Depends, if the character didn’t have high-quality artwork in their folder, like Elibe’s Eight Legends and Altina, then they should keep it. Otherwise, yeah, it isn’t quite necessary. Also, it should be consistent with the game’s original art style, unless there are much better alternatives.

Yeah. I think we can keep the FEH art for those without proper official art beforehand. Idk about the Robins since they don't have official art from Awakening.

I'm not seeing how a header that big is going to help with organization.

I see... In that case, maybe split to different verses? (Example: Fodlan header, Tellius header, Elibe header)

I actually have made an Elibe characters header a long time ago. Wondering if we could put that in use for the Elibe character pages.

Seems to work and can be expanded to those with multiple pages (Archanea, Jugdral, Tellius, thus each region has their own template).

Sure thing. Right now, the Eight Legends Page needs to be split off from the Blazing Blade index to the general Elibe index because they are still acknowledged in FE6 and all of their weapons appeared in that game.

I don’t see why not.

Soooo... after a year and change of silence: is there a better place to prompt discussion other than "just start making edits like a jerk"?

So...would you mind first listing out all the criteria that would fit this new proposed archetype? All the criteria lumped into a single paragraph makes it a bit hard to read.

Meant to comment on this earlier but forgot, sorry.

Agreeing with dragonfire. Listing out the criteria in bullet point form would be nice.

I just listed out the criterias in bullet points at the main post. Let's try tinkering it to see which are the main criterias and which ones are not, which candidate fits or not...

You know we should probably add the Murdoch, Ephidel, and Gazzak archetype at this point?

Which ones are those?

Gazzak: Starter Villain or the first boss. Almost always a axe wielding bandit of some sort.

Murdoch: Honorable enemy general(class too) who firmly opposes the protagonist.

Ephidel: Big Bad Wannabe, a chessmaster who is manipulated themselves.

• Gazzak was considered as something of an archetype.
• What differentiates Murdoch with Camus?
• Give examples of Ephidel and we can talk.

I'm with ChrisX on needing to know more about what differentiates Murdoch from Camus. A simple difference in class is not enough, in my opinion.

As for the proposed Linde archetype, I take it by "Anima mage," you mean a mage that doesn't use dark magic?

Mages that specialize in the elemental triad of Fire, Thunder or Wind... but rarely or never Wind because that is mostly reserved to Merric. So no Dark. Light is where the Aura spell tends to get transferred to, but in the Archanea games they don't have such distinction so the ability to wield Aura is not counted as a factor, focusing more on Linde's inherent talent in magic from her lineage from Miloah. (Plus, in Jugdral, Light is considered a different school than Anima, while from GBA to Tellius, Light are mostly considered an extension to healers and also on different school)

I think I'm fine with those guidelines for the "Linde Archetype." I'll wait and see what other people say.

Getting rather long to wait. Shall I make the entry after 10-11 hours unless someone objects?

Y'know what, never mind about making the entry immediately. Let's try to iron things out here.

The Linde

The Linde is a youthful unpromoted Anima Mage girl that compliments with the Merric, mostly joining after or with the Merric character or rather late, sometimes overlapping with an Est. Unlike the studious Merric, the Linde is usually more gifted in magical prowess, via either natural talent or lineage, which if they can make offsprings, the lineage of magic will continue. This is not to say that the Linde will always be superior to Merric, it's a matter between hard worker versus the naturally talented, sometimes resulting them being more carefree. Most of the time, the Linde will be acquainted with the Merric, mirroring how she has a crush with him. Sometimes, they are more acquainted with another person but still have links with the Merric.

Another thing that makes the Linde stand out is the element of tragedy. The reason why the Linde joins the Lord's army is often because something horrible has happened to their close relative or family, mostly being killed by the bad guys. This makes them joining the good guys' army feel more personal in them. However, they often mask their sadness with a strong and plucky front though there are times that it would crack and show a vulnerable side temporarily. It kind of sucks to be a young Anima Mage girl when you're in the Fire Emblem universe.

