Characters Homestuck Discussion

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06:08:55 PM Mar 24th 2013
Just reading over the tropes, and John being a Horrible Judge of Character isn't really a subversion. He pretty much blindly trusts anyone he stumbles across, and the cases where it works out for him (Terezi, Vriska) aren't due to his judgement of them. Up to that point, there actions had actually been malicious and evil, and things worked out simply because John was lucky.
01:09:51 PM Mar 8th 2013
I'm debating whether or not to add a section in Other Characters for Nektan Whelan and Mierfa Durgas, the trolls that Hussie canonized on the 3/7/13 update. They're canonical characters- but they have no story presence. Maybe it's a case of All There in the Manual. Thoughts?
12:38:15 AM Nov 22nd 2012
edited by SpitefulFox
Should "The Narrator" get his own character entry? He doesn't seem to be Hussie's self-insert.
04:56:20 PM Nov 23rd 2012
Neeevermind, he definitely seems to be Hussie's self-insert.
11:07:07 AM Jun 3rd 2012
So in light of todays page do we give ghost dirk his own entry.
11:14:01 PM Jun 30th 2012
Although he's an individual entity in a sense, ghost dirk is still shares the exact same characteristics and mannerisms (for all we know) as the real Dirk. Ghost dirk is merely the projection of Dirk's personality through Jake's subconscious, and unconsciously amplified by the full knowledge that Jake's Page of Hope powers endow him with.
01:43:06 AM Dec 9th 2011
just one quick question: should the image of this page: be put in the character section? (it just seems appropriate for the subject)
04:52:44 PM Apr 17th 2012
Probably not; it's direct spoilers and we might want to avoid that.
09:57:07 PM Jul 10th 2011
It's bugging me that Vriska has a character page all to herself. Would splitting the 12 trolls into groups of three instead of four work, or is her entry too big for two others to fit with her?
04:53:24 PM Apr 17th 2012
Her section was too big. When it was on the page with the greenbloods, her section took up 2/3 of the page. It's huuuuuuuuge.
08:16:30 PM Feb 19th 2011
Reposting this from the main discussion thread
  • Moved the Ancestors to other because they are not guardians
  • Moved the lusi to Guardians because they are
  • Linked a redirect on the sprite page reflecting the above move

Perhaps the ancestors can be combined with general troll info, but my browser keeps crashing on huge page edits and I dunno if I can handle that stuff.
07:11:09 PM May 7th 2011
A few months later here, Ancestors are really reaching the point where their collective article should be broken up into seperate tropes. Given that we still have half of them left to be revealed, that section is gonna swell up a lot.
06:12:41 PM Feb 15th 2011
Do the Troll Ancestors need an entry in the Character Sheet?
06:18:27 PM Feb 15th 2011
Perhaps if/when they get more divergent development. At the moment, there's not much to them aside from their apparent resemblance to the Hivebent trolls.
06:29:02 PM Feb 10th 2011
It kind of bugs me that Grandpa isn't listed as a Guardian. Even if Bec was the one to raise Jade for most of her life, shouldn't he at least get credit for being her equivalent of Mom, Bro, and Nanna?
06:02:11 AM Feb 4th 2011
I recently gave the normal trope sub-page index a bit of an overhaul. Instead of "SWITCH X", it now lists the sub-pages as Lands of _____ and _____. Is there sufficient motive to follow suit in any way on the character page?
11:19:17 PM Feb 4th 2011
05:25:58 AM Feb 5th 2011
Bluntly stated.
09:50:47 AM Jan 5th 2011
edited by Loyal2NES
Two issues: -First: Something seems to have broken the indexing for the Character Subpages. Anyone know why it happened/how to fix it? -Second: Do we REALLY need to link the subpage for S Ba HJ characters? They don't interact with the comic in any way, meaningful or otherwise (even Andrew and Ms.Paint took part in the recaps and stuff), and there's already a main article for S Ba HJ itself.
12:33:33 PM Jan 5th 2011
Don't know what broke the indexing. It looks like it should work
11:09:55 PM Jun 30th 2012
edited by dman334
I'm going to resurrect this thread and take the liberty of supporting your second motion. I've checked sbahj's own character page, and it's pretty much a word for word copypasta. I'll remove it in an effort to reduce clutter.

Edit: Scratch that, the two are exactly the same, because the one on sbahj links directly to the one indexed under homestuck. Openly requesting ideas as to a move of the entire article to sbahj.
03:57:06 PM Dec 13th 2010
I think the last links on each of the sub-pages should read "Start over" instead of "Return to main page". It'd fit the theme a bit better.
03:58:10 PM Dec 13th 2010
Start over is on the main page, and goes back to the TV tropes main page.
04:59:21 PM Dec 13th 2010
I know; I was the one who added it.
04:54:55 AM Dec 3rd 2010
Do we really need three separate pages for the trolls?
09:01:51 AM Dec 3rd 2010
According to the Trope Repair Shop thread, if the trolls were on a single page it would be almost large enough to break the server by itself.

We really are a loquacious bunch.
10:12:55 PM Dec 2nd 2010
Waitaminute. New organization is nice and all, but where'd the trolls go?
10:18:59 PM Dec 2nd 2010
First guess was Homestuck Trolls, but turns out 3 pages were made for them.
03:18:32 AM Dec 3rd 2010
Which I enjoy the new page split, does someone want to Homestuckify the new page links? I'd doo it myself, but I don't have the time to go through all of them right at the moment.
09:00:30 AM Dec 3rd 2010
Let's not — it's nice to be able to figure out where the pages go.
02:48:48 PM Dec 14th 2010
I gave it a bit of flavor text while keeping the directions simply and easy to understand. Hope this keeps everything neat and tidy.
09:01:18 PM Nov 27th 2010
Maybe I'm missing something, but I think that "[s] Jade: Enter" is pretty unambiguous about Jack being Lord English; I'm not sure how it could be construed as a joke.
09:48:33 PM Nov 27th 2010
The demon and Lord English have never been explicitly stated to be the same person. It's just pretty damn likely.

I don't get the 'that was just Andrew joking' bit, though.
10:14:45 PM Nov 27th 2010
Seems pretty explicit to me. Karkat woke up on Prospit for the one and only time, right before it was destroyed, and he saw Perfect Form Jack, who he acknowledged in Alterniabound to be the same demon as appeared in the Scratch, which was stated to be Lord English. It's also the best explanation for how he manages to be more powerful than even Doc Scratch. He trumps First Guardians because he's packing the full power of one as just one of his four prototypings.

Further, that makes the full responsibility for the ruination of the Trolls' game fall on all four kids. Rose for writing down MEOW, John for giving the code to Dave, Dave for letting the Dignitary grab it (thus causing Haley to be paradox cloned into Becquerel), and Jade for making possible Jack's rise to power which led to her prototyping dilemma that led to Bec using himself.
10:38:33 PM Nov 27th 2010
11:00:48 PM Nov 27th 2010
Okay, I'm willing to admit that I may have been a bit premature in my judgment. I should point out, however, that if Lord English isn't Jack, then we have no reason to believe he is the big bad. The entry in his section should be edited to reflect this.
11:39:30 PM Nov 27th 2010
edited by Altimadark
At first, I was a little surprised that things got edited such that Jack/Bec Noir = LE was still unconfirmed, so I've been overlooking the archives. Here's what I've found out:

  • Nobody has explicitly referred to Bec Noir as Lord English at any time during the comic.
  • Lord English himself has been mentioned only twice outside the intermission, and only once by name; it had almost nothing to do with the Trolls' SGRUB session.
  • Lord English uses ~ATH to enter into a dead universe upon the Great Undoing, which is clearly identified as that universe's death, not the destruction of a SBURB/SGRUB session as may have been assumed.
  • It's also clearly stated that while the scratch — recently identified as Bec Noir's arrival into Sgrub — leads to the Great Undoing, it does not directly cause it. Doc Scratch even tells Aradia that Bec Noir is not his business.

