- This has some holes in it - namely, at some point, someone would have noticed that she was 1/4 or 3/4 elf. Not to mention, the two look nothing alike, unlike every other family relation in the game. However, it's not unreasonable that Yuan killed Sheena's biological parents, or otherwise manipulated the situation to create a summoner, such as feeding Sheena Aeonis.
- Note that Mithos' Yggdrasil form very much resembles a male version of Martel with Mithos' coloring (blond hair and blue eyes); while the age-up is intentional to portray the leader of Cruxis, it's likely that the resemblance is just genetics at work. If so, that would simply mean that magic/mana is connected to genetics, and that in breeding appropriate Chosen Cruxis has simply reproduced the DNA sequence found in the Yggdrasil siblings.
- Wut? The only married Summon Spirit who's married is Ratatosk. And he's literally married. To his fangirl.
- Ah, but do you know this for sure? Does it actually say anywhere in game that no summon spirit is married? And remember, sharing a title may be their equivalent of marriage, which is why Ratatosk didn't get married until he became human(-ish).
- We know that four thousand years later, Yggdrasil is fully grown.
- What must have happened- at some point in the interim, when Yggdrasil was big enough, he trained Martel in how to do the whole "summon spirit of the Tree" gig, transfering control of the mana distribution system and Ginunggagap to her, then going off somewhere- perhaps dispersing into mana, in effect dying. This is why he is nowhere to be seen in Phantasia.
- Also note, the Phantasia crew sneaks in through a crack in the seal on the Daemonium- if Ratatosk was still in charge of the seal, you know he'd step in to stop the morons from making a pact with demons that would only try to manipulate them (although any manipulations they tried failed in the end, Ratatosk would have no way of knowing that when they went in).
- Unless he made a pact with Dhaos. Which makes sense considering Dhaos has a monster army and was wanting to stop mana cannons.
- Nah, then he'd have more reason to show up when Cless and co. went through a crack in his barrier.
- Ratatosk seals Niflheim, no where is it said that the Daemonium and Niflheim are the same.
- Two known extradimensional demonic incursions, with plenty of time inbetween for names involved to change. Occam's Razor states that the simplest explanation is the best, and the simplest explanation here is that there's only one invading hellscape which changed its name at some point.
- Nah, then he'd have more reason to show up when Cless and co. went through a crack in his barrier.
- Alternately he might have been forced into that hibernation state that the spirits seem to do so often in Tales games, and the reason his barrier is failing is because of this and the general decrease in mana during the time periods Phantasia takes place in. Or maybe his seal is only for a large dimensional gap in that particular spot, the gaps in Phantasia are not in the same location.
- Head of a major company? Check. Demonstrated mastery of incredible martial arts? Check. Moral compunction against taking lives? Check. Dark and Troubled Past? Check. Fights evil? Check. He wouldn't use a bat as a symbol, he'd have his own superhero title, like... "The Ominous Shackle".
- Head of a major company? Check. Repenting criminal? Check. Moral compunction against taking lives? Check. Dark and Troubled Past? Check. Fights evil? Check.
- If people recognized him, wouldn't it be better to say "You know I helped save the world years ago? Trust me, a mana cannon is a stupid idea"? Granted, Symphonia had many an idiot plot, but Yuan was not involved in them.
- Ditto. Nobody knows better than Yuan that "playing at being a Demon Lord" is a good way to make people waste MORE mana, not less.
- Not even elves can live for 8000 years, so if he said who he really was, people would likely either think he was insane and not believe him, or think he was some kind of ghost/monster/hallucination/etc.
- Can't really be helped considering there was a catastrophe that occured in the world between the times of Symphonia and Phantasia. Remember how in Phantasia's time there is this big underwater magitek-powered city named Thor? It became like that because a huge comet that impacted the world. It's not far removed to consider that this catastrophe not only erased all prior history, but also reset the technology level of the world. Remember, not only was Thor a fully magitek-city, it also had a working Time Machine. They had practically perfected magitechnology in the 2000 years or so after Lloyd's time.
- History and technology may have been damaged, but not destroyed. Enough records were left behind to identify and locate summon spirits (except poor Celsius), rebuild the mana cannon (for like the third time), build new rheards/techbirds..
