During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah another great villain but not this. Actually Giovanni has already been ep'd. Hes about two pages back.
Maybe colress could count ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ah, yeah? Looking back now. I'm going to say yes to him. Consistent Graceful Loser, never too evil for the trope, and easily stylish and charismatic enough. Colress is the only one I can see counting otherwise from the main games.
Foreign Troper
My Witcher write-up for Jacques. Kinda had a writers block on that one, does it look ok?
- Jacques de Aldersberg, Grand Master of the Order of the Flaming Rose, is the mastermind behind all major events in the first game. Having made power plays with both people in high places as well as in the criminal underworld, he sets a plan in motion to destabilize the kingdom of Temeria, leading his knights on a crusade against non-humans and thus provoking the militant Scoia'tael, which ultimately ends in a bloody civil war. This puts King Foltest into a delicate situation, where he either has to give Jacques full authority to end the revolt or do nothing, making him look like a weak ruler. His kinghts are secretly funded by the drug money his ally, the criminal organization Salamandra, makes for him, which allows Jacques to present the order as humble heroes of the people who fulfill their needs for free. His ultimate plan is turning mankind into highly advanced mutants with the help of the stolen Witcher Secrets, and leading them southwards to survive the incoming White Frost. Throughout his conversations with Geralt, who later turns out was his former adoptive father, he tries to convince him of the righteousness of his cause, having sacrificed everything to save humanity (wether it wants it or not) in an almost flawlessly executed scheme.
Goku Black
Oh yeah Colress is one of the only villains to effectivly come out on top and he does it all while being stylish, cool and Affably Evil. He'll make a fine candiatae for MB which is iroic as he didnt actually have an entry on the main page.
So since were in a Pokemon mood. How does anyone feel about darkrai and dusknoir from Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers becuase I have no clue on either of them myself
- Magnificent Bastard: MASSIVE spoilers.
- Dusknoir. Pursuing the player and Grovyle into the past, he poses as a friendly explorer using his knowledge of the future in order to pick up information. He successfully deceives Treasure Town into helping him capture Grovyle, thereby dooming the future to paralysis, and even drags the amnesic player back to the future just in case they regain their memory (this one is more implied). Once Grovyle, the player, and the partner escape, Dusknoir allows them to find Celebi, intending to capture her once she reveals herself, even going as far as to bring Primal Dialga to accompany him, and the party only barely escape him. Despite his ruined reputation, he lies in wait in the past in the Hidden Land, and almost captures the party again, forcing them to slow him down with his Weaksauce Weakness and Grovyle to sacrifice himself by dragging them both back to the future. Once back there, as revealed in Sky, he plots to Grand Theft Me Grovyle, a plan he pulls off almost flawlessly until the conscience he'd developed convinces him to stop.
- Bar none, Darkrai. Their gambits are utterly ridiculous, so let's recap. Goal, create a world of darkness to rule. Step 1, sabotage Temporal Tower, worked flawlessly to the point of occurring in one timeline. Grovyle and the player tried to stop it, and Darkrai attacks them within the Passage of Time, severely limiting their plan when it gave the player amnesia and transformed them into a Pokémon. Despite this, they still fix time. Plan 2, create a the world of darkness by distorting space. Problem: Space works differently (it doesn't drive Palkia crazy like time did for Dialga), and Palkia averts The Gods Must Be Lazy. Solution: blame the player and partner, who genuinely distort space with their presence, thus getting Palkia on their tails. When his ruse is revealed, he retreats to Dark Crater, and puts the player in an illusion to convince them to join him. When that fails, he revels an army of six other Pokémon to help him. Then when THAT fails, he has a dimension hole ready for a getaway, though unfortunately for him, Palkia finally caught him.
Edited by miraculous on Jul 19th 2018 at 2:10:11 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Would anyone mind if I do the effort posts for Dusknoir and Darkrai? I'm about to do some write-ups for them, but if anyone else is planning on doing them, they can go ahead.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to all FE and Pokemon candidates posted here
The Unknown Unknown
It's been a while since I played Mystery Dungeon, but isn't Darkrai a bit too heinous to count?
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Goku Black
Go ahead chasemaddigan and write up ep's on them.
I mean he's bad but the game's format (Which admittingly really pushes the rating) prevents him from doing anything gross and even his worst actions are done for his plan rather then Evil Is Petty. I do think he's worth a discussion at the very least as he's really good at what he's doing.
Edited by miraculous on Jul 19th 2018 at 2:45:33 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
One more for today, and I'll also do a writeup for Shu from Suikoden with my next batch, as I think he counts....one of my favorite DCAU villains now: the demon's head. Ra's al Ghul.
Who is Ra's al Ghul?