• Black Magician Girl: They're young girls with the gift of magic.
• Brilliant, but Lazy: Downplayed. They're not lazy, but due to their talent to magic, some of them can afford to have more carefree personality.
• Child Prodigy: Probably even moreso than the Merric that they need less studies, but able to manifest their magical talent more.
• Magikarp Power: Though not as much as Est characters, a Linde can come a bit late when you have already developed your Merric, but they have a chance to grow exponentially more powerful than Merrics.
• Parental Abandonment: Most of their parents are dead usually by the hands of the bad guys.:
  • Linde's father Miloah was murdered by Gharnef.
  • Tine's mother Tailtiu (or Linda's mother Ethnia) was tortured and driven to death in depression by Hilda.
  • Miranda's whole family and relatives were slaughtered by the Freege army.
  • Lilina's father Hector was killed by Zephiel's army.
  • Nino's original family was killed by both Nergal and Sonia, and later her new foster family the Black Fang was completely ruined and destroyed by them.
  • Katarina's parents were killed by bandits, and then her other foster families die one by one by her own foster mother, who was brainwashed by Gharnef.
• Stepford Smiler: They mostly put up a strong front, but hid an anguish about losing a loved one.
• You Killed My Father: Often times, the murderer of their parents are amongst the enemy ranks and they have a chance to exact direct retribution for it.

Reasons why other mages did not make the cut (You can argue whether they should make the cut or not):

• Sophia: Is a dark mage (Lilina being moved here would make Raigh take her spot as Binding Blade's dark-type Merric, and Raigh is capable of supporting Sophia).
• Lute & Ilyana: Didn't have a tragedy. In addition, Ilyana was at most standalone without any default friends (while Lute has Artur, but somehow she's considered a Merric instead of him)
• Miriel & Orochi: Are older ladies.
• Odin: Despite fitting quite a lot (lost his mother from Grima, hiding behind a Large Ham attitude, quickly develops talent on magic despite being a former swordsman), he's a guy. Also, a dark mage.
• Ophelia: Is a dark mage (though in Fates, Dark Mage can cast Anima spells). And only has a dead father when it's DLC time.

Any opinions?

I've been wanting that for quite a while. Should we have all the Archetypes on one page?

Yes.

Good part of the archetypes is fandom-created. If i am not mistaken, the only archetypes with some official confirmation are the Jagen and the Lord(and, apparently, Titania is considered a Jagen by them- in other words, the division between the Jagens and Oifeys is probably fanon-created).

The thing is that all they do exist as Recurring Elements. They can be very specific.

I personally would just split off the Character Classes into their own page.

Well, with how the fandom did things, the Jagen is essentially a supertrope (to use TV Tropes terms) with Oifey and Eyvel being essentially subtropes. It is also, in addition to the Lord, the most iconic of the archetypes and it's one of the few FE archetypes that have been extensively experimented with over the years, having the characters of the archetype get replaced with stronger units eventually, last well into the endgame (and then some), or do something else with it entirely, and part of that is that the archetype is one that just about always favor the player (having something that can undeniably solve your problems at a point where the player is at their most weak).

Even some other commonly thrown-around archetypes by fans essentially feel like variants or extensions of the Jagen (Wendell, which isn't on the page, and Gotoh).

EDIT: Well, either way, the archetypes or the classes (or maybe both) have to go to a subpage.

I keep going to rewrite that section but also keep stopping due to not being satisfied.

I think the important parts are:

• Young magical prodigy.
• Associated with Wind magic somehow.

Not sure about what to about the girl version, though I think it's definitely a thing.

How about having them fit two or more of these guidelines:

1. Be a wind magic user (or have an affinity, or start with wind magic). 2. Be a young boy or a teenager. 3. Be under the tutelage of a more experienced magic user. Ideally, with the implication that they will pass up their mentor in due time due to either possessing a gift for it or otherwise.

So... Merric, Artur, Erk, and Ricken. Hayato should probably also be on the list.

I think Hayato counts. He doesn't have Wind magic because of Fates' magic system and isn't under the tutelage of another magic user, but he's from the Wind tribe and fulfills the young prodigy part.