So after all that... I've actually been swayed the other way, in that we don't yet have definitive proof that the BN = LE theory is true. In fact, some of Andrew's posts on Formspring suggest that the Demon = LE assumption was always meant to be a Red Herring, without denying the possibility for The Un-Twist later on.
01:16:54 AM Dec 3rd 2010
which was stated to be Lord English.

No. It wasn't.
11:37:02 AM Nov 12th 2010
Octacharon, why are you deleting everything that refers to the "Rose is crazy Jade is crazier" line or however it went? (Also, why are you typing things like "hahahahaha" in the edit reasons box? Is that supposed to be helpful?)
04:51:47 PM Nov 14th 2010
edited by Octachoron
"TG: oh you know

TG: noirs outta control

TG: rose is crazy jades crazier and youre

TG: well youre you"

I don't understand how you can possibly get "they both went insane" out of this. It demands no explanation because it is completely stupid in every conceivable way.
04:58:46 PM Nov 14th 2010
That seems to be a pretty unambiguous stement that Rose and Jade went crazy.
05:19:10 PM Nov 14th 2010
I think some context might be helpful here. Is Octachoron deleting random memetic references? Subjective interpretations of the line? Anything that states either Rose or Jade are crazy? The first two would be valid edits, but the third would not.
11:41:40 AM Nov 15th 2010
I seriously don't understand why you get they're insane out of that. I don't even know what I'm supposed to be arguing against here.
04:50:00 AM Nov 26th 2010
Pretty late on this, but people porbably thought Rose and Jade were going crazy because Dave said rose and Jade were going crazy. They are pretty literal.

And really, people have been assuming Rose has gone off the deep end since she alchemized the Thorns of Oglogoth, so maybe there's some confirmation bias there.
08:04:47 PM Nov 11th 2010
Hussie has stated on his formspring that the kid's eyes match their text colour. So, while John and Jades eyes haven't been shown, we do know what colour they are.
08:36:18 PM Nov 11th 2010
edited by Taelor
No, he didn't. The questioner suggested it, and Hussie's response was "sure looks like it."
08:59:08 PM Nov 11th 2010
That's a reply of 'you can consider it canon', not 'I don't feel like answering'.
12:35:58 AM Nov 4th 2010
Would another one of Equius's typing quirks be that he capitalizes the word STRONG and variations thereof?
01:13:23 AM Nov 4th 2010
Appears to be the case.
07:16:38 AM Oct 30th 2010
Octacharon: Aradia was faking the suicide threat (hmm, as in Rose's first Strife), but I don't think she's faking being upset. Her head is in her hands, and lines like this: "the kn0wing is the same as this elusive feeling 0f sickness thats been with me f0r years" seem like an authentic flip the fuck outing.

Obviously we should discuss it before reverting the edit, but is there a good reason to think she's faking being upset in a way that she hasn't been before? (For instance, does she adopt that pose before? I might have missed one.) She does describe it (in second person) as a "silly conversation," but again that's in relation to not committing suicide, not necessarily that she isn't upset yet.
01:56:05 PM Oct 30th 2010
No, the guy saying she was faking it is rather silly.

She's faking being willing to blow herself up for a point, but she was running her mouth and felt very strongly on the subject.

If there's another way to interpret it, it is speculative.
04:33:11 PM Oct 30th 2010
Well, maybe one way to make it clearer (and less controversial) is to refer to her "venting," which is how the next page describes it. That's what I'll do.
05:37:03 PM Oct 20th 2010
edited by Hylarn
Well, we broke the folders. From what I understand, this is because there's too much stuff in one of them. Specifically, the trolls. Should split it in half.

Edit:Worked! So don't undo it.
12:19:27 AM Oct 21st 2010
I wonder if we should have split them using a specific criterion, such as gender or team.
01:04:38 AM Oct 21st 2010
Not the teams. They were relevant for, what, an eighth of 5.1? Gender could work, though it'd be weird considering it's not really relevant in troll society.

And having them in zodiac/blood order just makes the most sense.
08:19:55 PM Oct 16th 2010
So there seems to be some dispute about exactly how to describe Vriska's acts. The Complete Monster and Moral Event Horizon pages are currently labeled with warnings against putting them on works' pages, which seems overcautious to me in general — would anyone argue that Voldemort and Xykon aren't Complete Monsters? — but in this case there's enough dispute that we should probably at least qualify it. But what do they go under? The evil things that she's shown to do to sympathetic characters are surely notable (in contrast to Eridan and Terezi, who seem to have killed a lot of trolls, but almost completely anonymous trolls killed offscreen).

One thing that makes it a bad fit is that we can have a happy ending with Vriska still around, contra the Complete Monster page. On the other hand, Vriska doesn't have her humanizing conversations with John until she's been killed off once; is this a variation of Death Equals Redemption? Should it go under the Kick the Dog entry? Token Evil Teammate?

(For the record, in case we want to put some of it back in later, the deleted tropes are:
  • Complete Monster: Karkat is angry all the time. Terezi pretends to execute her stuffed animals and cheerfully tries to trick people to their deaths. Equius is an misanthrobopic racist. But none of them routinely kills for the Levulz, or crippled a friend in an attempt at courtship. And when someone sends creepy but ultimately harmless spirits to haunt her in revenge for the spoilered act? She uses mind control to make her closest friend KILL HER!
    • And later on, she uses her Sgrub server powers to toy with said crippled friend, while ordering him to apologize for being crippled.
    • After she loses her eyes and arm to Terezi's payback, she possesses Terezi's dragon keeper through Tavros and tricks her into staring at the sun, blinding her permanently. Not that this bothers her.

  • Moral Event Horizon: "Do you want to flyyyyyyyy, Tavros?" The trolls' world is pretty harsh, but several trolls despise her for this. Not even Doc Scratch understands why any of them still associate with her.
09:09:37 PM Oct 16th 2010
"would anyone argue that Voldemort and Xykon aren't Complete Monsters?"

As I recall, there was a relatively heated discussion on the Complete Monster discussion page on exactly that point.
10:58:03 PM Oct 16th 2010
edited by Slandor
Huh. Learn something new every day.

I don't want to distract from the point here, though — where should Vriska's stuff go?
12:21:22 PM Oct 19th 2010
I don't think it should be on the page, certainly she has done all those things, she's the Token Evil Teammate, yes, but whether she is beyond redemption depends on how the comic goes and what the reader thinks. As that is part of the criteria of the trope, I'd much rather it stay as the less heavy-handed version it was prior to whoever edited it recently.

To me, another metric of this is where Vriska is in the story, she's a supporting character along with the rest of the trolls. But whatever, I'd prefer there to be less debate and for the debate to stay off the trope page.
09:41:26 PM Oct 19th 2010
I added a cross-reference from Token Evil Teammate to the Complete Monster entry. If anyone feels strongly enough about it, I guess my favorite solution would be to move the current Complete Monster entry down to Token Evil Teammate, with the proviso that some feel this makes her a Complete Monster.

