executing his final plan.
With the Sacred Army now place as the leaders of the nations, Chester and Targana had the Goddess Frelia, someone they actually had all along and kept hidden, sing EXEC_HIBERNATION while also planning to execute Luca and Cloche when they decided to defy them. While that happens, Chester decides to go to his girlfriend's prison to help finish HIBERNATION by sacrifing all the IPD and defending her when the party comes to stop them. When it was made clear stopping Lakra is impossible in the real world, the party decides to go to the main center of the IPD by diving in a shop to convince Lakra to stop, which didn't work but thanks to Luca's courage and Targana's honestly incompetence, Luca was able to get the Goddess Frelia back to her senses and stop the singing. With this, the song backfired and Lakra ends up getting swallowed by a monster formed by the anger and hatred of the IP Ds which Chester tried to stop and failed. After the monster is defeated and Lakra is saved, Chester believing Sonia is truly gone tries to commit suicide only for Amarie to snap back at him for trying to run and ask he tries to make-up for all he has done which Chester agrees believing he has no more purpose though he does ask forgiveness from Amarie for using her giving her and the party the song to restore the IPD from their attempted sacrifice.
He spends the rest of the game assisting the heroes in singing Metafalica by having the Sacred Army assist them. While this, Lakra returned to her senses and with her, he vows to help Cloche and Luca to their goal for repentance which ultimately succeeds.
Is he Magnificent?
Yeah, he was the brains of the Sacred Army, and was the only one of the factions who was very successful in his manipulation and set-ups and was very close to in his plan to execute EXEC_HIBERATION had it not been for Luca's inteference. That said, Infel did set this up for her own plans, having EXEC_HIBERNATION be performed, but she was expecting the Royal Family to do it, Chester an outsider and Teru was the closest to have it done and while Infel layed the ground work, it was still up to Chester to execute it so that has to account for something.
Too Much of a Bastard?
Admittedly he was willing to lie and manipulate Amarie and Luca, even playing with Amarie's feelings and was ready to sacrifice all the IPD for his goals, but ultimately Chester does believe what he's doing is a way he can save them. Also he does show he genuinely cares about Amarie and Sonia and does redeem himself by giving the group the song to fix what he has done, helped led the Sacred Army to support Cloche, and placed his faith to the Maidens with the task of singing Metafalica despite his doubts, making his own effort to make it happen.
Final Verdict:
Got to say another keeper for EXA_PICO. I actually got 2 more in mind that I believe are guaranteed keepers and 2 less sure but I can see them qualify in the series.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Apr 22nd 2021 at 11:01:17 AM
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Since I finally get a day off tomorrow after a very busy week, I'm gonna get this write up finally done before doing my first Disco Elysium effort post tomorrow. at first, I thought I only had 2 easy keepers, but I think I found a third. Anyways...
Dark Sun: Kosveret the Mind Lord is an ancient and powerful elven psionicist who rules over the Last Sea, among the last fertile lands on Athas, alongside his colleagues Thesik and Barani. Many millennia ago, the trio received a message from the future warning of the defilement that would ravage the world and Kosveret researched a mental technique that let them see into the future and observe the destruction. Reluctantly placing their minds into obsidian orbs to live forever, the Mind Lords rule a tyrannical utopia where discontent is punished with psionic reeducation or mental enslavement in orbs, yet save their people by creating an impenetrable barrier around the valley, creating the cleanest water on the planet to drink, and saving the non-humans from genocide by the Champions of Rajaat. Kosveret is the mad god of happiness to his people and travels around playing usually harmless yet often harmful pranks whenever it fancies him. Secretly wanting to finally die after millennia of insanity, Kosveret murders many innocents and steals their brains to use to travel back in time to stop the warning from occurring, only to unintentionally deliver the message himself and ensure his own fate.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
The wifi here sucks
yes to Chester, sounds like a very complicated and interesting story.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Goku Black
Chester
Chester.
I do have a question, was the reason he defeated Grand Bell and wanted the Sacred Army to be the ones to listen to the song, was cause he didn't want the Grand Bell to experience 'paradise'?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The MILF Virus
OK to clarify, The Sacred Army didn't believe in Metafalica or the paradise that you were talking about, because even if Cloche and Luca sang and summoned the greenland that the people can live in, it wouldn't lead to peace because they think the nature of people they will continue fighting. Plus for Metafalica to be made, the entire nation has to unite as one, which was considered impossible so they thought it was a lost cause and would be another failure. They believe EXEC_HIBERNATION is the only way to achieve peace which he wanted with Sonia.
The reason he wanted the Grand Bell to fall is that the current regime was the biggest obstacle in accomplishing EXEC_HIBERNATION especially Alfman who overthrow the old Grand Bell who was in support of HIBERNATION instead of Metafalica plus personally revenge because they raided his home and turned his girlfriend into a human computer system for years.
Ultimately after his defeat and his planned failed, Amarie convinced Chester to hold on to hope that Sonia will recover and to help summon Metafalica believing they can get the nation together to successful sing and summon Metafalica.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
I think you might want to retype that. You say they don't want it to succeed but then you say they do. I think you mean Chester wants it to succeed. Nevermind misread the first few sentences.
Still my question is more why can't he broadcast it to the whole world? Why does he need to defeat Grand Bell to do that? Honestly at this point I feel like I'm getting hung up on little details. I'm still an .
But why does he need to kill them to do that? Why can't he just do it with out their approval? Is it just something the game takes as a given that he won't be able to do without them being defeated?
Alright thank you. My is solidified.
Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 23rd 2021 at 10:38:30 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The MILF Virus
Do you mean EXEC_HIBERNATION? EXEC_HIBERNATION is a Song that will kill all the IPD as sacrifices so that all the souls in Metafalss inside will go Infel Phira to live inside in peaceful bliss, but that also means losing their mind. The current Grand Bell was completely against that which is why for Chester to make it happen he needs the Grand Bell to fall so they could execute it.
Because the Grand Bell will keep standing in their way, even if they start the singing EXEC_HIBERNATION if the Grand Bell is still around they will attack and attempt to stop them and with their forces and resources, they could do it. Of course the nation's governement will notice the Sacred Army attempting it since it will affect everyone. Also the set-up requires Lakra who in custody of the Grand Bell and the Grand Bell Palace, the Grand Bell's headquarters. Considering how Luca was able to stop it by getting close Frelia and snapping her out of it which ruined the plan, thanks to Targana being too reckless in getting it done, imagine an entire military stopping it. Mind you this was intentional by the Grand Bell to prevent the Song from happening.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Apr 23rd 2021 at 7:37:16 AM
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Goldie, Kaetsu, and Chester.
Found another quote. This time from Thanos:
Woagh
for Klaus, Bain, Goldie, Kaetsu, and Chester.
Did we not already have a Thanos quote? Surprising. for me.
to Chester
That quote’s also the one used for Hero Killer I believe.
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to Chester.
Also the MCU Fisk now has his own page. MCU: Kingpin.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I think you're fine bud... he's taking the law into his own hands and murdering someone who went on to feel remorse for his crimes. It's like the MAX version of Punisher who counts and was going after retired criminals.