The criteria for Unintentionally Unsympathetic says:
"When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly. It can be made even worse if they have to learn a lesson. Without being at least somewhat invested in the characters, the audience might have passed the point of caring when the character finally comes around."
This is the basic criteria of the trope. There is more after but I am not sure what was present from the start and what was edited in afterwords to expand the definition. This trope is becoming more popular, with the page starting to be split-off into sub pages and such. And like all popular YMMV tropes this is causing an influx of bad examples that are probably just one-sided complaining, shoehorning, and bashing which is not in the spirit of this wiki. You can see this is causing issues just by looking at the pages discussion thread. I felt that the trope needed a dedicated cleanup thread. This way edits can be done without causing edit wars and getting people banned.
Some guidelines if a character or event is Unintentionally Unsympathetic.
1. It has to be unintentional on the authors part. It is in the title. All examples that were intentional on the author's part are disqualified by definition.
2. The example should state exactly why the author or narrative intended the subject to have been sympathetic and why it failed to resonate with the audience. If the example can not clearly state these two points, it is a bad example and needs to at minimum be rewritten.
3. Neutral tone: No insults. I know it is fun to complain about stuff but complaining is not in the spirit of the wiki. So long as one side isn't promoting hate speech examples should be written without taking a side. Examples that are heavily favoring one side or insulting the other side are probably not valid examples.
4. There should be a wide accepted disagreement between the audience and the author to be a valid example. By that I mean that there should be large consensus in the audience disagreeing with the author over why the character is unsympathetic instead of sympathetic. If the audience is too divided and one section thinks agrees with the author and the other doesn't, the example could be a pet peeve of a single person, which isn’t noteworthy.
Lastly, always consider Square Peg, Round Trope and be mindful if the example may fit better under a different trope such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, and The Scrappy. Please visit other cleanup threads if you have questions about tropes that do not involve Unintentionally Unsympathetic.
Feel free to help if you spot some bad examples or can point out more rules for the trope. Or argue with me over the definitions, this is a cleanup thread after all.
MOD NOTICE: As of October 26, 2022, this thread now covers Unintentionally Sympathetic as well.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 26th 2022 at 8:15:48 AM
Sorry to say, but consensus is against you. You're allowed to disagree of course, but I think this matter is settled. Best not to re-add it.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The closest she says to that with the speech is that she controls her anger more often which not saying she's better or even saying that his stuff doesn't matter like you claim it is. At no point does she bring up his experiences or invalidate them. It just means that she deals with it differently.
I agree with best not to re-add it.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 27th 2022 at 3:31:53 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Me as a Merman
Hi, I want to bring up this entry from Encanto.
If you take a look at the Edit history for the YMMV page, two UU entries for Alma have been cut in the past. The first entry was cut due to somebody stating that Alma is a case of being intentionally unsympathetic while the second entry was cut due to complaining.
Personally, I feel like Alma is a case of being intentionally unsympathetic as Mirabel called Alma out on her actions which would eventually cause Alma to have a Heel Realization. The part of fans feeling like Alma was Easily Forgiven is also more of a Broken Base (which would go against the fourth point in the OP).
Would rather ask more opinions on this before this get removed as I feel like removing this without asking other people's thoughts might cause an Edit War.
BTW, please call me Jake.
I also don't think she qualifies. She was meant to be unsympathetic for most of the movie, and the main problem people have with her is that she is easily forgiven. But I think her tragic past do resonate with audiences, and I'm not sure how much of a divide there is between the audience and the creator in this case.
I'm not familiar with the fandom to know if the Easily Forgiven issue is powerful and entrenched enough to count as a Broken Base, but I agree that Alma isn't an Unintentionally Unsympathetic example. Her entire character arc is about this. It's basically the plot driver.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Sep 3rd 2022 at 4:53:33 AM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
She / Her
(x3) I agree that she isn't an example.
Me as a Merman
Okay, since it's been 24 hours since I first bought this up, and everyone here seems to agree that Alma doesn't count, I'm going to cut that example then while placing a note that tells other tropers that Alma doesn't count.
Edit- My internet while I was trying to edit, but done.
Edited by MummyGaGa on Sep 4th 2022 at 5:17:16 AM
BTW, please call me Jake.
Angry babby
I dunno about this one. UU seems to be for when a character's negative actions are meant to have some sort of understandable explanation but the fandom doesn't buy it. Given this part of the description:
It's even more exaggerated here than it is with Alma. However I do think she's meant to actually recognize and apologize for her actions and I think even her detractors admit her backstory is really harsh. So I guess some people understand why she acts that way but they still don't necessarily sympathize with her?