Though I feel that the Cameron Poe thing puts her across the Moral Event Horizon. That's just wrong.
03:59:44 AM Dec 1st 2010
edited by FoolsEditAccount
From the Complete Monster trope page:

"The Complete Monster is the most depraved of all characters; a villain utterly lacking in redeeming features. Trying to put a value on the evilness of a Complete Monster is like calculating the credit score of Bill Gates: it's a moot point. Likewise, trying to find a drop of goodness in them is like trying to find a specific grain of sand on every beach in the world, it's impossible."

...I really don't think she fits that description, especially since Hussie has now been turning her into more of a Woobie. (And she seems to be a good enough moirail to Tavros)

Edit: What do you mean by "Cameron Poe thing", Slandor? I am rather culturally illiterate, and now curious.
03:04:58 PM Dec 15th 2010
In light of the revelation that she has been orchestrating Jack's rise to omnipotence from the start in order to satisfy her own ego, giving her some of the blame for the countless deaths he's caused, maybe we should reconsider including a Complete Monster entry. It's pretty clear at this point that she doesn't feel guilty at all and will never seek redemption.
04:27:56 PM Dec 15th 2010
edited by morpheme
It's a subjective trope; it belongs on the YMMV page. Where it is.
05:27:04 PM Dec 15th 2010
edited by FoolsEditAccount
Orchestrating Jack's rise to power for her own ego files her under a Chaotic Neutral Glory Hound who is likely to get a (possibly fatal) Break the Haughty moment, not a Complete Monster. That page says that a character must fit ALL six criteria to qualify, Vriska only hits about three. "Complete Monster" is a very extreme label and requires that the character has zero redeeming features.
09:01:34 AM Dec 16th 2010
I would argue that she definitely fits all six criteria quite well. 1) She has clearly committed heinous actions by the standards of the story without ever trying to genuinely make up for them, and she only presents her actions in a positive light when she's trying to manipulate others into doing what she wants. 2) No one would argue that her actions aren't Nightmare Fuel. 3) Though she is played for laughs, it is only to a degree fitting the tone of the work, and other characters tend to take her actions seriously. 4) She has no adequate justification or Freudian excuse to balance out her misdeeds. 5) She never displays anything resembling regret for her actions. She does apologize a couple times, but her apologies are disingenuous and are only meant to get others to do what she wants. 6) She has no desire to seek redemption, and at this point it seems as though she never will. Even if she dies killing Jack, actually saving people would almost certainly have nothing to do with her motivations; she'd still just be trying to prove that she's better than everyone for her own ego. You could argue that the work could still have a happy ending with her surviving, but that doesn't necessarily disqualify her, as the main point of the sixth criterion is a lack of redemptive potential.
01:20:19 PM Dec 16th 2010
edited by FoolsEditAccount
How are her actions Nightmare Fuel? Her FLARP sessions maybe, but those were largely Offstage Villainy. And yes, she does have a Freudian Excuse (she is socially retarded by troll standards, had a horrible upbringing, and was forced to cause massacres to feed her lusus). Though I can understand if you think this doesn't excuse her actions, it is a rather major one and can potentially keep her out of Complete Monster territory, at the very least. She also did seem to feel genuine regret for killing Aradia, though admittedly that's the only case she seems to apologize for.

Furthermore, though, I'm pretty sure that a character has to be an explicit villain to be a Complete Monster. Vriska is a Chaotic Neutral Byronic Hero, but as her character page entry states, she is still playing for the good team.

Edit: About the "Well she orchestrated Jack's rise to power, that makes her responsible for all the deaths he's caused!" thing... In the original timeline, from her point of view, Bec Noir already existed. Nothing she did would change that; even without her intervention, he would have risen to power somehow. Like Tavros, she was just trying to technically take credit for it, even though it would have happened anyway. Would you blame Tavros for killing Jade's grandpa even though he said that Bec teleported the bullet in the original timeline anyway?
08:49:44 PM Oct 3rd 2010
Um... I noticed someone added Ambiguously Autistic to Nepeta's section and given that the page for Ambiguously Autistic specifically mentions it having to go beyond Fanwankery of assigning autism to any quirky character, I am curious to hear what sort of specific qualities of autism does she appear to possess, because I didn't pick up on it.

Of course, this is a very YMMV thing, but still.
09:10:02 PM Oct 3rd 2010
Honestly, I was under the impression that the only "evidence" there ever was was that Karkat referred to her as "an autistic girl in a cave".
12:29:53 AM Oct 4th 2010
I can say from experience that Nepeta has no autistic qualities whatsoever. She's just weird is all.
05:24:56 PM Nov 30th 2010
edited by FoolsEditAccount
Actually this requires some explaining. Picture all of our social norms, then invert them. You now have a good impression of what troll social norms are. To us, acting calm and nice is the "default" state that people usually assume when they are talking to people. When people start yelling and getting angry, that evokes a reaction of fear from us and shows that the person has passed a breaking point. For the trolls, it's the opposite. Trolls assume that you will be angry with the person just on principle rather than the topic of the conversation, so yelling/anger is a "default" state that trolls are used to — it shows that the other person is mad but not so mad that they're going to stab you. Therefore, to the trolls, the only reason you'd act nice to someone is if you've passed the breaking point and are planning to backstab them later. People like Nepeta and Tavros, on the other hand, are just nice on principle, but come off as autistic because they're the trolls' version of people who are constantly shouting like they're angry over every little thing (Gamzee too).

In sum, though Nepeta isn't autistic by our standards, she is by the trolls'. Not sure if that counts enough to add Ambiguously Autistic to her, though.

(This is also why everyone treats Vriska like a sociopath — she never acts nice to people even when she's past the breaking point, so she's like the murderer who's smiling and happy as she comes at you with the knife.)
07:35:32 PM Nov 30th 2010
One, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what autism is and how people with autism behave. They don't have the innate ability to perceive how other people will react to things and what their intentions are, and tend to process everything from their perspective instead of anyone else's. They also just aren't very interested in interacting with others and prefer to live in their own little worlds, and taking them out of those worlds and placing them in social situations they don't understand is understandably upsetting to them (which is where that "autistic people are angry people" thing comes from I guess). The complete inversion of autism would be someone very extroverted, personable and outgoing, probably a skilled manipulator who can read your face like a book, and with little concept of what personal space means. And that... that describes Terezi, not Nepeta.

Two, Vriska is capable of being nice. Play as her in Alterniabound and talk to Feferi.
03:27:53 AM Dec 1st 2010
edited by FoolsEditAccount
No, I didn't mean that Vriska is autistic by troll standards... and yes I don't know that much about autism, I'll admit. The point I was trying to make was simply that to them, Nepeta, Tavros, and Vriska seem really weird because they only use one emotional signal, even when they're feeling the other one. (That's also why Karkat says that Vrika's hate is so "empty" — one might say that to a psychopath who never shows outward signs of anger and aggression — "your niceness is so empty, you're broken in the head")

Maybe it's Andrew who doesn't understand what autism means? o_O

Edit: Even if we could write her off as autistic, she wouldn't be ambiguously so, since Karkat states it outright...does this make this whole discussion moot?
12:17:08 PM Dec 2nd 2010
I always took it as more that Karkat doesn't understand what autism means. Just because he called her that doesn't make him right, y'know.
07:29:27 PM Oct 2nd 2010
Does John really have Obfuscating Stupidity? While he's more insightful than he lets on, he's not faking being a total goofball.
03:41:43 AM Oct 3rd 2010
I don't see it as obfuscating, more acting silly because he likes too. He's intelligent, but also The Fool and likes to shut his brain off.
07:31:53 PM Sep 29th 2010
It seems to me that having been mind-controlled into killing his best friend is one plausible reason that Sollux might object to someone else trying to mind-control him. There's also the trauma of feeling all the other trolls dying from the Vast Glub. Perhaps those should both be mentioned as potential, not definitive, explanations of his Berserk Button.
09:14:54 PM Sep 29th 2010
edited by Majutsukai
I thought they had been? Did that bit get deleted or something? Hold on, lemme check.

e: Okay, apparently it did. I went ahead and restored it.
09:59:04 AM Sep 30th 2010
Okay, hiya. Yeah, sorry, I'm one of the guys who has been deleting it.