- Mithos is frozen in his child form, but assuming his Yggdrasil form is just an aged-up version of his true form (which seems to be the case), if he hadn't stopped aging he'd have grown up to be a tall fair-skinned blond with blue eyes. The physical description matches that of Dhaos◊ give-or-take a few years, as Dhaos in ToP looks older than Yggdrasil/Mithos, who looks to have chosen an age about that of Martel's when she died. (No surprise, the guy's obsessed.)
- Going further on appearance, Dhaos' Plume form◊ bears a distinct resemblance to both Yggdrasil◊ (white full-body suit, pastel wings of light, long blond hair) and Mithos' Avenger mode◊ (wings appear a closer match to Dhaos' in color and way they 'connect' to the body) - All three forms are also capable of flight with the wings.
- Both Mithos and Dhaos use a wide variety of powerful physical and magical multi-element attacks, with their signature moves involving light/lasers; additionally, the PS2 ToS has Yggdrasil use the Yggdrasil Laser, a clear reference to the Dhaos Laser used by the character of the same name. As well, Mitho's final form◊ bears at least a passing resemblance to Dhaos'◊ Phaser form◊, allowing for stylistic differences and the fact they're two different people (despite one being the reincarnation of the other, they're not clones).
- Dhaos is referred to as a feared "Ancient King," which sounds like a reasonable way people might refer to Mithos/Yggdrasil once his true identity or at least his deeds ("Stop fighting because this guy we know caused it mostly!") became known, and given the span of time assumed to pass between Symphonia and Phantasia. Mithos-as-Yggdrasil certainly caused havoc aplenty, and the loss of the Mithos Hero figure - central to the mythology - seems to have contributed to the downfall of the Church of Martel, which by the time of Dawn of a New World just two years later is teetering on the edge of obsolescence after having been the primary religion for roughly 4,000 years. That said, the existence of the Church in Phantasia is likely a renewed religion, more of a veneration of Martel-the-spirit-who-protects-the-Great Tree.
- Dhaos has a very strong attachment to Martel and the Yggdrasil tree, even outside of simply needing it to save his homeland; Martel mentions in ToP that a 'man with golden hair watched over her as she slept,' and the wording indicates that it was more personal than simply posting a guard or keeping watch to make sure no-one ruins your investment. Mithos, of course, had a very strong attachment to Martel, and Martel's words as the Mana of the tree in ToS - "You must provide the tree with love and adoration. As long as those conditions are met, I shall always protect the sibling." - are reflective of the way Martel cared for her younger brother, unintentionally setting off the entire chain of events. By the time of Phantasia the Tree has grown up and Martel is still there, but perhaps her subsuming into the spirits of multiple spirits has dimmed her memory. (Clearly she can't have forgotten everything, still identifying as Martel in Phantasia, though possibly some recollection could have returned over the years.)
- During the Symphonia endgame, Mithos says: "... If there is no place where I can live, and if I’ve been denied my Age of Lifeless Beings, then the only thing left for me is to build a new world on Derris-Kharlan. A world just for my sister and me!" We've established that Derris-Karhlan is essentially a really big comet or meteor that brought both the elves and the Tree, and is still spaceworthy by the end of Symphonia; it's not that unthinkable that the remaining half-elves, once gathered on Derris-Karhlan, would leave the old planet behind, so that by the time Dhaos appears it may as well have been an entirely different planet.
- Mithos also said: "... I wanted my own world, so I don’t regret my choice." Assuming reincarnation as one of the half-elves on the then-spaceborne Derris-Kharlan, and taking into account the references to Dhaos being some kind of royalty (Ancient/Demon King and the info for the Dhaos costume in Narikiri), it may well be that Mithos was indeed reborn to lead/rule over the 'planet' of Derris-Kharlan and its population.
- Mithos' final words: "I would make the same choice all over again. I will continue to choose this path!" Again, reincarnation: While his physical body and presence was obviously destroyed when they shattered his Cruxis Crystal, the law of drama states that a sufficiently important/strong-willed person can overcome such petty things as dissolution; perhaps it merely freed his soul to move along in the cycle of life and death? If he indeed was reincarnated, wouldn't he again try to reunite with Martel, even if under different circumstances and possibly with muddled memories? Yes, yes he would.
