Discussion YMMV / Dragonball

Hi, so the reason I kept editing your entry is because "Designated Hero" is a trope about characters being deemed heroic and yet not seeming very heroic. While I am a fan of the series, I agree that their actions can come off as unheroic and selfish, and sometimes, they are. However, my issue with your first entry was very inaccurate, blaming Goku for things that didn't happen, claiming that Vegeta, the man who endangered his "beloved" Bulma and Trunks without a second thought for the sake of a good fight, somehow cared more about his family when Goku has not only died to save Gohan twice, has actively been shown to support his son and can be very loving with his wife, clearly upset and shocked when they are in danger. You also claimed that Vegeta, for killing Nappa who had committed much more on screen villainy at the time, was supposed to feel bad despite him having no empathy towards anyone, ignoring that in the one other time we see them interact in GT, he allows him to leave and Nappa attacks him instead. You also claimed that Goku during his fight with Beerus and Buu caused a lot of inferred holocausts, but there's no evidence for this, Buu killed everyone in the city they fought above, and Beerus is never shown to be fighting in populated areas. You also claimed 17 and 18 in the future was just as bad as they are in the present, which is again, incorrect. I'm not saying you don't have a point, which is why I'm simply trying to edit it instead of removing it, but you made many assumptions and blamed specifically Goku for actions that simply didn't happen.

Like... here's the thing. Vegeta is an ego-tripping jerkass Retired Monster obsessed with one-upping Kakarot. Goku is an idiotic Blood Knight who incidentally saves the world while trying to have a good fight and ideally save the people he directly cares about. You're not wrong about how they're no saints.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut the work (other than the dub which turned Goku into "ally to good! Nightmare to you!" never presents them as flawless protectors of justice.

Moreover, Designated Hero isn't "flawed hero" it's "someone is supposedly a hero even though they don't do anything heroic." Even if they're not the best at it, they're still saving the planet from blatant villains. Like, despite not having heroes who are made of pure heroism, DBZ is still one of the most blatant examples of Black-and-White Morality in anime. If you're saying Goku is a Designated Hero, then you're saying that several complete monsters are Designated Villains.

It largely boils down to the fact that Goku is a somewhat unbuilt example of Stock Shōnen Hero; we expect the shonen hero to be driven by a sense of justice and unfailingly do the right thing but Goku isn't. He does, however, still consistently fight villains and protect his friends.

Actually, thinking about Larkman's example, I think Designated Hero is being used in the wrong context here. Looking back at the trope page, the trope specifically says that it's about "heroes" that would do shitty things and yet be treated by the narrative like they did it great. On the flip side, you'd have to have a Designated Villain which Dragonball firmly does not have.

And no, I don't mean giving the enemy a chance to power up, because he's still ultimately fighting people who are much worse than him, I mean it'd have to be treating Vegeta's actions during the Saiyan and Namek saga as good, when in reality he's treated as horrible person, but if he were a Designated Hero, it'd be supporting him after he slaughtered Namekians and Nappa, which was treated are horrendous and he almost dies twice for it. Even when he betrays everyone for a good fight, he's called out on it.

Goku also makes mistakes, giving villains the chance to power up, healing Cell, not being as pragmatic as he could be, and can come off as insensitive. However, there are flaws which are frequently commented on, Goku is repeatedly called out by his friends and the narrative for messing up and his lack of thinking about the consequences.

You're thinking about heroes that are flawed, which would make for a case of Nominal Hero, which is already on Vegeta's and Goku's pages. 17 and 18, who display selfish traits but ultimately do still do good things such as fighting against villains and wishing back everyone that was erased. They could also be Nominal Heroes, which I'll add right now.

Speaking of the rest of the gang, you'd have a good case for Roshi, who is a very gross pervert that frequently sexually harassers several women, which the narrative flip flops on whether he should get punished or if he gets off scot free because of "comedy". Beerus is more of less described as morally grey, so his actions are described as natural, rather than malicious, and even then he's berated repeatedly.

You describe the other's flaws, but just having a flaw doesn't automatically make a character designated. It'd be like saying Batman is a Designated Hero because despite all the good he does, he's got severe paranoia that alienates and harms his relationships, and his backup plans can ultimately be used to harm his allies, even though he's very much a hero.

Everything got moved into Dragon Ball Z

Why was anything moved? "Dragon Ball Z" isn't a separate series, it's just an arbitrary division TOEI animation imposed when adapting the manga.