Mainly because though it is a fine potential reason, the way it was phrased seemed to make it the definite reason.

Also, the way "manipulation" works seems to be very different from the way the "voices" work, so, I don't necessarily feel as though it is that strong of a connection. Second, this conversation seems to suggest that Sollux is not aware of Aradia's death: and as for that Terezi found out through Sollux and Sollux helped Terezi contact Doc Scratch under the pretense of revenge specifically, I sort of want to see that part put plainly, anyone have a link?

Oh and uh, yeah, basically, seems a bit speculative.
10:16:45 AM Sep 30th 2010
edited by Luzerne
iiiiii agree with the person who's deleting that part. It's just a guess, and there's a lot more likely reason than Aradia's death anyway—just a few minutes before he met CD he was the death cries of literally every living troll left in the universe while he was also dying of psychic ebola. He seemed to be hopeful the voices would all shut up once he got into the game, and then it turned out that was only technically true (the old ones are gone, but there are new ones to deal with). Going nuclear is a pretty understandable reaction there.

Also Vriska controls peoples' bodies, not their minds, and there's no voice accompanying it. I can't find the log but there's evidence of that in the Vriska/Karkat log where she mind controls him into going back online, and when she forced Tavros off the cliff.

So Sollux's Berserk Button in all likelihood has nothing to do with what happened to Aradia. There's not much evidence for it. It's a WMG. (Almost everyting relating to Sollux/Aradia is. There hasn't even been any confirmation that they were actually in a relationship, it's all been Ship Tease.)
10:43:21 AM Sep 30th 2010
edited by Majutsukai
I am willing to concede the argument for the sake of simplicity, I suppose, but let me explain my reasoning somewhat more thoroughly.

The first conversation Terezi had with Doc Scratch revealed that Terezi was aware Aradia had died. Scratch also observed that she would later come under the impression that Aradia hadn't died. It did not go into specifics about how Terezi found out that Aradia had been killed, but she said: "GC: YOU S41D W3 B3L13V3 OUR FR13ND 1S D34D \ GC: 1S SH3 NOT?"— I don't really know who else she could be referring to with "we" than to herself and Sollux. I don't know how else she could have found out that Aradia was dead than through Sollux, either.

Presumably, when Terezi came under the (false) impression that Aradia was still alive, Sollux did as well.

Relevant conversation:

But at any rate, I'm fine with leaving it deleted for now.
11:52:49 AM Sep 30th 2010
That is probably all true, but it doesn't have anything to do with the trope this discussion topic is about?

The thing is that Vriska's technique is physical. She doesn't suggest. She takes people over and makes them do what she wants them to even while they are fully aware and protesting. That method of mind control is completely different from hearing voices, so Aradia's death and blowing up CD's computer are not connected.
02:03:48 PM Sep 30th 2010
edited by Majutsukai
I have my doubts about how "physical" her control is, given that she was able to force Tavros to use his psychic abilities.

The way she was talking to Tavros while manipulating him the first time raises eyebrows as well, though I realize that could have just been her toying with him psychologically. It did strike me as some sort of compulsion, though. Her words stank very strongly of psychic suggestion.

And it's related because Sollux was fully aware of having been forced to kill Aradia, and was probably pretty troubled about it! So it would be understandable for him to have a very short fuse when it comes to other people screwing around in his brain, be it voices or psychic compulsions.

Plus my post was specifically intended as a rebuttal to the assertion that Sollux wasn't aware that he had killed Aradia, which someone upthread had made. So it was relevant to that.
05:44:47 PM Sep 30th 2010
edited by Slandor
I agree with Majutsukai on two of these points:

Vriska's abilities sometimes seem to be mental; in addition to the points Maju's cited, the command for Vriska to make Tavros kiss her was something like "Make Pupa have happy thoughts." Which isn't definitive, but it makes it seem like she has some imperfect mental control. [EDIT: I just noticed, where Andrew says "Vriska commandeered Tavros's mind to get him to use his psychic powers."]

Also, the "we" in Terezi's comment definitely refers to her and Sollux; it goes back to this comment by Doc Scratch: "I gather he has recovered from his implementation as a weapon in the sabotage of your mutual friend, whom you both believe to be dead." So Sollux knows what happened, and might think afterwards that Aradia is still alive. (I wouldn't necessarily conclude that Terezi could only have found out about Aradia's death through Sollux — she presumably had some way of getting in touch with Aradia through FLARP.)

Buuut, I also agree with 168.7 that this is speculative and shouldn't be presented as a definite reason. If someone were to want to put it back in, it should probably be along the line of "This might be because of having been mind-controlled to kill his best friend, or because of the trauma of psychically hearing all the other trolls dying from the Vast Glub." Emphasis on the "might." And, eh, it's probably just as well left out. (Especially because Luzerne makes a good point — I wouldn't say we know that Vriska's technique doesn't manifest itself as a voice, but we don't know it does either.)
01:04:14 AM Oct 1st 2010
edited by
I agree 100% with everything stated here (well, uh, in that last post, not like, everything everything, that'd be contradicting). That was all civil, it is great!
03:47:58 AM Sep 28th 2010
I don't think Vriska counts as a Draco in Leather Pants. She's a huge bitch, yes, but not a villain by any stretch of the imagination.
02:51:38 PM Sep 28th 2010
Not to mention no one really thinks most of the stuff she does is justified. That trope gets a lot of misuse.

Speaking of which, what's the deal with T Vtropes and Vriska hate?
05:08:33 PM Sep 28th 2010
I guess crippling Tavros gave a strong first impression.
12:59:18 AM Sep 29th 2010
And even with the Horror Hunger, it's still creepy.
11:44:18 AM Sep 10th 2010
Under Came Back Wrong, wouldn't you say that Aradia starts as a Type I and moves to Type II? The page for type I (Soulless Shell) even mentions the empty eyes and lists Emotionless Girl as one of the possibilities; it's not until she gets the Soulbot that the berserk rage starts.

...on the other hand, berserk rage against Vriska is a pretty rational reaction for her to have, so maybe that's not Type II at all.
12:46:00 PM Sep 10th 2010
We have no evidence that she's a Damaged Soul at all, so I'd say "no" to type 2.
01:44:05 PM Sep 10th 2010
Future Karkat did say she was "shithive maggots," but I guess we should wait until we see her more objectively to decide.
04:37:08 PM Sep 10th 2010
edited by Slandor
I was thinking of her attack on Vriska as corresponding to Damaged Soul, though I guess if the D.S. is "very likely to be pissed off at whoever brought them back from the dead" that would mean she'd go after Equius. Which she did, at first, but for good reasons.

