Adding examples ahead of time

The title's a bit of a whasname but I couldn't think of a better one.

Anyway, what's the policy on adding examples to the page of a television show before the episodes containing those examples actually air?

To use a relevant contention, part of the Young Justice episode "Denial" was released online(the whole episode isn't scheduled two or three weeks from now) and a number of tropes were added for it. I figured it'd be better to wait until it aired, but I might be wrong, so I bring it here to this place.

I added said tropes, on the grounds that we have entire pages dedicated to things for which we've only seen a trailer: Mass Effect 3 and Final Fantasy Versus XIII are the two examples I used.

Anaheyla says this is apples and oranges. I don't see it.

I'm okay with adding factual tropes that appear to be in use. YMMV can wait their damn turn though.

As long as it's definitely there, it should be fine. Definitely no speculation or extrapolation, though.

If it would be a trailer, I'd say no, given that Trailers Always Lie. However, it is an actual part of the episode that will air, so I don't see the problem. Even if it turn out wrong in the end, we can always change it.

I'm not sure this is true of Young Justice in particular, but it seems like with animated series in particular, it's not uncommon for them to air in Australia or Botswana or someplace before North America, and as soon as that happens, lots of people are watching illegal downloads, and perhaps troping from them.

I don't see where it would be a problem, except if the material doesn't actually end up being used in the work.

For current, actively troped works, I'd assume that Wiki Magic would clean up any errors once the episode in question airs, although it personally strikes me as a bit silly to add future tropes.

Adding trope examples for things that haven't been made readily apparent is definitely a problem in some places. Batman Arkham City, for instance, is rife with several examples based on unfounded opinions and fan speculation, peppered with phrases like "while the full details aren't available yet...", "time will tell if this is relevant to the plot", and "possibly".

edited 11th Feb '11 6:44:35 AM by SeanMurrayI

Yeah, that's bad. It makes the page look like a gypsy fortuneteller has been vandalizing it.

Pages that are for upcoming works, especially highly anticipated upcoming works, seem to need more policing than anything other than a popular work that just came out, in my experience. But I do think that if a trope is clearly in the work, it can be added. If it's a non-minor spoiler for something not yet released, it should be in spoiler tags, though.

I sort of regret creating the Final Fantasy Versus XIII page, because I spend more time on it than most of the pages on my watch simply because people can't seem resist adding info as it comes out in Thread Mode form or adding speculation or fan reactions to the page.

I'm for cracking down and just deleting these articles if the work in question hasn't actually been released anywhere yet. Adding tropes based on some screenshots or leaked details seems like jumping the gun to me.

Adding objective tropes is fine IMO YMMV however is not.

The Mass Effect 3 page seems quite good.

^To be fair, YMMV articles shouldn't be on any main work page in the first place (unless it's related to something in-universe).

Objective tropes are a problem, however, when a work has not been released (or even completed yet) and listed tropes are basically just expectations and theories from fans based on trailers and interviews. Again, the Batman Arkham City page is an example of this; for the most part, this is more of a trope list for trailers and promotional materials pertaining to the work—not a trope list for the work itself. That same reasoning would also apply to the Mass Effect 3 page where listed tropes are mostly related to material in a trailer (and a teaser at that), not the work.

edited 11th Feb '11 8:45:04 AM by SeanMurrayI

No, deleting the pages would be a mistake. Some tropes unarguably exist even if all you have to work with so far are images, teasers, and/or trailers. Setting and costume tropes, for example, only really need an image to determine if they exist or not. Word of God in the form of interviews can also give definite tropes (such as Darker and Edgier and Old Save Bonus on Final Fantasy XIII-2).

edited 11th Feb '11 8:53:27 AM by ccoa

Though I can think of, at least, two good reasons why we shouldn't list tropes that appear to be present in trailers and screenshots.

(1) If the work hasn't been released yet, any of that material could still technically be subject to change and may not even show up in the final work at all.

(2) We still don't know the full context of the work as a whole from which we can confidently try and make sense of anything we see in trailers and screenshots.

Basically, there's a reason why a pages like Never Trust a Trailer, Missing Trailer Scene, and Covers Always Lie exist.

edited 11th Feb '11 9:07:37 AM by SeanMurrayI

There's also a reason Wiki Magic exists. If a trope turns out to be wrong, it can be changed. After all, anything episodic is also subject to change - a character who at first appears to be a Jerkass turns out to be Jerk with a Heart of Gold. No big deal, just change the page.