- Dhaos restrains himself from fighting the heroes when given a chance due to possible damage to the Tree, which - while practical - is also somewhat odd given that apparently his homeland really needs that Tree, yet he's dawdling for some reason. When Dhaos does fight the heroes in the final battle, he's defeated by the Eternal Sword (oh, irony!) and achieves his angelic form 'with the blessing of Derris-Karhlan's gods'; that form just happens to be near-identical to those of the angels formed by the Cruxis Crystals.
- Following his death and defeat, the cycle is seemingly completed once more: A quest revolving around the destruction of magiteck to funnel mana back into the Tree, a quest for the Great Seed that ultimately fails. But this time, Dhaos succeeds: Martel creates a new Seed and incorporates her spirit and Dhaos' body into the result, sending it spaceward and presumably towards Derris-Karhlan. This time, Mithos/Yggdrasil/Dhaos won't need to repeat the cycle of incarnation, since he's gotten everything he wanted (before he snapped), if not exactly how it was expected to happen. The incarnation would also explain how anyone could live that long, death aside— 8,000+ years must be insane even for a full elf, but it's a non-factor here because it's not as if Mithos lived all the way through those 8,000+ years straight.
- Reincarnation is a possibility thanks to the events of Tales of Phantasia: Narikiri Dungeon, which stars a pair of children from Derris-Karhlan who died during the events that sapped their planet's supply of mana, then were reincarnated with the aid of Norn (a powerful spirit from their world). They're even re-reincarnated at the very end of the game, to live happy lives without the internal conflict they suffered before; it's certainly plausible that someone like Mithos, who died at the height of his power and before the fledgling spirit, might have been reincarnated in a similar way. Not as spectacularly perhaps (no pillar of light, ect, possibly because Martel was yet fairly weak), but enough to send him into another life. The similarities between the reborn include being exceptionally powerful, having a great destiny, having been people of significance/importance (if not necessarily rank) and destruction in their past life, and failing to understand the emotions of humans/mortals. It also explains why Dhaos was neutral re: Aselia until he 'heard his inner voice tell him to destroy the users of magitechnology'; coming into contact with the site of his past death and the focal point of his past life shook loose some memories of his life as Mithos (or at least feelings if not memories) that spurred such a vehement reaction.
- The person speaking was Colette, attempting to convince Mithos to put an end to his plans by using the persona of Mithos' beloved sister. Martel's soul had either escaped or was too dormant to revive, having lost most of its personality and thus allowing Colette to puppet the body even after the transfer was supposedly completed. This is why, after 'Martel' becomes the Tree, it denies being Martel: Martel-the-woman had ceased existing long ago, probably driven catatonic after four thousand years of being unable to speak or move.
- Z skit has her talking to Raine about Martel's memories that she picked up during the merge. It's theoretically possible that Martel's consciousness lingered, allowing Colette to learn Martel's residual thoughts and figure out that she probably wouldn't have approved of Mithos' actions/taken the chance to try and stop the whole mess before it gets worse. That seems unnecessarily complicated, though.
- The reason Sheena can summon spirits has something to do with having a little bit of elvish blood in her. In Sheena's Flanoir scene, she implies that many people are at least some small part elf, as elvish blood is required to do any magic at all. People with more of it can do better magic, though. It seems to be the case that Regal does have some elvish blood.
- Also, even if Regal knocked up the preteen Alicia and she became pregnant, chances are he would notice the growing bulge of pregancy. Regal would definitely want to know what happened to the child. And as this is Regal, the man who was more interested in his love than company image and is still angsting about it years later, it seems likely that he would have said something when the child disappeared and still angst about it years later to the group.
- Apparently, healing doesn't count - several characters in Phantasia can use healing techniques even though they live at a point in time where magic is a lost art.
- So Genis is gay for Presea? Sweet.
- So Raine, Genis' sister (who I'd assume would know their own sibling's/foster child's sex), is in on this?
- One thing is a bit wrong there. Genis goes in the hot spring with the guys. So either he's not a she or she's just really good at hiding her lack of male features. This would be more of a problem in DOTNW where Genis is 14 and should be displaying definite female features (namely the sudden appearance of boobs, and the lack of any facial hair). Even if neither of these tip the others off the fact that he'll eventually start looking like a woman may strike everyone as a bit odd (if your childhood friend who you were pretty sure was male suddenly started looking like a woman I'm sure you would probably end up asking a few important questions).