Because of this. The main article was in need of splitting anyway.

Goku: #2. No need to mention a fanwork.

Vegeta: #1. The other info should just go under Alternate Character Interpretation.

Krillin/Yamcha: 2. No need for them to share a bullet point.

Chi-Chi: 1. 2 is phrased as a question, which again sounds like ACI, not BB.

Buu and the Saiyans: They ARE both examples, so they should go in there. Though I'd rewrite the Saiyan entry:

• The Saiyan race as a whole. Their role as the Spotlight-Stealing Squad has led to detractors saying that they're dull and draw attention from the original cast, and supporters who think they're legitimately the most interesting characters on the show.

Hmm...

Well, it'd be easy to just say "number 2" for all of them, since I wrote it, but I'll be fair. Besides, I do admit some of them probably aren't the best. We don't need to get this page locked, so if people really have a problem with it then we can tone it down.

(Incidentally, a lot of the "bashing" I put up before was more arguments I'd heard from other people, particularly in regards to Krillin and Yamcha - I'm a fan of both characters myself, so I can support being nice in their sections.)

Anyway, as for my opinions...

Goku: There was a discussion in Ask The Tropers recently where it was decided that referencing the Abridged Series on the works page like that shouldn't happen, which is the entire reason I edited that bit out in the first place. So yeah, number 2.

Vegeta: Here's my main protest. Basically, people are allowed to say that they hate the character, but are forbidden from explaining why because that would be "character bashing". As a result everyone who dislikes the character comes across as a hateful psychopath, especially with that "should never have been forgiven" line which makes it sound like the worst they can say is he's selfish yet they still want him dead.

So, it clearly can't be number 2, and I hate number 1, so how about I try to Take a Third Option?

• Vegeta after his Heel–Face Turn, thanks primarily to Alternate Character Interpretation. He's either a Loveable Rogue who's Not Evil, Just Misunderstood, or he's a Jerkass who decided to play nicer but never really stopped being selfish and hostile.

Krillin and Yamcha: I agree with Larkmarn here. Even though a similar argument is made against both of them I don't see any reason why they need to share a bullet point. We could possibly be nicer in his entry, though.

Chi-Chi: I really hate number 1. It's confusingly worded and doesn't make it clear what the two sides are. (So, both sides say she's overprotective?) It could be reworded some more, though.

• Chi-Chi. She's either a good mother who, at worst, is overprotective and with a bit of a Hair-Trigger Temper, or she's a hostile and controlling Education Mama.

Buu and the Saiyans: Agreed with Larkmarn, and I like his rewrite for the Saiyans.

I think we should avoid words like "bitch" and "loser," because I think it's bashing. Let's find synonyms to replace them, shall we?? And although I agree with L Arkmarn, Chi-Chi dos give up on being an annoying control freak later in the series.

My rewrite of Chi-Chi's entry doesn't use the word bitch at all. Maybe we could note in her entry that she does get better? Maybe, like...

• Chi-Chi. She's either a good mother who, at worst, is overprotective and with a bit of a Hair-Trigger Temper, or she's a hostile and controlling Education Mama (though even her detractors will admit she does get better).

As for "loser"... okay, I can see getting rid of "bitch" but "loser"? "Loser" is not a swear word. "Loser" is not even all that harsh.

^ Imagine if someone walked up to you and called you a loser. I had to edit this page AGAIN because of bashing. It's getting annoying. I had to reedit the examples again.

I think he'd qualify.

He's an Idiot Hero and he's Oblivious to Love, but those traits are played up to make him more endearing. Entire arcs (specifically, the Saiyan Arc) were based around "well, let's try to survive until Goku arrives!" He's an inhumanly strong fighter, beloved by all, his "flaws" just seem to highlight how awesome he is.

Don't get me wrong, he's such an archetypal character that I don't dislike him for it, and he wouldn't (normally) qualify for God-Mode Sue since he does have to work for his wins. Plus in Dragon Ball, despite being a kid, he did single-handedly take down a freaking army and several fighters considered to be the top of the world.

Doesn't help that retcons led to him potentially being the son of THE Legendary Super Saiyan.