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
In my personal experience from what i've seen various people say online, it's not they don't sympathize with her, it's that they feel her forgiveness is a bit rushed. Which, i mean yeah it is, it's a 100 minute Disney movie, they're not gonna spend time unpacking the fact that even when genuine change is made, generational trauma can persist for a long time.
So I think she qualifies more for Easily Forgiven than UU, and even then I would say it's a downplayed example.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Right, people understand Alma and many sympathize with her, people just think they made her too mean and that she should've done more to make up for it.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
KIRBY CAR
While removing a Up To Eleven wick that was added today, I saw this on YMMV.The Seventh Player:
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: It seems like the author goes out of their way to paint Adaine as being the best of the Bad Kids (mainly through Machaira), but this is undercut by the fact that she is leagues less likable here than she is in Dimension 20. She's remarkably ungrateful, considering who else she keeps as company (she was willing to disown Machaira after she failed to call in and check on her once, in what's worth noting as being a completely isolated occurence in a history of consistent check-up calls by this point, later in the day after killing Coach Daybreak when emotions were running high, not only after several months of Machaira having unconditionally given her the affection and compassion that her parents deny her, but only hours after Machaira had once again stood up to Adaine's family on her behalf), she's self-righteous and hypocritical (having the audacity to get angry at Machaira for expressing her concerns aloud as to how much she really values them, given her longevity and agelessness as an elf, after having just persuaded Machaira to essentially mock-seduce her in a replication of one aspect of the tabaxi's painful and sordid past with sex, as well as similarly having the gall to get on Fig's case about the deceitfulness of her Fille Fatale tendencies when, as Fig herself points out, Adaine did nothing to address the romantic tension forming between her and Machaira for the better part of three-to-four months), and she's vain and even downright manipulative (as alluded to before, when Adaine overhears a subdued Anguished Declaration of Love directed towards her from Machaira while she thinks she's asleep, she chooses to stay silent and prioritize processing her own feelings as being more important rather than confronting Machaira and talking about how she feels so that she could at least partially absolve the tabaxi's emotional turmoil over the situation, all the while she continues to simply lap up all of the love that Machaira has always shown her without even once seeing it as a reason to reconsider whether or not she should be hiding the truth from her). Adaine rarely apologizes for or even recognises any of this (and it's just as rarely called out by the rest of the characters, least of all Machaira), and whenever she does (or is called out), it's either so quick and cheap that it barely addresses the reasons why she was called out or needed to apologize in the first place, or she's forgiven so quickly and so unconditionally that it downplays just how damaging her behavior really was. But what really makes her this, at the end of the day, is that when she acts in these ways, the story treats her reasons as being easily understandable, tragically misguided, and as all part of the process of growing up as a teenager and coming to as a budding adult, and all-around presents her as someone who should be pitied and sympathized with... and yet when any of the other teenage characters in the story act in ways that are exactly the same or are similar (particularly Kristen, who also was hit with the Adaptational Jerkass stick), their behavior is treated as being exactly as egregious as it would be realistically, and the consequences for how they behave are played completely straight.
- Machaira could count, too. For a character who's supposed to be a Knight in Sour Armor and is meant to show the ways that trauma and hardship can make a person both stronger and weaker, a lot of her internal ponderings on how much life has mistreated her can enter Wangst territory on occasion (since you'd generally expect such a trauma-hardened character to be far more used to their own personal suffering as a whole), and at its most intense, her Tough Love can come off less like that and more like the author is just using her as a way to bully characters that they don't like. It doesn't help that these attributes are really dialed up a notch once she's Demoted to Satellite Love Interest halfway into the story.
Aside from trimming it down, what else should cleaned?
Edited by ChillyBeanBAM on Sep 7th 2022 at 3:12:24 PM
he/him
Angry babby
Colleen was readded to UU on YMMV.Futurama M 2 The Beast With A Billion Backs. (Seemingly not by the same user.)
- Colleen, Fry's Temporary Love Interest, is presented as a woman in a polyamorous relationship that she wants Fry to join in. The more we see of Colleen's personality, the more it becomes clear that she's actually a terrible woman who has an obsession with basically collecting and sleeping with men of every nationality because "no one man" is enough for her. It even becomes clear that the men she is supposed to be in an official relationship with are not the only ones she sleeps with, as she's shown going on a date with a guy none of her other boyfriends knew about.
This makes it even clearer that she's intentionally unsympathetic. I can't delete it twice without some approval though.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
I say it should go. As written it is obvious the show is painting her in a bad light and that what she does is wrong, so it is not unintentional at all.