I admit I put Hayato as a maybe due to that. On one hand, he only fulfills the "young prodigy" part, but on the other hand, the fact that he is a Wind Tribe member has to be a nod to the archetype.

Tactician/Grandmaster being under Lord is questionable when Robin is not treated as the Lord unit of Awakening. It's also clearly not a Mage when it has sword access, a (borderline) Lightning Bruiser stat spread, and different support abilities.

Witch is distinct from Dark Mage. It has never been part of the class line, has a different stat spread, and has specific attributes such as Warp and being Always Female that the Dark Mage lacks.

Both are deserving of their own entries.

Perhaps not the Lord unit, but he's pretty much the second main character and the second most important character of Awakening besides Chrom. Tactician/Grandmaster is also more Jack of All Stats than an actual Lightning Bruiser, but with a focus on casting spells (especially when you realize that whenever Robin attacks in cutscenes, he always uses thunder magic, and especially Thoron), and the Tactician/Grandmaster Sword animations are amateurish compared to the casting animations. Also, even with the uniform stat caps, you're practically railroaded into being a mage; Your Interlude version packs a higher Tome rank (+ Robin's signature spell Thoron) compared to the Sword Rank (which means that even if you could have traded between Interlude!Robin and Chrom, you couldn't use that Silver Sword that Chrom's carrying in his inventory anyways).

Thus, it's apparent that the class animations (as well as how the game wants to portray it) moreso portrays a mage that happens to be able to use a sword than someone who is equally skilled in both tools, and this has an influence on "Robin" in subsequent media, like his Super Smash Bros. and Fire Emblem Heroes appearances, and also in Fates and the upcoming Fire Emblem Echoes, where Robin's (and the class's) swordwielding gets less of a focus (in Fates, the Sword/Katana Rank can only go up to B compared to the Tome/Scroll's A rank, and the Magic cap is higher than the Strength cap this time, only surpassed by the Tome/Scroll-specializing Sorcerer and Witch classes), or sometimes isn't there at all (Robin as an Illusory Hero in Shadows of Valentia has the Thoron spell, but nothing else, meaning he is essentially a glorified mage for that entry).

The Witch class meanwhile is essentially a reflavor (or, alongside Exorcist, potentially a precursor) of the Dark Mage class, as a user of dark magic with teleportation skills. It was however enemy only in Gaiden (AND in Shadows of Valentia), and it's only famous for it's ability to let the user teleport themselves, which is either enemy-exclusive (Gaiden, Shadows of Valentia), awailable to teach to anyone (Fates), or turned into an HP consuming spell for certain mages (Shadows of Valentia).

It's even less unique than you'd think considering they actually have a male counterpart in the Exorcist which debuted at the same time and in the same game as them, being a similiar dabbler in dark magic who, while they don't warp themselves anywhere, summons monster units which is something the Witch cannot do. And both the Exorcist and the Witch are associated with Judah's take on the Religion of Duma.

However, it doesn't stop there. Gaiden has the Arcanist class, essentially the Sorcerer class under a different name (or practically being that class's precursor) which, you guessed it, is enemy-only and unisex. And the class is used to portray the lower-ranking cultists affiliated with Judah's variant of the Religion of Duma. Thus, that class can essentially be seen as a lower-tier class to both the Exorcist and the Witch class in both Gaiden and Echoes, which ties the Witch class to the Dark Mage class tree.

Robin may be the second main character, but he's still not the Lord; I'm pretty sure using Robin is entirely optional while you're stuck with Chrom. Plus the Lord class section is super bloated anyway.

Just because you're "railroaded" into functionally being a Mage doesn't mean Tactician/Grandmaster is a Mage. It still has swords and a passable Strength stat when Mage doesn't and is still treated as a separate class family. Animations and what the game gives you in the Interlude are irrelevant, especially since the game makes your Tome Rank higher in the Interlude for pragmatic and A Taste of Power reasons.

Smash and Fates do emphasize Robin's spellcasting, but they both still give Robin his sword (again, Mage can't use a sword). In Heroes everybody is stuck with one weapon and it lacks a formal class system so it's honestly meaningless for this discussion.