Once acknowledged by Batman as his greatest enemy, Ra's is a 600 year old immortal who survives via use of the mystical Lazarus Pits. The father of Batman's sometimes-lover Talia, chronologically, we know Ra's has been involved in a lot, including nearly destroying the transcontinental railroad with his son Arkady Duvall. In present, Ra's shows himself as The Chessmaster, using Talia to organize an elimination of Count Vertigo and to obtain a sonic drill...the plan worked well, but Batman foiled Talia at the end. Heavily impressed, Ra's decided to reveal himself, deducing Batman's identity. Kidnapping Talia and Robin, Ra's lures Batman into 'rescuing' them when Batman deduces things...impressing Ra's, as the whole thing is about, as Ra's wishes, saving the planet from humanity. Ra's loves the world and nature, but he feels humanity is spoiling the world. He wants Batman to become his heir and carry on his legacy, marry Talia and succeed him. Bruce refuses, and so Ra's goes to plan B: flooding the Lazarus pits to overwhelm the world. Bruce protests it'll kill countless people. Ra's comments that they have counted and gives the exact death toll.
Bruce gets free and he and Ra's have a proper, old fashioned sword fight. Ra's is bested and when Bruce offers to save him, Ra's grins and says he desires, instead to become one with the planet he so loves and lets himself fall into the pit below...however, Ra's survives. Ra's is then seeking an ancient Egyptian scroll, of the priestess Thoth Khepera, even denouncing Talia as his daughter when she tries to stop him....unfortunately, Thoth Khepara is a demon who drains people of life, nearly killing Ra's. Ra's manages to recover and escape Batman, and tells Talia she's his daughter again, having her ditch Bats for her dad immediately. Ra's skips off free and clear, leaving Batman only a canteen with him stranded in the desert.
Ra's is later seen pulling off a daring heist to free Arkady Duvall from jail...it turns out? Arkady is dying and all this was for Ra's to "take my boy home" and be with him as he dies. Bruce and Dick step aside and don't fight Ra's over it out of sympathy.
Now, Ra's is later responsible for the 'Near Apocalypse of 2009'...which led to his death supposedly. But instead, Ra's called on Talia to make the 'ultimate sacrifice,' giving up her life to allow him to possess her. Living as Talia, in a pure Villain with Good Publicity manner, he conspired to take Bruce's body, manipulating him as Talia to rejuvenate his body and present himself as Bruce and Talia's long lost son. Things only fail because Terry Mcginnis, the second Batman, interrupts, resulting in Ra's lab burning down. Refusing to be saved, Ra's is left behind as the Lazarus Pit is electrocuted and explodes, killing him once and for all.
Is Ra's charming? Charismatic? A good planner?
One of the few villains who's Bruce's mental and physical equal. David Warner imbued Ra's with pure charm and urbane sophistication. He truly admires Bruce, respects him as an adversary and believes he's worthy to be his heir, conducting himself with an air of compelling charm and just dominating every episode he's in. Seriously, Warner was godly at this. Ra's is always pleasant, rarely loses his cool and for planning? He leads Bruce around by the nose the first episode he's in, plays him expertly later, only leaving open enough for Bruce to see through because he wants him to see through. True, he nearly gets devoured by Thoth Khepara, but he recovers damn quickly and shows why he's Batman's greatest adversary.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Well...he plans to wipe out a huge chunk of humanity, steals his own daughter's body, tries to cause the 'near apocalypse of 2009,' whatever that is and he runs a worldwide league of assassins. Yeah, Ra's is a bad, bad dude. However, Ra's always maintains a form of honor. He truly respects Batman, and his attempted mass murder is done without regard for race, ethnicity or religion. He wants to, as he says, 'save the planet' and you can;t make an omelette, etc. He also, oddly, does love Talia, even if he steals her boy, honoring her sacrifice to him, and he loved Arkady as well, even if Arkady was a sadistic little scumbag who deserved to be imprisoned. Even then, Ra's disapproves or petty sadism and loathes needless cruelty. He's also highly appreciative of his right hand man Ubu, who is fanatically devoted to him.
Conclusion?
I'd give Ra's a big yes.
Darkrai's... bad, I'm not going to lie, but Dusknoir I can see keeping.
By the way, someone removed the Magnificent Bastard entry on The Spectacular Spider-Man again even after I left the note. Could someone restore that and PM the troper? I'm bringing the issue to ATT.
Goku Black
I'll do it. Still cantwait for the ep's on both darkrai and dusknoir. Thoose will be interesting.
Ras al ghul.
I dunno about Darkrai since he's really really evil, but if you say so.
I actually will look at Lusamine from the Ultra games (original Lusamine is too sadistic to count) since she, despite her good intentions, still does bad deeds to achieve her goals. But first I plan to look at the remake versions of Maxie and Archie, since they went from stupid to actually pretty intelligent.
