Discussion Characters / MobileSuitGundamSeedDestiny

Replacement pages with merged entries from all Cosmic Era works done in sandboxes. Check the topic for the links. Need feedbacks before replacing the current pages.

While I'm not a regular editor for these pages, I personally agree with this and you seem to have a done a great job from what I've seen.

Thanks. Any feedback is welcome.

ATT for this subject.

Alright, as I mentioned before, the parameters of the trope do not exclude Rau from being a Greater-Scope Villain, especially since other deceased characters in various different anime and other mediums are also examples. Take characters like Palpatine in Star Wars Legends or Marquis de Saint-Evremonde, who are both dead but they still drive the plots of their works through their past actions, impact and legacy. While in Palpatine’s case he does come back a few times, it still doesn’t leave him out of this trope because his presence is constantly felt throughout the works.

It also states that it CAN cross over with Predecessor Villain, especially considering that Durandal is in fact implied to be talking with his spirit at one point, who actively tries to continue his corruption of Durandal that he had before when he was alive. Now you can say that this is a hallucination and that'd be fine, but GSD is very vague on whether it is or isn't, same as with Shinn's final conversation with Stella in the final episode. Rey also seems to encounter Rau's spirit watching them in the final episode. These again are all depicted as ambiguous, so you are correct in the idea that he could be just a hallucination. However, we cannot rule out the possibility that he isn’t either.

But, even if we didn't assume those encounters were real, that doesn't mean Rau is an inactive force. Rau may be dead, but his actions and ideals are still very much an active force within the story, both because of Predecessor Villain status, but also because Kira, Rey and Durandal are all equally driven by the villain in some way. Kira is not a villain (even by the most extreme Alternate Character Interpretation he doesn't qualify as a villain), so in turn Predecessor Villain doesn't qualify with him, but we see how thoroughly Rau has ingrained himself onto Kira through his flashbacks and his actions. Kira does what he does in part because he himself is still actively affected by Rau's memory. Kira also enters into conflict with Durandal and Rey because of the relationship all three have with Rau. Durandal and Rey directly target Kira not just because he stands as individual they believe has no right to exist in the world they want to make, but because they are driven by the desire to Avenge The Villain, Rey in particular.

Now, you can say that this still doesn't qualify him, and I'm not saying you are incorrect. But I think you are too focused on Predecessor Villain and looking at that page, it makes it clear that that trope is only about the effects of the previous villain on their successors, rather than on other characters like Kira.

However, I will concede that you don't have to agree with me. Truth be told, one reason I had that trope added in there (and I had wished you would have started this discussion first before involving admins) was that as it stands, only Rey and Durandal are directly stated within his section to have been driven by Rau’s influence and actions, when in fact characters like Kira are also driven by the memories of Rau. Cases could also be made for Athrun and the terrorist group at the beginning who were preaching Patrick Zala's creed. Rau was Athrun’s mentor and while Patrick was the one they followed, it still ties back to Rau because Rau had been manipulating the man and as a result his followers. So his actions still drive them even if indirectly. There are plenty of characters within the story who are still affected by Rau's actions, but now that you have removed that trope, the effects on other characters besides Rey and Durandal are now also removed. My intention with adding that trope to begin with were to have people think more about Rau's influence on other characters like Kira, who was completely absent from Rau's section even in spite of the major impact he had on Kira. Sure, Durandal and Rey are the most influenced by Rau in the series, but that still doesn't mean others aren't. Because while he’s dead, Rau Le Crueset still serves as a major character within the story, but his trope section is pretty shallow in many ways because it only focuses on two other characters within it, when in fact it goes even beyond them.

That is what I really wish to impart and if you feel there is a better trope for it, I would like to hear it. There is indeed no need for an edit war, we are all civilized individuals here, I believe.

As I told you in PM, I'm well aware that there is a case where an overlap between GSV and PV can occur but it requires that the character still be active themselves in some form. Rau exists in Durandal's memory and despite your claim that there's an implication he might be a ghost, there's not enough to say he still exists. If you want a trope for a villain's ideals being carried on after their passing then look no further than Villainous Legacy. A GSV has to themselves remain an active force: meaning that they still have to exist enough to be able to do things, which Rau clearly can't.