Something else to note is that Dark Mage is already separate from Mage because it can use a different type of magic and has a slightly different stat spread. Why can't Tactician/Grandmaster also be separate when it has access to a melee weapon (honestly a bigger point of divergence) and a different stat spread?

For Witch: I am admittedly not very familiar with Gaiden's magic stuff, but I believe there is a lack of formal Dark Magic (I think?) and that makes the classification of Arcanist as a proto-Dark Mage questionable. The fact that Witch coexists alongside Dark Mage in Fates as a standalone already shows that it's considered separate. Honestly, it would probably make more sense to change the Witch entry to be about Arcanist, Exorcist, and Witch.

Pretty sure Robin is actually forced into the party in the Interlude, Chapter 23, and Endgame actually, which is more than can be said for Lucina.

Also, if you get a higher tome rank as A Taste of Power reasons, that pretty blatantly associates Robin with magic.

But eh, I don't really care too much.

I was wrong about the Witch though (only one Witch in the entire game use a dark spell, and that's Nuibaba in Echoes), but only in that it'd actually make more sense to tie them with the normal Mage class, as it's a variant of your usual offensive magic user with the capability to teleport (unless you're Marla, Hestia, or Nuibaba). Arcanist and Cantor (Exorcist) are the proto-Dark Mages though: Their offensive spells are Miasma, Mire, and Death, which are all visually Dark Magic. All three classes are still highly associated with Duma, and have enemy-only abilities that make them a real annoyance to you over the course of the game. Indeed, Warp (or Teleportation as it's called in Echoes) is no longer an ability that is exclusive to Witch (nor does every Witch possess the capability to teleport at will).

The reason is because they looked like game titles before, plus it makes it clear the contents are about the multiple games taking place on the continent and sharing casts. (Also the page splitting isn't done yet, hence why Elibe and Tellius remain untouched at the moment.)

Fates is technically one game so it doesn't need a continent moniker, like how the The Scared Stones page isn't labeled Magvel.

I could see that, yeah. I was thinking Kleine was Eremiya's Dark Lady, but I suppose Eremiya herself is Gharnef's Dark Lady

I think the whole archetype is questionable, only Eremiya, Aversa, and Arete really have anything in common besides being the lone female on the enemy side.

Not really. Theres the elements that Chris X pointed out,

1. Prideful, or having a high opinion or of herself.
2. a Bad Boss rather than say Affably Evil
3. Tragically or casually discarded despite her devotion and high ranking.

Those all hold true in all examples. The elements that apply to most but not all are then:

1. Being the "mother" of a recruitable character holds true with Eremiya, Sonia, and Arete. Aversa and Clarissa are also 'siblings' to recruitable characters.
2. Having a Custom Uniform of Sexy holds true for Sonia, Petrine, Aversa, and Arete, and potentially Clarissa though there are few full shots of her costume.
3. Being a mage, or a magical variant of a usual physical class, holds true for Eremiya, Sonia, Petrine, Aversa, and Arete.
4. Brainwashed or otherwise being 'created' by the Big Bad holds true for Eremiya, Clarissa, Sonia, Aversa, and Arete.

What is questionable about this archetype?

• 1. So are many Fire Emblem villains like the Michalis archetype.
• 2. Again, common trait among unsympathetic baddies.
• 3. That only happens to Eremiya/Kleine(by Eremiya in the same game)

• 1. Thats three characters. Clarissa/Kleine was more of a partner then sidekick.
• 2. Petrine wore the typical Daein Paladin garb. Kleine wore normal Female Sniper gear, resembling the generic Female Sniper almost exactly.
• 3. Magic users are common among major enemies.
• 4. Eremiya, Aversa, and Arete were brainwashed. Clarissa had a Freudian Excuse but wasn't brainwashed. Sonia was horrible on her own, and her death is presented as Laser-Guided Karma and The Dog Bites Back. She's more of a Hilda Expy.

I;m trying to think if these characters have any distinguishing features to unify beyond being the 'canon' pairing.