- There's also the possibility that he's transgender and that this setting is extremely accepting of this sort of thing (there might even be magical hormone replacement/SRS written in Boltzman's book that Raine could use to "heal" Genis of his incorrect sex hormones/genitalia.)
All this gets deconstructed through the course of the game. The great person one looked up to turns out not to be as nice as one thought. The dream girl / boy relationship turns out to be based on idealized fabrication. The fantasy self ends up consuming the real self and impairing one's social relations. Thus, eventually Emil and Marta come to see each other and themselves for who they really are rather than what they want to be. Emil sealing away Ratatosk is a sign he is ready to stop living in dreams and face reality, and turns out to be stronger for it. The confrontation with Richter demonstrates independence and a willingness to go one's own way after being taught enough about life. Finally, the bad ending represents one's fantasies spinning out of control leading to the destruction of those one loves and the self, while the good ending demonstrates that one is ready to live a fulfilling life integrated into society. This is the meaning of "Courage is the magic that turns dreams into reality."
- Why are the fantasy aspects "Window Dressing"? Why can't a fantasy story also be a coming-of-age story?
- Alternately, they could explore the end of the "Three Great Civilizations" mentioned in Tales of Phantasia. Why were the civilizations at war? How did they maintain their high level of technology without harming the Yggdrassil? Who were the mysterious men who appeared with the pieces of the Eternal Sword? Of course, either of these games would have the disadvantage of inevitably ending with a big downer...
- Tales of Symphonia and MGS1 are both about a brown haired hero going on a mission to save the world, so far so normal, right? Hehe WRONG!
- Tales of Symphonia Dawn of the New World is about a blonde haired hero with identity problems confused about his past, and it is unclear whether the hero from the first game is good or evil until the tail end of the game. Also he has a love interest who will stop him in the middle of a battle to talk about their relationship.
- This also coincides with the above entry about the next game taking place in the past, explaining the back story of the villains from the original game.
- It does break down somewhat in that MGS was a sequel to Metal Gear and Metal Gear II, explaining what happened after- whereas Tales of Symphonia is a prequel to Tales of Phantasia, explaining How We Got Here. It'd be a better parallel if Symphonia was the classic game, and Phantasia was the newer reboot/sequel series- but it isn't.
- It is... in America!
- Just because Zelos looks nothing like Collet/Martel, doesn't mean his mana signature can't fit. Or, a more insane fangirl reason, Ew! Why would Mithos be happy with his sister being in a guy's body, turning her into a Gender Bender?
- A fully developed Cruxis Crystal allowed Yggdrasil to manipulate to manipulate his age and appearance, it's not too farfetched that Martel would have been able to to change the sex of her vessel. Anyways things such as sex and appearance no longer matter in an Age of Lifeless beings. However, Collette did seem to be a better fit. Mithos had no reason to believe that Kratos would die anytime soon. Having two worlds work towards a single goal is better than just one.
- One problem with this- Tales of Phantasia. 4000 years later, there's a "planet", named Derris-Kharlan, inhabited by Angels, which knows where the planet inhabited by humans is and about the Tree, which altogether implies that the comet continues to exist and be inhabited.
- That and in DOTNW you can see a scene where Yuan is talking to Kratos one last time before he is too far away from Earth to send anymore transmissions.
- Interesting theory, no doubt. Not much is known, after all, on the effects that children of test subjects endure. Which makes me ponder those effects and if some children are born in the Human Ranches... anyway, I'm digressing. I can't remember where exactly it was ingame, but angels are really more mutant half-elves or humans—think Jackalope—than a whole different species. But that still means it's possible it had some effect on him. After all, he tapped into some form of 'angel power' without having to deal with the burden of mutation that others went through, since it's heavily hinted he has a Cruxis Crystal instead of your regular ol' Exsphere. So, uh, yeah, I'm not coherent, but you've got this Troper plunnied.