Well, I'll either probably change it to something along the lines of "Starts out as a Type I, but gets better," maybe with this quote from Terezi:



Unless someone thinks it should be "Starts out as a Type I; may have become Type II"? I guess her sparing Tavros is further evidence that she's not a type II? Since her rage is basically directed at Vriska, who totally deserves it.
04:40:51 PM Sep 11th 2010
Actually I think it's a subversion of Type I, because she isn't actually back at first, and when Equius brings her back she gets better.
03:39:44 PM Sep 7th 2010, what on earth are you doing? I look at the page history and all I see is you deleting examples left and right with no stated reason.

Well, other stuff too. But mostly that.
03:44:49 PM Sep 7th 2010
Me thinks I'm going to end up putting a bit of the stuff that he/she deleted back...
03:47:17 PM Sep 7th 2010
edited by Majutsukai
I'm still going through all the edits, but two things that jump to mind that were wrongfully deleted were Designated Protagonist Syndrome for John and Ghost Amnesia for Aradia.

(EDIT: And Ted Baxter for Karkat. He certainly acts like one if nothing else.)
09:23:06 PM Sep 7th 2010
edited by
The page was a huge mess, half the tropes didn't apply, and for some reason a lot of tropers edit in information from what I can only assume is their own personal fanon. I went through and fixed the incorrect examples because that sort of thing drives me insane.

I undoubtedly made a handful of mistakes, since the articles are huge, so yeah if you can find any put them back. But for the most part I spent a while checking things.
11:48:01 PM Sep 7th 2010
Honestly I'm more comfortable at least knowing the reason for each individual deletion just as a matter of preference— though I understand how that wouldn't be feasible for such a huge set of concurrent changes.
05:42:53 AM Sep 10th 2010
One thing that's a pretty large-scale mistake is changing every mention of playable characters to viewpoint characters. For a character to be playable is not the same thing for the story to switch to their point of view; the story switches to Doc Scratch's point of view but it's made explicit that he's not playable (won't accept commands from the prompt).
07:12:52 AM Sep 10th 2010
Oh whoa I didn't even notice that.

Yeah that's pretty bad. "Playable characters" is the actual term for those characters in MSPA.
03:12:33 PM Sep 10th 2010
I changed it because the story switching to their point of view is more important.

Lets face it, being playable in MSPA means less than nothing.
05:02:53 PM Sep 10th 2010
Not... really?

It's a term that relates to the format of the story, especially in the parts of the story before the suggestion boxes were locked (which comprises most of MSPA's history and at least two thirds of Homestuck).
05:44:55 PM Sep 10th 2010
edited by Slandor
Every playable character is a viewpoint character, but not every viewpoint character is a playable character, so I don't see how being a viewpoint character can be important while being a playable character means "less than nothing." [EDITADD: In fact it was a major psycheout that WV was the fourth playable character, when all signs pointed to GG; and this was different from the comic switching to his viewpoint in the "Years in the future, but not many" panel.]

...and even if it is, you weren't deleting mistaken tropes there, you were carrying out your own personal agenda, in a way that'll take a lot of effort to fix. That seems like the sort of thing you shouldn't do without running it by the discussion page.
09:33:40 AM Sep 4th 2010
Should there maybe be some mention made of the fact that the characters that are destined to become The Midnight Crew each correspond with a quadrant of troll romance? Spades Slick is spades, which symbolizes the calignous quadrant, and is possibly the most hate-filled being in the comic. Clubs Deuce is a happy-go-lucky moron who just wants everyone to get along, in keeping with his clubs suit and its connection to the ashen quadrant. Diamonds Droog has shown greater capacity for true friendship than the other three MC members, not to mention that his surname is "Friend" in Nadsat, thus the suit being diamonds and the quadrant being pale. Hearts Boxcars was very, VERY adamant about Tavros getting up and kissing Vriska, and the hearts represent the flushed quadrant. I'm just wondering if all that merits some sort of entries in their character profiles or something.
10:04:44 AM Sep 4th 2010
I think there's a place for that stuff in WMG, but I really think it's a bit of a stretch to be put anywhere else.
06:31:52 PM Sep 4th 2010
I mean, I just think that once you notice it, it's pretty obvious. Fridge Brilliance, I guess. There's just no way it's all a coincidence. I'm not saying the revelation signifies anything more than AH getting clever with us again, as he does EVERY time he comes up with some new pattern for us to decipher references to. 413, 612, ACGT, and now the four quadrants of troll romance. At this point, Hussie is making connections solely for the sake of making connections.
01:26:16 AM Sep 5th 2010
No way it's a coincidence?

That was my nice way of saying that I think it is just a coincidence. It just doesn't stick out to me as an intentional thing.

Like I said, the WMG page would be perfect for this.
05:36:40 AM Sep 10th 2010
I'm with Majutsukai here, especially because Droog doesn't seem like a moirail to me at all. We've just seen him encouraging extreme bloody revenge. And in some sense we know it is a coincidence, because the MC's personality were set probably before AH thought of the four kinds of troll romance. I wouldn't be surprised if he finds a way to tie it together, but as of now it's a WMG.
08:11:06 AM Sep 1st 2010
Karkat and Kanaya just had a pretty interesting conversation, I thought it showed a new side to him. He wasn't even rude! What sort of new tropes did he display, if any?
02:57:33 PM Aug 28th 2010
Do the pieces from Alternia really count as leitmotifs for the trolls? With one exception they haven't appeared in the comic at all, and even that exception appears once as a battle theme (and even then not in an animation). Some of them were even written before the character they're about was introduced. They're themes, yes, but not leitmotifs. Andrew has been moving away from using the Leitmotif concept anyway since he committed to doing flashes only for major events after Act 3.
03:25:28 PM Aug 28th 2010
Yeah, it seems to me like "leitmotif" is being used to mean "theme song", which isn't really a correct usage.
04:53:54 AM Aug 28th 2010
edited by Idiosyncrat
I just realised that I might be the one who keeps messing up the hearts and spades and stuff when I edit. I guess it happened because I was editing on my PS3 at the time, which is strange because the symbols show up perfectly fine. WEIRD!

So how do I get the symbols anyway? I should probably edit them back in, but I'm just not sure how to do that.
05:03:07 AM Aug 28th 2010
edited by Majutsukai
I think I was wrong when I added that comment to the page— I think that if you see the symbols as actual symbols while you're editing the page, then you shouldn't commit the edit because that's what causes it. They should appear as HTML entities, i.e. &# followed by some numbers followed by ; . I think you just have to find the proper entity code in order to make new symbols on the page.
05:15:04 AM Aug 28th 2010
Oh, if you were wanting to know how to fix it yourself, I just use the page history in a separate tab when I fix it. I took care of it this time, though.
09:14:48 AM Aug 28th 2010
Thanks! It won't happen again.
01:23:10 AM Aug 26th 2010
I saw that someone just added in the four kids' typing styles, but I thought we did have those in here at some point? Did they get deleted? The history doesn't go back far enough for me to tell.

Maybe I'm crazy, or maybe I'm remembering some other page in some other place. Anyone know?
01:49:43 PM Aug 26th 2010
You're not going crazy, it used to be listed on Main under all lowercase letters and maybe some other tropes too (and still is, kind of). Don't think it was ever on the character sheet though?
02:49:02 PM Aug 26th 2010
Hm, that might be what I was remembering— and if that's the case, then no wonder it got deleted.
02:27:14 AM Aug 23rd 2010
Just a small note. Somebody removed the One True Pairing entry for Kanaya/Sollux because they couldn't find Andrew's supposed endorsement on Formspring.