There are also degrees to what can change given a trailer or screenshot. Sure, minor things might change, but if the setting is Steampunk it's probably not going to abruptly change to Cyberpunk between the release of the trailer and the release of the media. It's also unlikely that a Cyberpunk media will be billed as Steampunk. Just to name one example.

Not troping something unreleased because we might be wrong seems overly cautious. For every trailer or cover that lies, there's one that spoils and a dozen that do neither, after all. The "Always" in those trope titles is very misleading.

Just to put out an example, most of the tropes gleaned from the Avatar trailers turned out to be right on the money.

Besides, telling tropers they can't trope is only going to cause trouble. It's ingrained in many of our natures to catalog the tropes as they appear.

edited 11th Feb '11 9:08:26 AM by ccoa

Sure, minor things might change, but if the setting is Steampunk it's probably not going to abruptly change to Cyberpunk between the release of the trailer and the release of the media.

Not exactly. How much does the (allegedly) upcoming Duke Nukem Forever, for instance, actually resemble what it looked like when trailers and promotional material was first made public well over ten years ago? Characters (other than Duke), settings, and plot points have changed so often with every new promotional update every few years or so that it's impossible to come to a conclusion about anything involving that work, apart from the most meta, trivia-based concepts, like Development Hell.

We really can't set anything about a yet-to-be-released work in stone.

edited 11th Feb '11 9:25:54 AM by SeanMurrayI

That's not exactly a fair example, given how many times the game was restarted during development and how it has changed hands during development. Picking an example from the far end of the Bell curve to support your argument is hardly fair play.

Let's look at something a little less skewed, shall we?

From the page on the upcoming film Cowboys And Aliens, one I don't curate and is hopefully averagely maintained:

• Actor Allusion: Averted as Speilberg asked that Ford wouldn't wear a cowboy hat to avoid reminding people of Indiana Jones.
  • If the trailer is anything to go by, the request wasn't heeded.

Example with natter. Based on a Word of God, but changed. This should be edited or removed pending further information.

• Alien Invasion

Extremely unlikely to be false, given the title of the movie and what is shown in the trailers.

• Arm Cannon: the device attached to Lonergan's arm packs a hell of punch.

Almost definitely exists. Is shown multiple times in the trailer.

• Badass: Lonergan. the trailer opens with him calmly and easily killing a half-dozen bounty hunters while completely unarmed.

Possibly not. This scene may not appear in the movie. Given the nature/tone of the movie, though, it's likely to be true, regardless.

• Bounty Hunter: The people seen at the beginning of the trailer, who try to arrest Lonergan. They fail.

See above, but without the caveat.

• Cool Versus Awesome: Cowboys. Versus. ALIENS.

Definitely present.

• Cowboy: Of course.

Definitely present.

• Criminal Amnesiac

Shown in multiple scenes in the trailer. Highly likely.

• Exactly What It Says on the Tin

Definitely present.

• Outside-Context Villain: Alien invaders isn't exactly something the average 19th century cowboy would even consider...

Definitely present.

• Playing Against Type: Harrison Ford is a Corrupt Hick who rules the town with an iron fist.

Definitely present.

• The Western: WITH ALIENS!

Definitely present.

• The Wild West

Definitely present.

I'm not seeing a problem here except for a few assumptions and one trope that may need to be removed pending further information.

I can pick another upcoming film/game/series at random, too, if you'd like.

Would it solve the problem to simply put a note prominently on the pages that these are the tropes that "appear to be present in the work, based on the trailers, ads and other pre-release materials" or something like that? Then after it's actually released the trope list can be culled and corrected.

Tropes that indisputably appear in the Paratext are still fair game for the main page whether the work is released or not, right? I don't see a need for a disclaimer or anything, just mention in the example that the trope appears in a trailer or whatever.

Yes, I think a "unreleased work" tag would be neat.

There should be an index for unreleased works if there isn't already, but I think a disclaimer tag at the top is overkill.

Anyway, what would we do with pages like Portal that contain tropes for an unreleased sequel that hasn't been split to its own page?

edited 11th Feb '11 12:41:07 PM by troacctid

Separate out the pre-release tropes. Simple. Until the work is out, we cannot say for certain that a trope is used. We can say for certain that it shows up in the trailer or not, or in the advertising, or in the concept art.

I believe Wikipedia has a banner they use for pages about upcoming/unreleased events/things which says the information is subject to change. We could use something similar.