Not quite sure why you're criticizing my decision to take this to Ask The Tropers either, which is the recommended procedure if an example is re-added after being removed. As for the edit war? I'm not saying you're going to start one, just indicating that we have to be talking about it here since it's become a point of issue that it's getting added and then taken out.

Rau is an active force in the story regardless of his deceased status, but you are only focusing on that, so you are not getting that.

And also, I'm criticizing you because you took it right to the admins before there was an actual problem. We were not engaged in any kind of big argument over this. You could have started it here before you decided to go to them. And even then, you are ignoring that while you may disagree, I've presented plenty of points that do qualify Rau for the trope, but you have only gone with one, that being him being deceased and so he can't be an active force because he's deceased. But this is ignoring that a deceased character can indeed be a GSV AND an active force, which Rau is not just through Rey and Durandal, but Kira, the Zala aligned terrorists and such. Predecessor Villain and Villainous Legacy do not encompass the full effect that Rau has on the story. And it is certainly ignoring his effects on other characters.

That's why I'm criticizing you. You are not presenting points other than "Well, he's dead" or "there's not enough evidence to say he's a ghost". Those are shallow counterarguments, especially when I've presented more evidence of how Rau's actions extend beyond just Durandal, Rey and being deceased.

I'd contest that's been the only argument that I've been presenting, or that I've been ignoring what you said, or that using the recommended procedure was the wrong decision on my part but you're now getting to the insult phase so I think I'm going to bow out here.

I'm not insulting you, but I am just pointing out that you aren't paying attention to my argument. And I'm only asking you to present a real argument, which you aren't.

But fine, I will go to the Ask The Troper myself.

Okay, first of all you are not "pointing out" that I'm not listening to your arguments because I am. The crux of it comes down to you feeling the fact that Le Crueset's ideals and the impact he left upon other characters being enough to be considered a Greater-Scope Villain, while I feel that him being dead and gone, regardless of the impact that he left, removes him from the trope. I've gone in good faith that you understand the underlying concepts and not made a dig at you about not doing so, while you have not done me the same courtesy.

The fact you constantly insist I'm not presenting a "real argument" is also an insult. When you do that you halt the debate to rip into me, as opposed to giving good faith that both of us have points to bring to the discussion and it just wrecks the process. All I'm asking you to do is just be courteous, even if you don't agree with me and constantly having to request that is getting extremely frustrating.

Greater-Scope Villain requires Rau still be capable of directly influencing the plot. Being deceased precludes that. Any influence he has is from what he set in motion before his death. Villainous Legacy is the trope you want.

What Ferot said. Greater-Scope Villain is utterly irrelevant.

Earlier you cited examples of other characters who die and have persisting influence also being used as GSV. In Palpatine's case I'm not sure since you also said he returns but the others sound like pretty simple misuse and should be taken out too. As we can see here having them really isn't sending the right message.

Sorry for not actually responding, I got hung up on real life stuff, making only some visits to the site and not really thinking about this discussion. I don't mean to drag out a dead topic, but I also feel that a couple of things need to be said before the conversation is truly over. You may feel different, but that's fine because of this point.

I'm perfectly within my rights as a user on this site to point out, quite reasonably, that your argument isn't all that good if only because it really does all boil down to the same point, whereas I made several. And that's a terrible discussion, not to mention makes you seem uninterested in the topic that *you* started. What I was simply asking was that you give other examples besides the same one. You may have taken it as an insult, but it wasn't. It was me clearly not feeling the arguments were good enough, not knowing what your intentions were in making that one argument over and over and asking you to give other reasons to support your conclusions. I didn't care for your argument, not because it differed, but because it felt like you weren't actually engaging me in a conversation. It felt more "you're wrong, I'm right and nothing will change my mind."