It's here: Just for the sake of completness.

I agree though that it was just a silly joke and doesn't belong on this page.
09:20:13 PM Aug 10th 2010
Somebody broke all the color tags in some huge edit on the page... my head hurts trying to check over that entire thing.
10:14:47 PM Aug 10th 2010
edited by Hylarn
It's the result of a script inserting spaces after *s and #s. Hopefully it'll be restricted to when they're at the start of a line soon.

Edit: And fixed.
03:22:31 PM Jul 20th 2010
Are we going overboard with the Troll's entries? I know that the intermission is more character-oriented than the main plot, but a month of Alternia, divided between 12 characters, has somehow given them all longer entries than any of the main characters. Should we maybe be working to condense them a bit?
03:29:09 PM Jul 20th 2010
That's backwards. If you have a problem with it you should expand the kids' entries.
04:07:54 PM Jul 20th 2010
Just... just so you know, this isn't an intermission. It's still part of the actual story.
10:33:00 AM Aug 2nd 2010
I don't see the problem. They're as long as they are because that's just how they naturally proceeded.

I think expanding the kids would be a good idea, though.
12:47:24 AM Aug 8th 2010
This isn't an intermission. It's an arc. It's, in theory, a seventh of the eventual final length of the story (since it's supposed to have 7 arcs). And several of them appeared in the main story as early as act 3.

Moreover, it's no coincidence that the trolls are having long entries. Because the actual plot to their arc isn't that important (almost by definition the parts which don't mirror what we already saw one group go through are less-than-relevant), the focus of the arc, other than teaching us more about how the game works, is to establish twelve characters (and yes, that's a lot of people) who are as complex as he can make them, and show us that complexity. Every troll is intentionally a mixture of what would normally be two or three character archetypes. So they'll rack up a lot of tropes.

Plus, the interpersonal relationships between the trolls are as varied as can be (and thanks to squaring, there's a lot more such links). Varied to the point of including murder, betrayal and three instances of someone being crippled and/or blinded by a former friend. The human kids all were good friends, even if Jade kept secrets from John, and the guardians all seem to be comrades; the only relationships which really break the mold are the kid-guardian relationships, of which there's only four.
05:41:39 PM Jul 16th 2010
Should I move Doc Scratch's entry to the Felt folder?
05:43:58 PM Jul 16th 2010
He doesn't really appear to be a member of the Felt, at least not based on what we know yet.
05:53:53 PM Jul 16th 2010
edited by Idiosyncrat
How? The Felt are pool-themed underlings of Lord English. Doc Scratch is a pool-themed underling of Lord English. Sure he wasn't on SS's hitlist, but neither was Snowman.
07:21:55 PM Jul 16th 2010
edited by Majutsukai
"Pool-themed" is not the same as "member of the Felt", underling of English or not. He does not appear to associate with the Felt in any readily apparent way, and is pretty clearly an entirely different class of being. I doubt the members of the Felt even know that this guy exists.

Long story short, I'm not convinced yet that putting him under the Felt section will be meaningful— or really anything more than a technicality.

Also, if you want to get technical like that, Slick did have a picture of Snowman, but he removed it from the vendetta itinerary because he knew it wasn't a good idea to try and kill her. But that's not really relevant because Slick didn't have any way of knowing Scratch existed either, so he wouldn't have appeared on the itinerary even if he were a member.

EDIT: Oh, christ, Enlong. You know what? Do whatever. Fuck.
09:04:42 PM Jul 13th 2010
Don't suppose cT could qualify as The Medic seeing as he fixes up EVERYONE who gets hurt with new robotic body parts? Aradia's whole body, Tavros' legs, Vriska's arm/eye, etc. Even the people he doesn't like much.
01:12:18 AM Jul 17th 2010
To be The Medic you have to... do medicine. He makes prostheses for people, but I think that's. Trying to shoehorn him into a trope where he doesn't really belong.
01:31:50 AM Jul 17th 2010
The trope explicitly lets them use whatever medical technology is available. Prostheses count.
12:37:24 PM Jul 11th 2010
Would it be appropriate to put an entry for The Blank in White Text's entry? I think it kind of works because of the whole blank chat bubble thing, but given that we haven't seen an actual lack of face...
03:50:41 PM Jul 11th 2010
How do you see a lack of face?
05:58:41 PM Jul 11th 2010
Well, it's sort of metaphorical. He lacks any sort of avatar or handle, which ffunction as "faces" in online chat.

Yeah, it's tenuous, I know. That's why I asked about it.
06:05:10 PM Jul 16th 2010
Well predicted.
01:51:56 PM Jul 9th 2010
Okay, apparently some people don't check edit reasons on the history page because this keeps happening, and people have to keep changing it, so I'm going to say it again here.

Use the trolls' names when adding examples, if they have them. There's no reason not to. We didn't keep calling Jade gG after her reveal (or any of the other kids, for that matter); why are the trolls different? I can understand calling Karkat and Terezi cG and gC because they've been around since Act 3 and were only known by their handles until recently, but Sollux? The guy who only had one appearance and a short pesterlog before Act 5? Or even worse, Aradia, whose first appearance was in Act 5? No.

I'm not saying it purely out of irrational annoyance. The abbreviated screensnames are easily confused. A lot of people have trouble with them. For the sake of readability, don't use them if you can help it (unless you're quoting pesterlogs).
10:54:05 AM Jul 11th 2010
If I may introduce a counter-point, we learn the handles before learning the actual names. Someone who hasn't read up to Act 5 yet will have no idea who that Karkat guy is.
12:25:30 PM Jul 11th 2010
Someone who hasn't read to Act 3 would have no clue who Jade is. Should we keep calling her GG?
01:33:43 PM Jul 11th 2010
Let's not turn this into a slippery slope issue. We're not going to call John "Zoosmell Pooplord" just because nobody who read past the first two panels would know him by any other name.
06:14:31 PM Jul 11th 2010
It's not slippery slope, it's a matter of precedent. When we learned Jade's name, we didn't keep gardenGnostic in brackets next to her name. We called her Jade because that was her name! People said it felt weird and would confuse people, but they got used to it.

Also, consider Gamzee: there was a delay of two panels between his first appearance and his naming. Nobody calls him terminallyCapricious, ever. It would actually confuse more people if we called him that!

I propose we remove the screen names from the header things and put notes on them in the body of their respective entries, like what we already have with the kids. Anyone who doesn't know them by name would be like, "Oh yeah, that guy" on seeing them, plus it's consistent with the rest of the article. Is that fair?
09:28:39 PM Jul 11th 2010
I think it's fair! The trolltags are extremely annoying and a bit confusing at times.

And I agree that it's not a slippery slope, because people made the same damn argument about Jade when she was named, and Dave before her! It's not even hypothetical because people have said these things.

The trolls are much more central now, and they're receiving a lot of development, so now that we finally know their actual names, it's a bit silly to keep referring to them the way we did when they were only mysterious voices on the internet.
12:11:17 AM Jul 9th 2010
Do we really need a seperate entry on Aradiasprite? I think Davesprite's distinct enough as a character, but this one's just redundant, I think.
12:36:57 AM Jul 9th 2010
Well, we have a separate entry for kernelsprites, so...
01:27:57 AM Jul 9th 2010
Seems kind of pointless to me.
07:21:47 AM Jul 9th 2010
edited by Idiosyncrat
While we're on the subject, I think if the trolls' sprites are minor enough, we should put them all under the Lususprites entry. Does that sound good to everyone?