Sorry for double posting. I just found this example in Extra Credits:
I would like to see if anyone else could give their opinion. On one hand, I do feel the series painted him too much as a tragic figure and maybe trying to give him too much sympathy. On the other hand, whenever he did something bad, the series doens't endorse it and outright says it will be bad. And in the end shows the bad consequences of these actions.
If you want, you can check the series here
to get an opinion.
I don't think I want to watch it just to give an opinion. As somebody who did a term paper on the Ottoman Empire, IRL I'd consider some of that Inherent in the System, but how the series intentionally and unintentionally plays it might conceivably differ so I dunno how much that helps.
Regarding Spider-Man: Miles Morales, I noticed that the Tinkerer's example was cut, but readded six days later by another user. It's basically the same example rewritten. The original concensus was that the "unsympathetic" part was acknowledged within the story's post-game, and not an execution oversight.
I just found this entry on The Simpsons episode The Simpsons S13 E6 "She of Little Faith"
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: While Lisa's reasons to abandon her religion are just as valid as anybody's, her exact reasoning to do so - that her religion has lost its soul due to the Springfield church being rebuilt as a commercial center - admits a lot of reply. Lisa herself had criticized local Christians before, but usually separated this from her genuine belief in God, yet now she seems to have put the two together and decided that her own vision of Christianity can only be exclusively modulated by the state of her town church. If anything, one could raise a lot of similar critical points about Buddhism, which the episode itself doesn't shy away from when it shows Lenny, a supposed Buddhist, being such a bad believer that he somehow doesn't know who Buddha is.
And I don't see how it makes Lisa come off as unsympathetic, or how it was unintentional.
It's just more Lisa bashing. There's a lot of it. Digging into the exact complexities of why an 8 year old might abandon Christianity and saying her reasons aren't air-tight is hardly the character being UU.
That's one is really bad. It doesn't even TRY to make her unsympathetic, it's just there for complaining, and should be cut.
She / Her
and I agree it's just complaining.
UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Comic Books
- Sonic the Hedgehog (IDW): Readers who have taken issue with Sonic's decisions to let his adversaries go have generally also begun viewing him more in this light, arguing that he's become more insensitive towards other characters who have reason to be skeptical of his choices, seemingly caring more about his own righteousness in letting go of his adversaries than about how it may affect everyone else.Specific examples Sonic also comes off to these readers as being more judgmental and condescending than his usual characterization when being faced with opposing views, and emphasizing his own viewpoint as being noble regardless of his allies' own views.Specific examples
This was trimmed to this citing "Trimming down the entry and removing blatant one-sided arguments".
- Sonic the Hedgehog (IDW): Some readers have taken issue with Sonic's Thou Shall Not Kill attitude, arguing that his decision to let his enemies go has had disastrous, unintentional consequences on those around him.
The revised entry fixes the complaining but now fails to explain how it's unintentional/why they were supposed to be sympathetic. What to do?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Sep 19th 2022 at 8:49:09 AM
'Sup?
Anime & Manga & My Hero Academia
- Himiko Toga, as one of the core members of the League of Villains, is supposed to be a product of societal ills. In her case, she suffered from her Quirk-influenced impulses being shamed as "abnormal", and believes that the world has rejected her humanity. Uraraka starts to feel pity toward her for not seeming to understand what is "normal". Theoretically, she could be seen as a victim of neurodivergent discrimination... until her particular circumstances are scrutinized. Toga's Quirk allows her to transform into others by consuming their blood, with the aforementioned impulse being Bloodlust. Thus, she considers it "normal" to want to stab the people she loves, suck out their blood, and become them. Toga rails against society for clamping down on her expressions of love, but in context, she is essentially complaining that she's not allowed to assault people whenever she wants without consequences. Sympathy for her becomes even more difficult with how quickly she turns on her "beloved" Uraraka and Deku, who are at least trying to understand her, just because they had the gall to reprimand her blatant disregard for other people's lives.
Removed because:
- Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the point of Toga's character? She wants to live a normal life, but her definition of "normal" is so warped and twisted that it's impossible to reconcile. And while Uraraka does sympathize with her, she also fully acknowledges that she's a villain who has to be stopped much like Midoriya wants to help Shigaraki, but acknowledges that he may have to fight and possibly kill him.
At the very least, it looks like it would be a good idea to put back the specific examples of Sonic's Thou Shalt Not Kill policy going horribly wrong.
Goku Black
Yeah that isn't really unintentional.
Edited by miraculous on Oct 1st 2022 at 11:03:19 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Actually, she literally says she is infinitely better at controlling anger THAN HIM, which more or less directly suggesys she finds her own experiences more chsllenging than his. I feel the tropes point absolutely stands.