• Caeda for Marth
• Lillina for Roy
• Ninian for Eliwood (or Lyn for Hector on his mode),
• i'm not sure who the most canon pairings for Eirika and Ephraim are beyond themselves. Maybes Innes and Tana. or Seth and Tana.
• Ike doesn't have one, it was implied to be Elincia but he never reciprocated and she ended up with Geoffrey instead. Sothe for Micaiah. The fan reading of Ike and Soren, but there's nothing solid to confirm that's more than close platonic friendship, and he has a blood descendant later.
• Sumia for Chrom, Lucina for default Robin.
• Azura for default Corrin.

I think there will be 'extra perks' when it comes to these 'official pairs'. For instance:

• Earlier in the series, you CANNOT change the outcome of the pair. Caeda will end up with Marth, no questions, you can't change it to Catria, Linde, Tiki, or just pretty much anyone else (even if you kill off Caeda). The same goes to Sigurd and Deirdre (in fact, it's flat out impossible, the plot hinges on their marriage), as well as Leif and Nanna (although they're pairable to anyone else in Genealogy, Thracia 776 sets this pair in stone, if Nanna survive, she WILL end up marrying Leif).
• As more series goes, there will be some 'extra scene' when these people are married, or the plot is tailored heavily that it makes a lot more sense if these characters are paired.
  • Although Roy can marry a lot of girls, only by pairing with Lilina that he will get an extra scene with her before witnessing Guinivere's coronation.
  • There are extra scenes available with Lyn when doing a Hector Mode run, though this goes on regardless if both of them are paired with any other. Eliwood-Ninian, well a lot of the plot would be having an extra punch if Eliwood pairs with Ninian and then... well he accidentally killed her temporarily.
  • Eirika and Ephraim, I really have no idea. However, there is one scene in Ephraim route that Tana comforts him after getting Lyon off the hook and restores him from Heroic BSoD. This might be a sign about Tana, but what bars this is the Eirika version of the scene. She didn't converse with Innes, but with L'arachel instead.
  • While Elincia was a Red Herring and there's the fan reading for Soren, he does enjoy one perk if they're paired: An extra support scene where you had to go out of the way to make it happen where Soren sobs on Ike's shoulders, and also changes his ending for a happier one. So while they don't 'end up together', he came close enough with the perks of a 'main heroine'
  • Sumia is the only girl to appear in a cutscene along with Chrom and is the default 'marriage option' unless the player goes really deliberate. I have no idea why Lucina is considered the default for Robin.
  • Azura is the only character whose support with Corrin changes depending on the route they took, something that can be said more than the other characters who join in every routes.

It's also worth noting that if Official Couple happens in a pairable game, the official couple has the quickest lover rate increase.

What do you think?

Per the increasingly lengthy note about Female Robin vs Sumia in the article, can I submit that for sake of the page we just stick with default? As in, Default Robin is male (default option if you don't customize at all, the same design appears in Smash, amiibo, in Fates, and so far in Heroes) so we should treat the default/canon option as F!Robin doesn't exist. Otherwise we'd have to figure out who F!Corrin's love interest is also. And she technically is more canon than F!Robin is (at least for Conquest, and that some version of her had to exist to create M!Kana in Heirs of Fate)

Forrest is a Beautiful Priest (Looks like a girl, is constantly mistaken for a girl, has long blond hair, is of a support class, all three check out)

Elise is Maria because she is not explicitly captured, but restrained against her will, (Nohr Castle with Garon, whom she runs away from) she's also a troubadour. She joins later that Sakura (lena) in Revelations (The True Path), and she's noble (princess of Nohr).

Sakura is Lena because she joins first (in Revelations, the true path) is on foot, and is a priestess (part of the faith, in addition to being a noble)

Conquest and Birthright are both like half games, who don't give you all the archetypes. In revelations where you get almost every character, the archetypes become clearer.

The important thing about Forrest is that he's male, but has a usually female class and looks like a female. (Beautiful Priest) Everything is kinda incidental. The vast majority of the children units are either under attack or captured somehow so that doesn't make him stand out. He's nobility because he's Leo's son, which is relevant in Heirs of Fate because he has to take up his fathers legendary weapon.