And if you took that as an insult, I'm sorry, but just because someone says something that sounds like an insult, it doesn't mean it is one. People have disagreement and as long as it is civil, people are allowed to criticize their opponents. Just because you don't like my criticism it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to express it. Me? I'm not particularly bothered by your criticism of me, because I think it's perfectly valid where you are coming from, even if also I personally think you took it personally.

As for the arguments concerning Palpatine, I did mention that, but it also doesn't negate that when he dies his machinations and Force Influence still holds sway. Regardless of whether or not Rau was really or ghost or not, this is a series where supernatural powers do in some fashion exist, and Rau had them when he was alive. Considering the possibility, even if it is never directly stated, that he could still be around in some fashion, is a perfectly reason to have him as GSV simply because the possibility is there within the setting of the Cosmic Era timeline. That's why I insisted on why "he's dead" by itself wasn't a good enough argument, because it's lacking a real punch to it. Saying "there's not enough evidence" to support the idea he's a ghost also isn't enough. Because even if it is ambiguous, it's still part of the setting that these things could be happening. The only ghost scene confirmed to not have really happened (that we know about because of the bad fan translations of Destiny), is Flay's ghost. Stella and Rau's ghosts are left ambiguous, so is it really not within the realm of possibility?

Look, I have no intention of readding that trope back now, not because I agree with its removal, but because me not responding in a decent time frame has pretty much made this discussion futile. And even if it wasn't, I can already see that perhaps we won't come to an understanding. And that's fine, because that's just how it is sometimes. I only really wanted to add those last points and after that, I don't plan to come back to it or raise the issue further. As far as I'm concerned, it's a dead issue and thus resolved even if it wasn't the best resolution. I just ask that you think about what I said concerning my criticism, because that was the only thing I really wanted to clear the air on and only because I feel that perhaps that should have remained in a PM.

I wish you all the best of luck regardless.

Just saw this now... anyways, jumping right to the end of your message I'll just say thanks and same to you, man!

I wouldn't disagree with you. Social Darwinism is going to include some racial elements in the real world, and in a world where there really are genetically superior people? Yeesh. Go ahead and add it back. I'm not stopping you.

Except that this doesn't apply to Durandal in anyway. While the Destiny Plan may seem racist, his motivation has nothing to do with racism. And I do believe he mentioned that he wanted everyone to be given the same chance, regardless of their race, their gender and whether they received genetic engineering in any nature. The worst you could say about this being in anyway racist is that Durandal didn't factor in that the Destiny Plan could be used that way, especially by people who DO believe that Coordinators should be the master race.

And again, nothing in the show aside from the Destiny Plan suggests that Durandal is a racist. In fact, as stated on the page itself, the reason Durandal is doing this is because he doesn't want people like Rau Le Creuset and to a lesser extent, people like Patrick Zala, Muruta Azrael and Djibril. He does it because he believes that humans are inherently evil like Rau did, the difference is that he's trying to solve the problem instead of make it worse until we all kill each other.

So yes, it is possible to see Durandal's plan as being unintentionally racist, but Durandal himself is clearly shown in series to not be motivated by racism.

But really, how could I describe Durandal better than that he is much more in line with the guy who is trying to put an end to racism, but what he ended up doing was just going to make it worse.

If you want to remove those references from Zeta or Turn A go ahead. They should go on the character sheet for Super Robot Wars, not Gundam. It would be like putting tropes related to Kira in Seed Destiny on the Seed page. Or putting tropes related to The Dark Knight on the page for the 1989 Batman. They are different interpretations of the same character.

Shinn is somewhere between Type II and III Antivillain. He's a Jerkass Woobie and Well-Intentioned Extremist. In practise, he's probably Type II: it's Rey who's the real Utopia Justifies the Means type; Shinn's just doing what Rey tells him to.

As for how he's both, it's because of the perspective switch halfway through the series. Shinn was an Antihero when he seemed to be on the side of the angels (as even then he was deeply, deeply screwed up). As the show progresses, we find out that ZAFT are the bad guys; as such, Shinn makes the shift to Antivillain.