- Actually, most angels have different wings than others. Your lower angels, such as those on Welgaia and Remiel, have the feathered ones. Colette, Kratos, Yuan and Mithos have seem to be the typical mana wings set for the game, but then you see Zelos' when/if you fight him and they're totally different. But that's kinda explained by Yggdrasil; angels can change their appearence. I'm guessing wings count there, too. Lloyd's were possibly a symbol of his will to reach the Great Seed and stuff. Still, that's my conjecture. Otherwise, I agree with you about Lloyd being the Messiah type. Many characters change and grow by what he does and says.
- Actually, cheribum aren't "cute", or "innocent" at all. They're the second highest order of angels, described as having four faces, those of a lion, an ox, an eagle, and a man, and are said to have many, many eyes. You're thinking putti, which are an invention of the Renaissance and responsible for the western confusion of cherubim and putti.
- Unless someone else did the same thing to the world that he dreamed of doing, he did a lot of dreaming.
- Probably going out on a limb here by saying all blondes are related or something. But seriously, Colette is said to have many relatives around the world, but we never meet them. And being of the Mana Lineage, I don't think it's surprising that she would marry to a someone of practically noble status.
- So Dorr is Colette's uncle?
There are two main ending results to Symphonia- One where Zelos lives, and another when he dies. In Tales of the Abyss, one replica in Daath says, "...Ze...lo...s...Di...ed...", or "Zelos died", which implies that the canonical ending is the one where Zelos perishes. However, in the sequel, he's still alive and well (that is, unless he's a zombie). An obvious contradiction, correct? Wrong. When Origin aided Mithos in splitting the world in two 4,000 years prior and set up this new mana balancing system, they disrupted the very fabric of reality and time itself, causing numerous rifts in time and reality. It caused a split into two parallel universes that never touched, yet mirrored each other up to a certain point. This point is the point in which Zelos either lives or dies, as he is the key that will affect the future. In one universe, he lives on, and this ends up leading to Dawn of the New World and later Phantasia, where humanity had to start over from scratch after the Adaphagos destroyed almost everyone (More on that in Tales of Vesperia's WMG page). The time rifts also explain how Dhaos can so easily travel through time; he simply uses those rifts. Meanwhile, in the universe where Zelos dies, his status as a Child of the Full Moon in addition to his death holds back the Adaphagos and the world goes on to Tales of the Abyss's timeline. Note that this troper has never played Tales of the Abyss, and this was all though up whilst taking her evening shower.
- That... makes a surprising amount of sense.
- This doesn't explain is the fact that fonons have been around since "the beginning of existence", the presence of the Fonic Belt, the lack of many summon spirits, and their associated elements, as well as several other issues, including the presence of the Miasma, the world's name changes, and the lack of the Giant Tree in Alderant.
- Confirmed. But he's still easy as dirt to beat. And yes, he does "take" characters. Still easy.
- It's just weirdly right for some reason, as Emil and Cress share many similarities, the both have the same English VA, are blonde, and use one sword instead of 2. Must have really good genes.
- Don't Forget Genis and Presea- those two lead to Arche.
- With Suzu being a possible descendant of Zelos and Sheena, this seems all the more appropriate.
- Or, perhaps he had feelings similar to that of a therian, and secretly longed for wings to sprout out of his back his whole life. When he needed to fly, they manifested.
- Three problems. The first is that if Sheena were a half-elf, other half-elves such as Genis, Raine, Harley, Kate, and Mithos would have noticed and said something. The second is that the pure-blooded elves would have noticed and they wouldn't have let her into Heimdall. The third is that she wouldn't have been confused by Genis and Raine's ability to tell the difference in the mana levels of Sylvarant and Tethe'alla because she would've had the same ability.
- It's never explained in-game why half-elves can sense each other. However, another possibility exists. It's possible that, like Zelos, Sheena had elven blood artificially given to her at some point. Zelos outright tells her it's possible in Flanoir and it might explain why she's able to Summon. Half-elves never mention Zelos' having an unusual mana signature and he isn't banned from Heimdall. Sheena tells Lloyd that as a child she was sent to both Sybak and the Elemental Research Laboratory, the latter which focuses on Summon Spirits. It's possible that Sheena was experimented on in her childhood, much like what would have happened to Raine if she had remained in Sybak. Sheena might not remember it, since she was younger than seven at that time and she already had the Volt incident traumatising her, but Lloyd points out she was essentially Mizuho's bargaining chip. It also explains why the Elemental Research Academy are willing to do extra favours for Sheena and Sheena's special connection with Corrine, a man-made spirit.