EDIT: Oh hey, looks like we're already doing that!
06:22:42 PM Jul 9th 2010
I have to disagree. The trolls kernelsprites should be kept seperate.
01:05:31 AM Jul 10th 2010
We are probably never going to see every one of the troll kernelsprites. It's silly to take up so much space for extremely unimportant characters who we won't see any more than a passing glimpse of.

Aradia and her sprite are the same entity, so there's no need for an Aradiasprite entry.
09:15:21 PM Jul 6th 2010
  • Killer Game Master: She was Tavros's Clouder during the "roleplaying accident," and she populated the campaign with monsters that were far too strong for him to fight fairly. And then she threw him off a cliff when he tried to back out.

Why on earth does this keep getting removed? Can someone explain to me how this doesn't apply to AG?
11:44:22 AM Jun 27th 2010
Does the "Player" of Homestuck as a metafictional construct seperate from the reader count as a character? I typed up a bio and compiled some tropes, but I think adding an entry on a mouse cursor that appears from time to time is something you should try to get some conensus on.
12:00:26 PM Jun 27th 2010
How often does this even come up in the story anymore? I can't see this as being important enough to include, personally.

What are the tropes?
12:50:38 PM Jun 27th 2010
Apart from the tree stump, there isn't much.

01:37:30 PM Jun 27th 2010
edited by Idiosyncrat
Here's what I had typed up:

The Player

A weirdly metafictional representation of the comic's reader-driven aspect who manifests as a large white mouse pointer.

Also, Medinoc, that's not what I was talking about. That was someone who was reading MSPA the webcomic, not playing MSPA the game. But yeah, this was really just too confusing and not all that important anyway. Plus I think maybe half of the tropes I came up up with don't really fit. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure it makes more sense to include this than the Squiddles.
01:47:16 PM Jun 27th 2010
A few of those could probably be included in the Main article as just general tropes.
10:16:59 AM Jun 22nd 2010
Should I go ahead and add images for characters besides the kids?
11:33:59 AM Jun 22nd 2010
04:14:07 PM Jun 22nd 2010
edited by Idiosyncrat
Okay, I did a lot of that, but I think some of the pictures (WQ, HB, and Lususprite in particular) are too tall for their entries. It throws stuff off and makes the page look bad.

I think I should remove some and crop others.
07:51:38 PM Jun 23rd 2010
So I did that too. Is everyone okay with the images as they are now?
05:17:04 PM Jun 24th 2010
So I see somebody put up an image of GA. For the sake of consistency, I'll be replacing that when we get a shot of her in her room.
02:09:16 AM Jun 27th 2010
In light of recent events, um. How are we going to do this for aT. His sprite being kind of a big spoiler and all.

Should I... should I Photoshop it?
02:13:10 AM Jun 27th 2010
I don't think "spoiling" a detail like that is any worse than "spoiling", say, his name. It's not like it was a huge dramatic reveal or anything.
02:14:09 AM Jun 27th 2010
It's not really a spoiler, since it being revealed changes absolutely nothing.
02:42:11 PM Jun 21st 2010
Why are there entries for the kings? They appear for like two seconds before being offed by Jack, have no characterization, and all the tropes listed for them are true for all the sides in general.
05:00:07 PM Jun 21st 2010
Because the fact that they had no importance in the kids' session is no guarantee that they won't be more important in the Trolls' session. Plus, they're such a big part of the whole Sburb mythos that it seems wrong not to have them.
03:15:37 PM Jun 22nd 2010
edited by Fool
If they are important in the trolls' session, then yes, it would make sense to have them, but isn't that jumping the gun a bit? Right now, they're not important at all and there is therefore no reason to include them.

Also, even if they are part of the Sburb mythos, they have no unique tropes. They aren't really characters; they aren't much different from the random pawns in terms of characterization. Combat Tentacles? Chess Motifs? That's true for all the sides in general.

Anyway, if they turn out to be more unique or have more importance later, then I don't see why not to include them, but I think we should hold off until we know for sure whether or not they will be important in the first place.
03:42:53 PM Jun 22nd 2010
I don't think we should cut the kings. There are other entries (Maplehoof, Casey, Matchsticks, Quarters) who have one or two tropes to their name but are there anyway for completeness' sake. If we were to trim the character page we should just cut all the tiny entries out instead of just the kings; I don't care about the first two but chopping the Felt would really bug me for reasons I cannot adequately explain.

Also, the white king will in all likelihood show up later—he was not killed, he abdicated. He is still wandering around Skaia.
05:24:55 AM Jun 23rd 2010
Matchsticks and Quarters are unique characters who have unique tropes. The kings are not.

Also, why do we have entries on Maplehoof and Casey of all people? We should cut those, it's like including random NPC #413 in the character entries. They're extremely minor characters with very few tropes, so it's not worth the space.
08:02:47 PM Jun 23rd 2010
Maplehoof was playable for a day or two in Act 4, and Casey I guess is there because a precedent was established with the entry for Mutie. Maybe we should consolidate them into a single Animal Sidekicks entry?

05:07:55 PM Jun 24th 2010
edited by Idiosyncrat
So I did that too.

Now, I'm wondering, should I merge Skipper Plumbthroat and the Squiddles into one entry? It's kind of like Hella Jeff having his own entry.

Also, maybe we should merge The Felt into one entry in the Midnight Crew folder. If we do that, we should probably keep Snowman and Lord English seperate.

What do you guys think?
05:29:50 PM Jun 24th 2010
I'd keep the Felt and Midnight Crew in separate folders. It would look messy otherwise.

Merging Skipper and Squiddles is ok with me.
06:12:52 PM Jun 24th 2010
Wait wait wait.

Casey should not be lumped in with Mutie and Maplehoof, because Mutie and Maplehoof have left the medium and will likely play no further role in the story. Casey is still waiting back at Rose's house, presumably. Mutie and Maplehoof are two of the characters' "heirlooms", so their roles in the story are pretty wildly divergent from Casey's.
08:25:13 PM Jun 24th 2010
edited by Idiosyncrat
So I guess we'll make an entry for the consorts of the various lands seperate from the animal sidekicks once we've got enough trope for that, which I think will be around when we meet the aligators in LoHaC.

For the moment, however, I have to ask: Where else would we put her? Right now, she's a two-trope character whose purpose in the story is to stand around and look cute. She's an animal sidekick.

On a different subject, I'm probably going to put Serenity in the animal sidekicks entry. Would it be reasonable to put the sentryworms in while I'm at it? Also, I'm not sure "sidekick" was the right choice of words. Would "Animal Companion" be better?
08:59:42 AM Aug 20th 2010
Excuse the double post, but the troll interlude is now almost over and we haven't seen anything of the kings. I think it's safe to merge their entries for now, and unmerge them if WK gets up to any interesting shenanigans on his own.
01:56:26 PM Aug 20th 2010
You know what, do whatever.
12:07:25 PM Jan 8th 2011
So ok, WK's getting up to some interesting shenanigans on his own now. I feel like I should move his entry from Agents and Monarchs to the Exiles page, since he'll probably have significantly more relevance to that group. On the other hand, that might be jumping the gun a bit, given that he's not out of the time capsule just yet.