He's an Anti-Villain protagonist. He works for a government that seeks to impose genetic determinism on the world, and continues to do so long after these plans are revealed. He's selfish and believes that the people on the other side are barely human, and ignores atrocities committed by his own troops. The "saving more people that Kira" thing is counterbalanced by his own rampant slaughter, and his saving Stella is pretty much mitigated by killing Auel. He's an Anti-Villain by definition: doing all the wrong things with the best of intentions, and is one of the thre main viewpoint characters (along with Athrun and Kira). Hence his being referred to as an Anti-Villain Protagonist.

Selfish alone does not a villain make. He never, ever claims that the people on the other side are barely human and his side commits no atrocities prior to the perspective flip. "Rampant slaughter"? They're enemies trying to kill him and everyone on board his ship. Killing enemy soldiers in a time of war is not a villainous act. I could understand calling it villainous if he'd gone after the lifeboats or attacked them when they were retreating, but he doesn't do that. Auel, again, is an enemy soldier attempting to kill him. Shinn may be a viewpoint character, but Kira is listed as a Hero Antagonist during the early part, because despite being a viewpoint character, he is not the protagonist at that time. I'm not saying Shinn doesn't become an Anti-Villain later, however the time when he is villain and the time when he is protagonist do not intersect, therefore he is not eligible to be a Villain Protagonist

He allows ZAFT's allies to execute surrendered prisoners. However, if you really want to remove the Villain Protagonist part, fine. It was put there due to disputes about who the protagonist was. It was easier to put that in. Also, depending on who you ask you'll get very different answers as to when Shinn stops being the main viewpoint character (he remains a viewpoint character throughout). Some think it was as early as episode 20 or so, others much later, when he is definitely one of the villains. Even then, he, Kira, and Athrun are the three main characters throughout, and all that really shifts is who gets the most screen time.

That post is pretty spot on, with possibly one exception:

"He allows ZAFT's allies to execute surrendered prisoners."

Actually looking at the episode, the ones to excecute the Earth Alliance members actually seem to be the villagers who the EA terrorized. I think that sounds more accurate. Also, the only person that we absolutely know was aware of said executions was Athrun. We don't see Shinn acknowledge or even notice that this is taking place.

How does her behaviour in the latter half mimic Flay's? She helps Athrun escape, and serves a Bridge Bunny on the Archangel. She never has a psychological breakdown, and I would argue, doesn't really Heel–Face Turn as she was never evil to begin with (even when compared to an Anti-Villain like Shinn). Flay, in contrast, has her sense of self-worth shattered, and spends the second half of Seed in a state of shock, only snapping out of it when Azrael tries to sink the Archangel. There's not much similarity there. Similarly, claiming Nena is an Expy of Meyrin, I can't buy. Claiming she's an Expy of Flay on the other hand, I'd buy.

"A few minor traits — such as age and name — may change, but there's no doubt that they are almost one and the same."

That's just not true for Meyrin and Flay, or Meyrin and Nena. Meyrin's the archetypal Nice Girl, wheras Flay and Nena are deeply flawed, massively screwed-up, and only begin to come out of it towards the end. Neither their personalities nor their actions are similar to her's. It would be easier to claim that Talia Gladys is an Expy of Natarle Badgerrule.

The Last Dance?

Re: Luna, I don't think she fits as The Dark Chick because I don't think she fits as part of the Five Bad Band. Durandal as the Big Bad, Rey as his right-hand man and Shinn is his muscle I can buy, but Luna doesn't really fit as The Dark Chick. It's not just "The Chick, but evil" (which she doesn't fit anyway, because she never really DOES anything evil), the trademark of The Dark Chick is standing out from the rest of the Five Bad Band, looking or acting significantly differently than the rest of the team, which Luna doesn't.