- It's explained indirectly when Raine and Kate meet and in a skit in the Fooji Mountains. Elves, and by extension half-elves, have a sixth sense for sensing the flow of mana in everything. Humans and elves both have mana signatures that are very distinct from each other. When human and elven blood is mixed, it creates a third, equally distinct signature.
- Zelos lied about receiving elven blood transfusions. His ability to use magic is actually from ingesting aionis.
- It's still possible.
- Than why wasn't she barred from Heimdall? Why didn't any of the canon half-elves say anything? Why can't Sheena sense the flow of mana?
- It's possible that while Sheena's mostly human, she has very distant elven ancestry that has been diluted over time through her family generations. Considering how old elves and half elves can live, it seems likely that some humans may have slightly more of a "mixed" mana signature that differs from "pure" humans, but isn't distinctive enough to class them as half-elves who had a pure blooded elf as a parent, therefore making their mana signature much more potent and easily identifiable. Especially as half-elves are usually not allowed to leave their labs, so if two half-elves had children, their elven blood would likely become fainter with each generation.
- Sheena outright says this if she is chosen as Lloyd's soulmate in Flanoir. It means she is not a half-elf. There was a discussion about his on the Headscratchers page. If Sheena's elven blood is diluted enough, she would effectively be a human that can use magic. The elves probably wouldn't care about someone like that any more than they would pureblooded humans. It's quite a bit different from being a half-elf though.
- It's never explained in-game why half-elves can sense each other. However, another possibility exists. It's possible that, like Zelos, Sheena had elven blood artificially given to her at some point. Zelos outright tells her it's possible in Flanoir and it might explain why she's able to Summon. Half-elves never mention Zelos' having an unusual mana signature and he isn't banned from Heimdall. Sheena tells Lloyd that as a child she was sent to both Sybak and the Elemental Research Laboratory, the latter which focuses on Summon Spirits. It's possible that Sheena was experimented on in her childhood, much like what would have happened to Raine if she had remained in Sybak. Sheena might not remember it, since she was younger than seven at that time and she already had the Volt incident traumatising her, but Lloyd points out she was essentially Mizuho's bargaining chip. It also explains why the Elemental Research Academy are willing to do extra favours for Sheena and Sheena's special connection with Corrine, a man-made spirit.
- Excessive need for and expectation of admiration:
- Check! He's groomed himself to be a ladies man, guaranteeing a constant stream of admiration and attention.
- Disregard for other peoples' feelings:
- More or less check! He cares only about being on the winning team, and has a harder time than the rest of Team Tethe'alla tolerating Raine and Genis.
- Inability to handle criticism:
- Check! Though it often happens as a joke, whenever Zelos is made fun of, he seems genuinely hurt and bothered by it even if it was meant in good fun. During the scene where he pulls Sheena away from the otherworldly gate, he seems quite offended at her disagreeing with his decison.
- Sense of entitlement:
- Check! Do I really have to explain this one?
- Grandiose behavior:
- Check! Again, do I have to explain it?
- Secretly self-loathing and/or depressed:
- Check again! Even before things take a turn for traitor, Zelos drops many, many hints of not thinking highly of himself.
- Either emotional overbearing or emotional neglect by his parents:
- Check! His mother did say she wished he'd never been born, and both of his parents died when he was young.
- He may have actually tried that method in the past, and in the OVA, he states that he tried other methods before his plan for the "Age of Lifeless Beings." However, it's possible this didn't sit well with the public and made the church unpopular until they decided to abandon equality from their precepts. Any present attempt to campaign for equality could risk blowing the church's cover.
- Related to the above, Mithos is so jaded with voluntary racial harmony that he's willing to allow or even secretly endorse the persecution of half-elves so that he'll have more potential and willing recruits. The Pope forcing the half-elves to work in labs could also give Mithos access to skilled scientists.
- On the other hand, Zelos, Cruxis's mole, may be undermining the Pope on their orders, albeit as a low-priority job.