So what does everyone think about that?
09:19:45 PM Jun 16th 2010
Why does the page history show someone blanking the page?
09:40:43 PM Jun 16th 2010
I don't know, but it didn't actually happen. It's a history page error.
03:38:25 AM Jun 17th 2010
My bad, I accidentally refreshed like three times while working on a big edit.
06:11:36 PM May 30th 2010
edited by Luzerne
Hey, uh, do you guys really think the trolls are evil counterparts? It looked that way in the beginning, but then it started to fall apart further on. They aren't even evil. (Except for gC, maybe.)
06:49:55 PM May 30th 2010
edited by SweetMadness
gallowsCalibrator has been confirmed to be evil, the rest of them may be less obviously malicious, but that doesn't get them off the hook morally speaking. Right now, Evil Counterpart still seems like the best description since they play a somewhat antagonistic role to the protagonists.
11:28:06 AM May 31st 2010
For now, I agree Evil Counterpart is the best description we have, but I wouldn't even say gC was confirmed as evil. I think she just considered a prank - IIRC she expected Dave to go back and change things anyway.
12:50:57 PM Jun 15th 2010
Really, it's the counterpart part that chafes with me. Attributes are shared, yes, but they're too mixed up to establish any 1:1 correspondence in about half the cases so far.
02:01:42 PM Jun 15th 2010
They're pretty much not.
04:12:06 PM Jun 16th 2010
edited by
Okay, I think the thing to do here is to remove the Evil Counterpart entries from the trolls' individual entries and put a little bit in the folder intro about it. I think that thing could use a bit of updating and clean-up anyway.

Though, CG, GC, GA, and maybe TA seem like clear enough analogs to the kids to keep the label. Thoughts?
05:53:41 PM Jun 16th 2010
edited by Luzerne
tA isn't. He talks kind of like Dave, has the same prophet role as Jade, likes computer programming like John. I'm willing to bet he has an interest in sci-fi/fantasy too, which means he's got ties to Rose too. We don't know much about gA at all and we don't know enough about gC's interests to confirm her as a straight Jade analogue (though I never really thought she was much of one to start with).

Square Peg, Round Trope, don't try to shoehorn the trolls into places where they don't belong.

Putting a comparison in the folder intro (or in the trolls' individual intros) works though. There are obvious callbacks to the kids, so I figure we should put that info somewhere. Just not under the Evil Counterpart trope.
09:12:53 PM Jun 16th 2010
I don't think TA is a "prophet". Latest update seems to have confirmed him as a Derse dreamer, and I don't think he's ever said a damn thing about the future. (Not in the way Jade did, anyway.)

The only "clear analogue" here is CG to John, and that's sort of stretching it. Most of the similarities there are just there for the purpose of making the start of Hivebent mirror the start of Homestuck.

GC, GA, and TA are not analogues. Not not not not not not not analogues and I wish people would stop saying that, especially with TA and GC because they're pretty much nothing like Dave and Jade. Like, at all.
03:51:01 AM Jun 17th 2010
Terezi and Jade are both giggly young girls with glasses who are named after gemstones and have a love of stuffed animals. We don't know much about GA, but her verbal stylings are basically Rose's with the sarcasm, one of her defining character traits, removed. One of the first things we learn about TA is that he's an outrageously cool dude who has a verbal rapport with GA.

You can't pigeonhole them into the category of "So-and-so's Evil Twin", but there is no goddamn way they aren't supposed to be similar.
10:37:02 AM Jun 17th 2010
Terezi also doesn't have a parental figure, like Jade. They both live alone in a secluded area. Their hobbies have to do with dressing up in weird costumes (or furries are associated with dressing up in weird costumes anyway, even if Jade doesn't do it). Before she was named, though, there wasn't really any rapport between them. Most mirroring between kids and trolls is superficial, their personalities are completely different.

tA and Karkat's logs are like Dave and John's if the good-natured teasing was replaced with blistering hatred. And if both of them were more serious and socially inept. And if John was a douche. Jury is still up on tA himself, he talks kinda like Dave but that's where the similarities seem to end.

I don't know why anyone is still thinking the trolls could possibly be evil. At this point in time it looks pretty clear to me that they aren't even antagonists.
11:51:20 AM Jun 18th 2010
edited by KingZila
I've just been reading up on Andrew's Formspring, and he apparently didn't design the Trolls to be 'counterparts' of the kids. Make of this what you will.

The quote, beqause I don't know how to link specific Formspring questions:
Some of the trolls share certain personality traits with some of the kids. But there's no formula for it. And it's certainly not as simple as "She's the troll-Jade!" and such. That's not how I view it, or how I planned it.
10:39:30 AM Jun 21st 2010
So should we remove Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain from GA and AT's entries?
07:23:14 AM May 15th 2010
Since the rest of my explanation got cut off, I just deleted The Ophelia and Wham Episode in Rose's entry pending more information in the story about why she's destroying her writings. If she really turns out to be crazy after all, then go ahead and put it back in.
03:30:15 PM May 16th 2010
Agreed, plus I believe that the ones who posted those are grossly exaggerating the event. All she's doing in burning her poetry books, we have no reason to believe she's gone completely off her rocker. (unless it was decided book destroying automatically meant madness when I wasn't looking.)
04:08:16 PM May 16th 2010
Well, I think it was probably more referring to all the things about the Gods of the Furthest Ring telling her that the code must be destroyed— but even given that, I agree that we need to wait and see what happens before we can make any definitive judgments.
06:57:55 AM Apr 15th 2010
Why exactly doesn't Dragon Ascendant count for Jack? Isn't the trope used for Dragons that replace the Big Bad, which is exactly what Jack has done?
10:53:31 AM Apr 15th 2010
He's not the Dragon Ascendant because he offed her himself (making him The Starscream instead). The Dragon Ascendant trope happens when the heroes kill the villain, but then his second-in-command takes his place.
02:11:32 PM Mar 24th 2010
Do we really need the sections on the Light Kingdom and Dark Kingdom characters? If we get some characters in there who aren't people we already have in different outfits, then they might be necessary, but that's not the case. I mean, I was going to add entries on Parcel Mistress and Authority Regulator, but they seemed like absolute dead weight. On the other hand, I'm not sure I like the idea of merging the Jack Noir and Black Queen entries with the Spades Slick and Snowman ones. What do you guys think?
02:24:52 PM Mar 24th 2010
Jack Noir and the Black Queen are separate from the intermission characters. At least for now, anyway. We shouldn't merge them before the link's confirmed.

Also, I think it makes more sense if we get rid of the Exiles section and put WV and AR in the Dark Kingdom and PM in the Light. Jack Noir and the Black Queen don't have exile versions yet. Where would we put them?
04:09:20 PM Mar 24th 2010
Transplanting the Exiles' entries to the Kingdom folders makes the most sense logistically, but I think that their roles as exiles takes precedence over their roles as agents of the kingdoms. I think it might be better to merge the Kingdom folders together and call the result Agents and Monarchs. That way, everyone stays in the folder where they have their most important role, and the White Queen doesn't have a folder all to herself, which is why I brought this up.

(Also, we have seen Noir as an exile. Scurrlious Straggler, remember? I don't think we should make an entry for him, though. He only appeared in two panels, after all.)
09:36:32 PM Apr 7th 2010
Two panels that took place in an alternate timeline, so yeah, we really don't need to add him to the Exiles section.
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