Re: Djibril, I don't think he counts as a Replacement Scrappy because I don't think he counts as being Azrael's replacement. Okay, sure, they're both the Earth Alliance-aligned Big Bad, but they don't really fill the same niche in their respective shows. Azrael showed up late in the series and assumed direct military control of the local OMNI forces, whereas Djibril showed up very early and is a much more hands-off manipulate-from-the-shadows type villain.

Re: Yzak, he's not really chaotic. He consistantly sticks with ZAFT even when he knows they're in the wrong. He does bend the rules, but he never really says Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right!. He's Neutral Good if anything, but I don't think he really fits any of the alignment pidgeonholes, which is why I didn't list one for him.

Re: Rau, I really don't buy the "woobie" part of Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds (his daddy was a jerk so he murdered him, burnt his mansion down, and decided to kill everyone? There's a whole lot of Axe-Crazy and not a lot of Woobie there) but I'm willing to leave it in if other people want it. But he's definitely Aloof Big Brother rather than Big Brother Mentor — the latter has close, healthy relationship, while the former has a a distant, emotionally stunted relationship that inspires an inferiority complex, a desire to match/surpass the "big brother", rather than the motivation to live up to your own potential that the Big Brother Mentor gives. Besides, Rau was off being a ZAFT soldier, he didn't have time to take care of Rey — if anything, Durandal would be the Big Brother Mentor (if he wasn't a Parental Substitue instead)

Oh, and on the subject of Auel, I only remember him using Stella's block word once (during the Armory One raid), and it was justified in that instance, even if he did enjoy it a little too much. I'm probably forgetting a time or two it gets used, but it certainly doesn't happen constantly like the Kick the Dog comment implies.

Other minor things: unspoilered some stuff because completely blank examples are useless, especially when they're untwisty in the first place and are spoilered in other examples anyway (what's the point of spoilering Cloning Blues but not The Reveal?). Also took out Feed Me because it's a supertrope; there's no point in having Evil Is Hammy and Feed Me. Ditto Super Serum and Psycho Serum. Zen Survivor was removed because it's a trope about a particular sort of Trickster Mentor that didn't apply to most of the characters; the one you're looking for is Older and Wiser, which is already listed for basically all returning characters.

And finally! Some of the changes listed under my name were not done by me. (For example, the changes to Nietzsche Wannabe and Sympathy for the Devil in Rey's entry, changing Stella back to Stellar, a bunch of others.) Some wonkyness with people making simultaneous edits?

The original expansion of Nietzsche Wannabe was mine. Don't know what's up with the rest.

Whether you like him or not, Le Creuset is a classic example of Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds: I hurt so much, that everything has to go away. He's one of the few undisputed examples on the page. The fact that he's dying young, and can't look in the mirror without freaking out is a part of it too. The majority of scenes with him in Seed Destiny actually help to humanise him even more, so it needs to be here. Does he really count as Aloof Big Brother? I thought you had to be deliberately cold and aloof, and from what we see of them, Rau's far warmer with Rey then he is with anyone else; heck he seems to genuinely like him. Would it be fair to attach a comment to Aloof Big Brother about how he's trying to be a Big Brother Mentor and failing?

I think Kick the Dog needs to be left in with Auel, because that's exactly what his use of the word (as well as his mocking of her) are meant to emphasise: that he's the nastiest of the three Extended, at least initially.

Feed Me is a particular moment which is why I'd included it. Djibril is normally over-the-top, but that's the only time he really hits total, on-screen Axe-Crazy. I think I've got a better way to put it in though (I'll just link it through the quote).

Luna may not do anything evil, but she fits in the sense that by being totally passive and not speaking out about the fake Lacus etc, she enables Rey to continue to easily use Shinn. That, along with her gender, genuine lack of Kick the Dog, and the fact that she's motivated by loyalty to ZAFT rather than "change the world" is what got me to classify her as the Dark Chick in the first place. She's very different from the two boys, just in a positive way instead of a negative one.

Djibril may be different from Azrael, but if you go on any boards where they are discussed, expect to see him bashed for being dumber, less sucessful, and less classy than Azrael.

I think the Stella thing may have been changed back yet again. What is up with that?

