Condemned by History cleanup thread

Fair. The Overshadowed by Controversy status of The Nostalgia Critic makes it hard to enjoy any of the episodes.

You're right that the AVGN is still pretty well-liked. Even those who complain about the Screenwave era being Seasonal Rot tend to like earlier episodes.

CinemaSins is probably closer to "snarky" than "angry", but it does show that Accentuate the Negative media criticism still has fans.

Edit: Regarding the complaining: This is the DTD page, so some criticism of the DTD works is almost inevitable — we should document why they faced backlash. If the entry stays, we could rewrite it to emphasize that "most of their points consisted of nitpicky, half-baked hot takes rather than any actual analysis" is just many viewers' opinion, and not an objective fact.

Edited by MathsAngelicVersion on Dec 31st 2020 at 6:40:05 PM

Ah, OK. I understand about the complaining.

The "angry reviewer" genre is losing popularity but definitely isn't dead.

I'll confess to being the one who added the entry, but I tried to be as neutral as possible. For reference, here is what I wrote.

• The "Angry Reviewer" style was initially seen as a popular way to review movies/shows/video games, etc. It was popularized in the late 2000's and early 2010's by The Angry Video Game Nerd and The Nostalgia Critic, who would intersperse the review with comedy based on skits, mockery, yelling and swearing. However, in the late 2010's this method started to be seen as more annoying than hilarious, and viewers began to gravitate towards level headed analysis and criticism. It's also worth mentioning that both AVGN and NC have long since abandoned this format, although the skits remained"

Edited by magnumtropus on Dec 31st 2020 at 6:38:10 AM

I'm been following this thread for a few years now, and I'd like to chime in here to present my findings.

From what I've come to understand, Deader than Disco is supposed to be when a work, person, or other related thing that once had tons of fans and was once beloved, but now no longer has any fans and is universally hated. Unfortunately, this has led to people arguing over what should qualify as an example. I didn't previously mind this because DTD is a YMMV item, and I'm pretty sure you all know how YMMV works on this site. However, after witnessing Wednesday's debate over the "angry reviewing style" (which several YouTubers I completely adore have practiced) I couldn't take it any longer.

Like I mentioned before, DTD examples should, at least in theory, be things that went from having tons of fans to not having any. This, however, presents three problems:

1) By this logic, the thing must also be an example of So Bad It's Horrible in addition to DTD, since an SBIH example has to fail to appeal to even the smallest niches. 2) SBIH works are not allowed on the DTD page. 3) DTD therefore does not take into account whether an example is SBIH at all, let alone whether or not it was considered SBIH upon release.

Square Peg, Round Trope is also a notable contributor to the aforementioned example debates. Now I bet you're thinking, "But Square Peg Round Trope doesn't apply to YMMV items, because they're not tropes!" And you know what? You're right. It's not Square Peg Round Trope. It's people trying to shoehorn Square Peg Round Trope on something it doesn't belong in. In other words, they're trying to shoehorn a shoehorn. It's like trying to put a cube in a circle-shaped hole, which is, in turn, inside a triangle-shaped hole.

YMMV items, in a sense, are like Trivia items, in that they are based, at least in part, on objectivity. Yes there is in fact some subjectivity in there (remember what YMMV as an acronym stands for), but in order to back up your opinions, you need facts, and in some cases, the facts are either wrong or are just nonexistent. And that's the key word there: NONEXISTENT. You can't base an example of DTD entirely on your own subjective opinion, you need to provide evidence to back up your opinion. If you feel like the "angry reviewing style" is an example of DTD, provide evidence that proves that literally (emphasis on LITERALLY) nobody else likes that style, either. And considering that the first part of Linkara's Heroes in Crisis review, which was posted this past July, has over 98,000 views as of me writing this (not to mention him having over 124,000 subscribers) it should've been rather obvious that the "angry reviewing style" shouldn't even think about touching the main DTD page with a million-mile pole, let alone a ten foot one.

Which brings me to my conclusion. To put it simply, DTD needs one of two things: 1) a TRS thread, or 2) a spot on the Permanent Red Link Club. The fact I am literally the first person in this entire thread to bring up the possibility of throwing DTD into the PRLC is something I will never understand. I'm not saying you absolutely have to do either of these things, just that you should at least consider them as potential options. With that said, I thank you for reading what I have to say, and I hope you all have a good day.