Well, that makes a bit sense. I thought she didn't count even in Revelations because she broke out on her own. Most Marias that were mentioned need help from others to be broken out, mostly by someone in your army. Maria, Nanna, Priscilla and Mist by your army, Clarine by Rutger and Maribelle by Ricken. On the contrary, Elise broke out on her own, whereas Forrest needed your army to be bailed out, and... yes, he does stand out in a way compared to other children: While most other children at least have fighting capabilities before being rescued (and those who don't, they stay out of the map like hiding in a village before they can start fighting)... Forrest is stripped from any weapons during his recruitment map and then you can't even convince him to give him weapons and make him start fighting back (yes, really, Leo can't even talk to him in the map).

I mean, your explanation does make sense (though it's preferable if you can explain that in edit reason), but it does open up more questions. Would appreciate it if you reply back.

And if Revelations is to be counted... well that MIGHT make both Arthur and Charlotte kind of Bord and Cord, because they're recruited in the same map (remember very long explanation that was eventually removed? I'll happily give it out if you are curious.)

The only thing they have going is that they're axe fighters in the same map. They don't even join together, you could recruit one and kill the other.

They don't have the stat distribution.

They don't know each other

They aren't Red Oni, Blue Oni, or Veteran and Rookie

Yeah, um about that, there's also this oddity amongst the Bord and Cord entry: Boyd and Nolan

• They don't join together either. Boyd is available on both games, Nolan only in Radiant Dawn. Boyd is in Ike's merc team, Nolan in Dawn Brigade. Yeah, this is actually an even more deviation than Arthur-Charlotte.
• This, in addition, made them stranger to each others (as in, Boyd is from Crimea, Nolan is from Daein). Heck, even if it isn't that much, both Arthur and Charlotte at least ARE from Nohr, so they would've known each other a little more than Boyd and Nolan (but still less than the original Bord and Cord)
  • In addition, if you look at how they are recruited in Revelations, there's another link. The only way you can recruit Charlotte in that route is to have Elise, Arthur's liege, talk to her.
• Stat distribution is one thing that Boyd and Nolan have more accurately. No contest on this. (It's just one better in STR, one better in SPD, right?)
• Veteran - Rookie... Yes, Boyd and Nolan have that kind of dynamic even if they're on different topics (although Boyd was only Rookie in Path of Radiance, and in a sense, he's actually more Veteran to Ike in the beginning. By Radiant Dawn, I wouldn't call him or any other Greil Mercs, except the obviously younger ones like Mist and Rolf, rookies). But I just thought that the whole 'Sibling Retainer-Non Retainer' thing in Fates is another way to say this. Could be wrong about the correlation between the Vet/Rookie, but maybe this is something to investigate.
  • Actually, if you're saying 'Veteran-Rookie' dynamic, actually Haar-Jill would fit the bill better than Boyd-Nolan... but they don't count to the archetype because they're Wyvern Riders. Just saying.

So it's okay if Arthur-Charlotte didn't make it, but in compensation, maybe you want to take a closer look on Boyd-Nolan and see if they also fit. I'm fine with any answers.

Regarding archetypes, wouldn't Felicia/Jakob be Oifey since they are pre-promoted (though they gain EXP the same as unpromoted), have good growths, and serve the main character (even lover for their respective opposite gender).

The difference in my mind between Arthur-Charlotte and Boyd-Nolan is that there's a very specific thing you can point to with Boyd and Nolan as the one reason they don't fit, or the one non traditional thing going on. And then the rest of it is in line with their predecessors. Namely, they don't know each other so they don't join at the same time. But they have the personalities, and stats, so you can make a case for them.

Arthur-Charlotte, everything is non traditional. They don't know each other, they don't have the personalities, they don't have the stats. The only thing you can swing is that in Revelations they join in the same chapter.

Regarding Felicia/Jakob, they kinda do fit the Oifey. I'm not opposed to it.

Wait a sec, I don't get what you mean about "they don't know each other so they don't join at the same time". You mean 'If they don't know each other, they can't join at the same time, but if they know each other, they CAN join at the same time'? ... I thought the core of that one rule is "They must know each other AND (not OR) join at the same time."