EDIT: How do we decide what's untwisty anyway? A lot of people act like Rey's being a clone in particular "just came out of nowhere". I don't agree (then again, I'm one of those freaks who thinks this was a great show) but how do we decide what should and what shouldn't be spoilered. I can also honestly tell you that my girlfriend and I, and one of my other anime geek friends, freaked when we found out Neo was La Flaga. Put it down to great willing suspension of disbelief, and Trevor Devall being in a lot of stuff.

EDIT: Quite a few changes seem to have been randomly deleted. Going off what you said about stuff just vanishing, and the fact that you don't mention them above I'm going to put a few back in

Re: Rau, the definition of Woobie is that it engages audience sympathy. You're quite honestly the first person I've ever seen express that opinion about Rau. If you really want to keep it, fine, but register my complete and utter bafflement at the gleefully dog-kicking Omnicidal Maniac being someone's Draco in Leather Pants.

Re: Luna, I still call Square Peg Round Trope. She just doesn't fit, and I think you're just looking to flesh out the Five Bad Band. But not worth getting into an edit war over.

Re: Stella, I changed that back when I reverted the odd changes that were attributed to me but I didn't make.

Re: "untwisty", I think both Rey and Neo's identities count, given how they didn't try real hard to hide their identities in the first place (I mean, you brainwashed a "dead" guy into a new person an named him Neo? Really? Subtle.), but deciding what to spoilerize is one of the more difficult decisions in examples. I generally think it's fine as-is for now.

The only other change I disagree with is reverting Xanatos Speed Chess to Trickster. Durandal is not a Trickster. Just reading the Trickster page makes that obvious. "The Trickster openly questions and mocks authority, encourages impulse and enthusiasm, seeks out new ideas and experiences, destroys convention and complacency, and promotes chaos and unrest. At the same time, the trickster brings new knowledge, wisdom and many An Aesop. Even when punished horribly for his effrontery, his indomitable spirit keeps him coming back for more. The trickster is often a Master Of Disguise and may have magical or super-powers. They are always Chaotic Neutral." Absolutely no part of that describes Durandal. And besides, Xanatos Speed Chess fits the pothole ("rolls with unexpected events") way better than Trickster does.

Problem is that if you're going to class him as Magnificent Bastard, it's supposed to include the trickster element, in the sense of adapting to unexpected changes. If you want to keep it at Xanatos Speed Chess fine, but it might mean he doesn't qualify.

With regards to Le Creuset, I can't be the only one, given that I first discovered Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds through him (on the Seed page), and he was already there. He's also got entries on Evil Is Cool and Magnificent Bastard. Anyway, what the trope refers to is that a character hurts so much they want to take everything out. As the page used to say, "everything has to go" so that they can feel better...often right before they go too. It's about what's motivating you to be an Omnicidal Maniac, and it very much applies to Le Creuset. Attempts were made recently to split the page between Woobies and something called Put Them All Out of My Misery (which really sounds like Rau, doesn't it) but the latter trope is so poorly written, and so badly constructed that it's impossible to tell who qualifies and who doesn't, or even what exactly it's supposed to be about. Even after the page split, Le Creuset still hits every requirement for Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds. On a personal note, not giving him Draco in Leather Pants. He's a monster who needed to die; just one that I happen to a)-feel sorry for, and b)-think was a great villain. Check out the Seed page for more on what people think of Rau. Like Flay, he's listed as a very polarising character with your and my opinions representing more or less the split. (That's not getting into the crazy fangirls who think he should like, totally, have been allowed to blow up the world).

Is there a better term for Luna's role? I don't want to add her back if you really feel that strongly about it, but it seems to be that she does meet the Dark Chick requirements.

Like the comment about Neo; but hey, this is Djibril we're talking about. He probably thought it the height of cunning.

Re: Magnificent Bastard, Tropes Are Flexible. Durandal's definitely a Magnificent Bastard, but just as definitely not a Trickster. Don't sweat it; no one's going to revoke his Magnificent Bastard status on a technicality.