It was brought up on the TRS thread for Genre-Killer that this trope never went through TRS. To bring this to TRS, you would need to do a wick check to prove misuse though-check out the Wick Check Project thread to get help making a wick check for a possible TRS.

Deader Than Disco doesn't require that literally nobody likes it anymore; that's not even a requirement for So Bad, It's Horrible. Also, note that the pinned post says "Things that are So Bad, It's Horrible don't count [as Deader Than Disco]." A work just has to go from very popular to widely hated to count as Deader Than Disco; people are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

Edited by rjd1922 on Jan 2nd 2021 at 1:18:22 PM

I think my concern with this trope (and why I asked to have it brought to TRS) is even with the description we have far too few examples could theoretically count, meaning Deader Than Disco might be Too Rare to Trope. Even if not literally everyone has to hate something for it to count, the number of people who have to makes this trope potentially too limiting.

Also, as has been brought up in this thread, opinions are not permanent. Something can go from universally hated to beloved very quickly. I can't think of many examples that would be permanent, even Milli Vanilli, who lost their entire reputation virtually overnight, yet have been played on satellite radio before which means that enough people enjoy it for it not to count for this trope. I don't think we can trope this concept because there are too many variables and the concept is too vague.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jan 2nd 2021 at 2:47:51 PM

I've been thinking this is too rare for ages now.

I don't understand why you would want Permanent Red Link Club for this. Which category would it fit?

• Reducing the overall quality of the wiki (e.g. Did Not Do The Research)
• Severely misused trope name (e.g. I Got Better)
• Recreated after cut (e.g. Kind Red Eyes)
• Pure complaining (e.g. Synthesizeritis)
• Too controversial (e.g. Dueling Musicians)
• Too NSFW (e.g. Naked Shotaro Boy)
• Other (e.g. Depression Fuel)

Edited by LaundryPizza03 on Jan 2nd 2021 at 5:49:46 AM

PRLC-ing pages in the Main namespace comes from a time when YKTTW wasn't required to create pages in the Main namespace. It's a deprecated practice nowadays.

So are you saying it's impossible for a work not to start out as So Bad It's Horrible, then become SBIH over time? Because that's what I thought.

That's disappointing. It felt like a perfect fit to me, but I guess it's anything but.

Wait, this is a trope? Because last I checked, YMMV items are not tropes. Or did I misread the YMMV Home Page?

Edited by JHD on Jan 2nd 2021 at 7:47:46 AM

Should I add the example of waterbeds in the Real Life folder (in the Other section)?

Waterbeds were extremely popular during the 1970s and 1980s as they were a much softer alternative to the dominant spring mattress at the time. However, they quickly became forgotten during the 1990s amid concerns about the bed rupturing and foam mattresses became popular.

If there wasn't an explicit backlash and it was just "forgotten," it isn't this trope. Also I'm pretty sure we don't trope waterbeds.

Thanks for the clarification.

I just removed these from Prowrest folder.

• Alberto Del Rio's "Ted DiBiase meets John "Bradshaw" Layfield meets Eddie Guerrero" gimmick was a hit with fans when he debuted with WWE in 2009. He quickly became one of the most popular heels on the roster, winning the Royal Rumble six months into his debut and scoring a championship match at WrestleMania 27. While he lost, Del Rio was able to rebound at that year's Money in the Bank, winning the contract for the WWE Championship and cashing it in on CM Punk at that year's SummerSlam. That win, however, marked the peak of Del Rio's success; he lost the title to John Cena in his first defense and quickly faded into the background. Del Rio took a few months off before returning to feud with Sheamus, which was quickly decried by fans as boring. Del Rio faded into the background again, ultimately being fired after getting into a fight with a backstage worker. Del Rio returned to WWE in 2015, but the fans showed nothing but apathy towards him. His relationship with Paige saw the two continuously getting into trouble with the WWE Wellness Policy, and less than a year after his return, Del Rio was gone once again. The final nail in the coffin came from his engagement to Paige ending amidst allegations of Domestic Abuse on Del Rio's part. Today, Alberto Del Rio is seen by fans as an example of an overhyped heel who failed to make any lasting impact, reeked of mediocrity, and proved to be an utterly embarrassing person outside kayfabe. These days, few people will admit to having ever liked him.
• New Jack. While wildly popular in the 90s and early 2000s, Jack's bad attitude, reputation for extreme violence in the ring, substance problems and the self-destruction of his body from years of balcony dives have left him largely marginalized in the wrestling industry. Since he's never wrestled for WWE, very few casual wrestling fans have ever heard of New Jack and even many hardcore fans only hear his name crop up nowadays when he has one of his "incidents."