Pretty much everything Larkmarn said. The main character is expected to be the center of attention, but not to this level. I mean, even after he dies and chooses to stay dead to let others have a chance, he STILL ends up coming back and doing everything. He isn't quite a Black Hole Sue but damn does he come close sometimes. Also, as LM mentioned all of his flaws are either the kind of "technically bad, but forgivable and even kind of endearing" flaws that all Sues get (like being The Ditz) or else only serve to make him MORE awesome (yeah, he let Freeza power up and that was dumb, but he still won).

I don't hate Goku, I think he's a cool character, but he's pretty much a perfect example of a Marty Stu and there were definitely times in the series (like the mentioned Fortuneteller Baba arc, as well as the first part of the Saiyan saga and the fight against the Ginyu Force) that were really painful for me to watch because of all the Sue-ness going on.

Maybe we could reword the entry to be nicer, but I think he definitely qualifies.

Removed comment...wrong discussion

I feel that the entry in question exaggerates virtually everything about that scene to make Goku seem more like a Marty Stu than he is. During the scene in question (end of chapter 102), the mummy only starts to get nervous when he sees that Goku doesn't have any openings to exploit in his stance, and Goku had just recently went through Training from Hell to defeat Tao Pai Pai and the Red Ribbon Army - training that the other characters hadn't gotten. As for the Devilman's beam not affecting him? Wouldn't be the first time Goku's been said to have a pure heart.

As for Goku's flaws, they have come back to bite him. His lack of common sense really screwed him over in the Android saga (refusing to act against Gero despite having three years of advance notice, assuming that Gohan is just like him when that's not the case), and his (albeit usually justified) habit of leaving between arcs doesn't help him during the Buu saga, when Goten and Trunks won't listen to him at first. The series doesn't dwell on them for long because that's not the kind of series that Dragon Ball is, but negative effects are present.

I agree with everything Megadoomer says.

It might be a bit exaggerated, but you can't realistically argue that Goku has no Marty Stu traits. If you do, well, you're wrong.

In either case, he has enough that he qualifies for the trope. If you disagree then fine, that's why it's a Your Mileage May Vary trope - you don't have to agree with it.

Having a few Marty Stu traits (in this case, being one of the strongest characters in the setting) does not make a character a Marty Stu. If that was the case, then virtually every single main character from a franchise could theoretically be slotted into a Marty Stu or Mary Sue trope. Going by the Marty Stu page, there's supposed to be a lot of overlap between that trope and the Common Mary Sue Traits (minus the gender-related traits, of course), and looking through the latter page, I'm not seeing nearly enough to justify calling Goku that.

Again, it's Your Mileage May Vary, and I can guarantee you that this mileage varies. You might not want to believe it but go ask 100 Dragonball fans if Goku is a Marty Stu and I can guarantee you most of them will probably say "yeah."

We could rewrite it to say something like "at least for some people" if you really want, but you need to understand how YMMV works. YMMV items can be challenged on a factual basis, not an opinion basis - that's why they're YMMV. If I said Goku was a Marty Stu on the grounds of something like "he's only a human but is on par with the saiyans" then that you could take down because everyone knows he's not a human. But if your only argument is "well, in my opinion you're wrong" then that means it goes up, no matter how much you hate it.

Let me put it like this. You say the fact that Goku always does everything doesn't count, because he's the main character and so of course he's the center of attention.

The thing is, it's not just that he does everything, it's how as well. It's how effortlessly he does "impossible" things, and how the scenes where he does stuff are almost always accompanied by scenes of the other characters trying and failing miserably, or else standing around gasping in awe at how perfect Goku is, or how impossible what he does is. It's about the fact that the show will switch point-of-view in the middle of a fight just so random characters can praise Goku's majesty. It's about the fact that Gohan is stated by Word of God to be the strongest character in the series, yet he still needs Goku to come in and do absolutely everything for him for no really well explained reason.

All of that is why Goku is a Marty Stu, not simply the fact that he does a lot.

A lot of the scenes that you described (where other characters are incapable of doing damage to an opponent that Goku beats handily) are pretty much right after Goku's gone through some serious training (Fortuneteller Baba - training with Korin; Nappa - training with King Kai; Ginyu Force - training at 100x Earth's gravity), using methods that other characters haven't gotten the chance to access yet, or weren't crazy enough to try and find. All of these fall under the trope Look What I Can Do Now!, and shortly after all three of these events, Goku runs into an opponent who equals him or is outright stronger than him regardless of that training (Tien, Vegeta, and Freeza, respectively).