Ra's.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Jul 19th 2018 at 5:55:26 AM
Eh, I don't think Maxie/Archie count either in the remakes. Frankly, their plan is still incredibly poorly thought-out, and this is pointed out in-universe: they nearly cause the apocalypse through the sheer underestimation of Kyogre/Groudon alone and they're too arrogant to see it that way until they're literally only hours away from the death of all life on the planet. Lusamine, as well... I think her also being out-played so thoroughly by Giovanni in the end really hurts her chances of standing out, as well.
Ra's is a yes.
Edited by Scraggle on Jul 19th 2018 at 3:54:26 AM
Yes to everything I've missed. I think if Cyrus has all the parts he can still count, even if not being the most stellar example we're going to get thanks to being poorly written.
Elfen, I've got some exams I have to write for work but I'll take a stab at working on your entries when I've got time, mayne.
Goku Black
Alright I readded the example. If you guys dont mind, I also added a link to this thread so that people can come here if they want to contest the example.
@Satoshi: Oh Im not automatically saying Darkrai counts or anything but do feel he does deserve a discussion.
Edited by miraculous on Jul 19th 2018 at 3:02:37 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Thank you. I've submitted the ATT report and messaged both tropers (apparently there was more than one fighting over this?) who removed the example.
Good point, I won't do Archie and Maxie. And thinking about Lusamine, she still screws up by betraying the people who could actually help her defeat Necrozma. So I don't think she would work either.
I might just move along to the anime.
I'd start with anime!Giovanni there if you want any pointers... can't remember much about the BW arc or Colress, but neither Lysandre, Ghetsis, or Cyrus count (Lysandre in particular was effortposted here and formally voted down).
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
to all the candidates that I missed
@43110 Oh suit yourself m8! And speaking of which @Scraggle @Forenperser Wanna add your guys writeup to the drafts while 43 is busy in the mean time?
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 19th 2018 at 5:08:51 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
The Unknown Unknown
Ra. Now, let's do these writeups before I move on to the next work.
- Fire Emblem Gaiden:
- Jedah leads the Duma Faithful with an iron will and unshakeable faith. Allied with the Rigelian Empire, Jedah focuses primarily on Celica and her group, preying on the former's fatal flaws so he can take her soul to cure Duma of his madness. Showing naught but full loyalty to Duma, molding himself and everyone loyal to him to Duma's doctrines, Jedah controls the heroes up until the end where the Falchion, the one item that can kill Duma, is released. Despite the atrocities he commits in the name of Duma, Jedah is furious the heroes would rather live in a world with an unsure future as opposed to an era of certainly in Duma's chaotic shadow, proving his devotion genuine.
- Emperor Rudolf I was among the few to realize the gods Mila and Duma degenerated from madness, meaning he had to ensure the future of Valentia by any means necessary. He leads a grand conquest of the Valentian continent to feed a starving Rigel as well as make himself a target for a group of heroes to defeat so Rigel and Zofia could unite. Despite leading a war of aggression, Rudolf ensures minimum casualties are sustained and a trusted ally, Ezekiel, keeps his more militant commanders in check. By the time his infamy reaches the ears of Alm, his plan has been set in motion. Before his final battle, he orders his men to surrender upon his death to ensure no further casualties. He may have made mistakes, such as enabling Berkut's pride or telling no one but Mycen of his real heritage, but in the end, his gambit worked: his son became the first king of a united Valentia that lived on for millennia.
Edited by erazor0707 on Jul 19th 2018 at 3:54:20 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Ra’s
I Highly doubt Giovanni from the anime could count, since he smugly says to Mewtwo that he he’s a only tool for him to use despite saying earlier that they were equal partners, it made the Mewtwo go against him.
As for Mewtwo I think he might be worth discussing as with Anime Corless
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 19th 2018 at 1:05:51 AM
@Scraggle Which Lysandre would that be?
As for Giovanni, I have my doubts given that he gets defeated by a young trainer and then disbanded Team Rocket altogether unwillingly to face his underlings for this defeat.
Ultra Sun and Moon are a different matter however. If it's just that, then yes.
Anime Giovanni requires the examination of OS and BW since that's when he's at his most active. I will say that I find his reaction to Mewtwo's escape to be hilarious. As if it was just another bad day at work and he just need a trip to the beach.
Edited by Shadao on Jul 19th 2018 at 4:06:36 AM
The anime version. Actually, speaking plainly, I really don't think any version of Lysandre comes close to counting.
Mewtwo, actually? I think is another definite keep.
Lusamine doesn't count. No way, no how. Too unhinged in the first pair of games, and too short on "bastard" in Ultra. I can see a case being made for Giovanni, though.