The first might be Overshadowed by Controversy, but since the worst he got on the ring is "the fans showed nothing but apathy towards him", I don't think it count. The latter is clearly not DTD.

Should we add the song "Afternoon Delight"? It was clearly popular at the time — it topped the Hot 100, made #12 on the Year-End List, and was nominated for three Grammies, winning one. If it's brought up today, it's most likely to make fun of it for being a cheesy Intercourse with You song that doesn't sound sexy at all. Todd in the Shadows summed it up like this:

That sounds like it qualifies.

I think ADR could qualify for this as he was pretty over in his first WWE run, and it was only in his subsequent runs that he started having X-Pac Heat and getting into legal trouble.

Afternoon Delight might qualify under our current rules. I have not seen much non-snarky talk of the song.

Does Tumblr qualify under here? Naturally, it used to be one of the big social media websites alongside Twitter, Reddit, and Facebook. However, thanks to it being inflamed by a controversial decision, nowadays I rarely see people bring up their Tumblr accounts, and I heard it was sold to a fraction of a billion dollars to Wordpress.

It's unlikely DTD. Despite Tumblr losing users due the pr0n ban, there are still a number of active users, but I would likely say that few people will talk about Tumblr now that when it used to.

It had been added once at the "New Media" section, but it was cut due to not fitting the criteria and had poor formatting. It had been suggested to put it on Overshadowed by Controversy though.

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Feb 10th 2021 at 6:16:11 PM

Would the clothing chain Steve & Barry's count? Until a few years into the 21st century, they were a beloved university sportswear clothing chain that had only a handful of locations, a simple and effective business model, a crap ton of awards from various industries, and a reputation as one of the fastest-growing retail chains in the country. (See this article).

Nowadays, and as early as 2010, they're remembered solely as "that chain that sold cheap crappy clothes in half of an abandoned Kmart in the ghetto".

Is this enough evidence to show that they've gone from "universally loved" to "universally hated"/

We're going to need more examples.

Per The Other Wiki:

"The continuing product line expansion and store growth allowed the company to achieve a 50% annual growth rate over more than two decades.[10][11][12][13] The International Council of Shopping Centers named Steve & Barry’s as the “Hot Retailer of the Year” in 2005, along with Apple Computer and Williams-Sonoma, for generating the most mall traffic and cachet...For several years, the company was the fastest growing specialty retailer in the United States, adding 3,200,000 square feet (300,000 m2) of new retail space in 2005, 6,000,000 square feet (560,000 m2) of new retail space in 2006, and 5,250,000 square feet (488,000 m2) of new retail space in 2007"

Another article on its demise which has negative opinions on its business model

Blog entry highlighting the decline, contrasting the earlier well-received stores with the later rundown stores

"By and large, the foray into malls was characterized principally by the company’s ability to absorb vast department-store locations with reckless abandon and little attention paid to establishing an overarching design theme or concept...Haphazard, strewn together, and at times hastily assembled, tenant partitions, floor layouts, change rooms, restrooms and fixtures would often be carry-overs. "

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/71217882/ <—"What took Steve & Barry's down was opening 100,000 square feet in a Builder's Square with no visibility", news article showing that as early as 2010, the freshly defunct chain was known almost entirely for haphazardly recycling big-box stores

I think the latter two in particular show how the chain's reputation changed from "hot popular cheap clothing store" to "selling shitty T-shirts in half of an abandoned Kmart" and they are now known entirely for the latter.