As far as Gohan's concerned, he's the strongest character in the setting, but unless he's aware of a threat in advance, (ex. having a year's warning for the Saiyans, or three years' worth of warning for the Androids) he doesn't train nearly as often as Goku does. That's not a negative on Gohan's part (it's certainly left him more well-adjusted than his dad), but in regards to the Buu saga, it means that he's out of practice compared to people like Goku or Vegeta, who train all the time and push themselves to ridiculous extents. (and besides, the Cell saga made Gohan the main character)

Besides, in regards to the original entry, you seem to be basing your classification of Goku as a Marty Stu exclusively on his strength (while horribly exaggerating it at the same time - Devilman's attack kills people based on the evil in their heart, not just any single flaw, and the Mummy certainly doesn't begin trembling in terror before he starts fighting Goku), while ignoring the fact that Goku doesn't seem to fit many of the other qualifications. (Brooding based around his backstory? He doesn't give it a second thought. Being a charmer? Goku's completely oblivious to the concept. Cool weapons or modes of transportation that get a ridiculous amount of description? He flies around on a cloud and uses a staff, and that's only early in the series)

Again, if a character can be called a Marty Stu because they match a single trait (such as being or becoming one of the strongest characters in the setting), then most protagonists of any given series out there would be classified as one.

A character CAN be called a Marty Stu for matching a single trait as long as they're very heavily into that trait. Not every Mary Sue has to have a depressing backstory, or be an Author Avatar.

How about this. Since Marty Stu is at the end of the day an entirely subjective trope, why not put it to a vote? We'll ask how many people think he counts and how many think he doesn't.

He's an Accidental Chick Magnet. He had Chichi completely by accident, and there were the occasional Teenage Ship teases with Bulma. That's... 66.67% of the eligible female cast of DB.

Cool weapons or modes of transportation? Are you kidding? The Power Pole is cool. It's a staff that can reach to the moon. Sun Wukong references have the staff so often because it's such a neat weapon. Nimbus was the first means of flight in the entire series, and worked only for Goku.

He's fantastically powerful, managed to be the spotlight stealing character in a Spotlight-Stealing Squad, was doing amazing, seemingly impossible things as a child (he did a Kamehameha after seeing it ONCE when it took Roshi his whole life to master it), wound up being the son of basically the Saiyan messiah, is consistently the strongest fighter to the point that entire arcs are brought down to "I hope Goku gets here soon."

Remember, tropes are not bad. But Goku is an Ideal Hero enough to qualify as a Marty Stu.

Just to interject: you mean Clueless Chick-Magnet.

I also want to restate: I don't hate Goku as a character, but I do think he totally qualifies for this.

You say "tropes are not bad", but there is no definition of the term Marty Stu (or Mary Sue) that can be considered positive. That's the equivalent of saying "This scene was a Dethroning Moment Of Suck, and it's definitely the point where the series Jumped the Shark... but in a good way!" Every single description of that trope on its page is used for character bashing, so I'm not sure how it can be seen in any other way.

As for Goku being a Spotlight-Stealing Squad, I'm not sure how a character can steal something that they've always had. Goku has been the main character since the first chapter of the series - of course he's going to get a large amount of focus. Goku being an Instant Expert is by no means consistent (he figured out how to do a Kamehameha instantly, but it took him years to learn how to fly - even Krillin figured it out before he did), and the part about Bardock being the legendary Super Saiyan originates from three chapters that Akira Toriyama had nothing to do with which were written to advertise an expansion for a Japanese card game. So, in other words, it was effectively filler, and it certainly didn't have much to do with the original anime or manga.

No one said being a Mary Sue was good, just not bad. It is possible for it to be neutral.

Took it to Tropes Talk. Right here.

Honestly, I feel like most of the things proposed in the Base Breaker thread below belong in Alternate Character Interpretation.

I feel like there's a whole lot of overlap between those two tropes to be honest.

EDIT: Actually, something occurs to me... I'm going to ask on Ask The Tropers if we should even have Base Breaker listed at all, since it's a No Examples Please trope.

EDIT 2: Apparently the answer is yes.

Well, I don't see any complaints, so I'll put it up. If someone has a problem with it then we'll take it from there.

EDIT: I also added Chi-Chi, since people were saying that her Base Breaker entry belonged under Alternate Character Interpretation instead.

Oops, put this in the YMMV discussion by mistake