This is why I thought Boyd and Nolan violated this one because they don't know each other, they don't join in the same time (false and false do not make a true), and even if they don't know each other more personally, Arthur and Charlotte has one thing in common together: They fight under the banner of Nohr. I thought that for the Tellius guys to be on their level, then either Boyd needed to be from Daein, or Nolan needed to be from Crimea (and to fit them better to the original Bord and Cord, then either Boyd in the Dawn Brigade, or Nolan in the Greil Mercs). But alas, they don't.

I probably forgot to explore this further before, but the Veteran-Rookie in Fates can also be inferred with 'is this guy serving a Royal Sibling or not?' Those who do will look like the Veterans and those who don't, 'rookies'. Of course, probably you would think it's a bull statement, and the more 'proper' Vet-Rookie is when you compare the two retainers of a royal sibling (if it's Arthur, he'd have to be compared with Effie; then there's also Saizo-Kagero, Azama-Setsuna, Laslow-Peri, etc)

Personalities, well... I would say that they could fit, but you would probably just brush it off with 'not very obvious'. But OK, I'll bite. Rather than saying how much they fit to the archetype, just say how much they fit to the trope Red Oni, Blue Oni:

• First, Arthur. On the outside, he's a bombastic person fighting for justice. But on the inside, he's very down to earth and genuinely compassionate. So on the outside, he might look like he's the Red Oni, but deep down he's Blue Oni.
• Second, Charlotte. She also has a double-facet in her personality. On the outside, she's a sweetie and 'fragile cutie'. But on the inside... she's crude and foul-mouthed and more prone to anger outburst. So on the outside, she's attempting to be the Blue Oni, while on the inside, she's a complete Red Oni.
  • Now put both of them together.... so on the outside, they ARE Red Oni, Blue Oni, but on the inside, they're just switching colors.

Now you can make your case. Try to point out why they don't fit... and beyond that, how it should fit. You can use the original Bord and Cord for reference.

Like I said, the only thing they don't fit is the stats. But maybe that's just me, I know you have differing opinion, so I'd like to hear yours.

Sorry if i was unclear. I'm just saying that if they don't know each other than it follows that they don't join at the same time. I don't think there's a hard rule on this though.

Dorcas for instance joins in Lyn's mode in Blazing Sword, and essentially stays throughout because he rejoins in the first chapter of Eliwood mode alongside Bartre. But he shows up solo as part of a different army.

Anyway we're in agreement about Boyd and Nolan on this one. The don't know each other, and they don't join at the same time. Those points are their major subversion.

With Arthur-Charlotte they don't know each other, and they join in the same chapter but not under the same circumstances. So they subvert this too, even if they're a little bit closer.

Just because they're from the same country here I personally don't feel is too compelling. There are only 2 countries in Fates (technically 3 but no one really identifies with Valla) which makes it pretty much the most limited in the entire series as far as where people could even possibly be from.

You could make a similarly dubious argument to say that Boyd and Nolan are "rivals" in the context of the ragtag Crimean Greil Mercenaries vs the ragtag Daein Dawn Brigade. They both have one big axe fighter, just as they both have a myrmidon (Mia vs Edward) a Beorc and Branded duo (Ike-Soren vs. Micaiah-Sothe) or other vague similarities you can draw between them.

Your words not mine. Implying veteran status from the serving of a retainer holds no water. There are plenty of vets that do and vets that don't. That's prestige, not experience. In their supports Charlotte is a better fighter than Arthur. He comments about how she keeps saving him from enemies.

I think you're misunderstanding Red Oni, Blue Oni here. There's nothing that says that Red Oni's like Arthur aren't compassionate or down to earth. They are extroverted- 'bombastic.' You can be super extroverted, and super compassionate. You can be super bombastic about how compassionate you are.

Further Charlotte is aggressively flirtatious. Her sweetie facade goes out of her way to make herself visible, and the center of attention. She's flaunting, not keeping to herself. Then her true face is aggressively crude. So she changes from one type of Red, to another type of Red.

And finally their support conversation is not Red Oni Blue Oni at all. Read it and judge for yourself. The dynamic is one person is a liar, and the other is super trusting and gullible. Truth and lies has nothing to do with Red vs Blue. That's more Black vs White. And that's pretty compelling proof because it actually shows you what their dynamic is, so you don't need an abstract what it might be based on their personalities.

Arthur's bombast would need to be countered by stoicism. Charlottes flaunting would have to be countered by modesty. One would have to be loud while the other is quiet. Two different kinds of loud is just two different kinds of loud.

Like I said, if I'm proven wrong with Arthur and Charlotte, I'm fine with them not being included. You presented your case well, so I'm in agreement on not re-adding that. (I had thought as long as their personality contrasted, it's fine, it didn't have to be a Red Oni, Blue Oni kind of contrast)

But that'll leave Boyd and Nolan being the oddball there and there's something that doesn't sit well in me. Maybe if there is another pair of Bord and Cord in a future game that has similar dynamic with both of them, then maybe they could officially put into the archetype...

Because if it's what you said "they don't know each other then it follows that they don't join at the same time."... then that would apply to the majority of Axe users, including Arthur and Charlotte (or just pick anyone else if their game has two axe users. Garcia and Dozla from Sacred Stones came to mind.) That was like 'looking for people who do not fit the archetype' and it actually damaged the credibility of Boyd and Nolan... That's why that statement, along with how it's confusing to pin down which one is the veteran and which one is the rookie is why I think maybe we shouldn't force Boyd and Nolan into that... That's just me, though. You think?

well the way i think about it is this. You can look for anyone to be part of an archetype, and then see how many of the beats they hit. and if someone else hits those more closely.

You could start on Garcia and Dozla. And say hey he's cool, he's hot. They both use axes. They could be potential candidates. And then you look at their relationships. Well they don't join at the same time, one is early game, the other is more mid to late game. And further Dozla is part of a trio with a thief and a troubador. Garcia is part of a duo with another axe user. So now Dozla's out, but look at Garcia and Ross. Axes, cool and hot, personal relationship, veteran rookie, stats check out. This is a classic Bord and Cord. Its a new take because they're father and son, instead of friends. And they aren't in service to an Ogma or another person. But otherwise they hit a lot of the beats unamiguously.

Same thing with like Forrest and Elise. Forrest hits some of the beats for Maria, but Elise hits more of them, so you give it to Elise. Forrest also hits almost all of the beats for Beautiful Priest, so you slot him there.

So then when you get to Boyd and Largo for instance. Axe users. But they're both two different kinds of hot, so they fail. They don't know each other. They don't have the stats. One is early game, the other is late game. Boyd and Largo fail on almost everything except that they both use axes. And that's not notable.

Boyd and Nolan. Axe users. Hot and cool. Red flag because they don't know each other. But of their respective campaigns, they're both early game. They have the stats. Of their respective campaigns Boyd is a Rookie in the Mercenaries (he only has seniority over Ike) Nolan is a veteran of the Brigade (he founded the group). In a lot of ways they're kind of like Ross and Garcia if they weren't related. And since not being related is the major sin here, at least in my book I give it a pass.

Arthur and Charlotte. Axe users. Points off for two different kinds of hot. Red flag for don't know each other. In the true campaign (revelations) they do join at the same time. Points off again because they don't have the stats. So really here, they're just two people of the same class that join in the same chapter. But that could happen with any class if they don't fit any of the other beats, don't have the stats.

TLDR

As I see it Boyd and Nolan are just a steps away from being like Ross and Garcia. So its clear theyre rooted in Bord and Cord.

Forrest is only maybe 2 steps away from being like a Maria which might be fine, but Elise is only 1 step so the root is stronger for her. Especially when he's 1 step away from a traditional Beautiful Priest.

Arthur-Charlotte are like 4 steps away from any previous Bord and Cord. So that feels a little far to me, unless we get another pair that's similar to them.

Alright, I just arranged them into folders. That should make it easier to look for the specific game.