Characters Fire Emblem Discussion

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mariovsonic999
Topic
02:38:23 PM May 25th 2017
edited by mariovsonic999
Since the character page is going to be too long, we may need to make a new page to make it less cluttered. I think we could have Archetype be in a separate page.
Folt
01:09:01 AM May 26th 2017
I've been wanting that for quite a while. Should we have all the Archetypes on one page?
KomasanS
Topic
10:57:05 AM Apr 16th 2017
Should Lukas and Forsyth from Shadows of Valentia add into Cain and Abel Archetypes via Forsyth's Adaptation Dye-Job?
Folt
Topic
11:17:35 AM Apr 15th 2017
I think the Tactician/Grandmaster and Witch entries should go under the Lord/Mage (at least one of the two) and Dark Mage entries rather than having their own entries on the main character page, as the Tactician/Grandmaster line is essentially a Mage with more balanced stats and the option to use swords, while Witches are just female Dark Mages who can teleport and are only really playable in Fates (if you use a DLC item to class change into the Witch class).
Karxrida
01:03:52 PM Apr 15th 2017
edited by Karxrida
Tactician/Grandmaster being under Lord is questionable when Robin is not treated as the Lord unit of Awakening. It's also clearly not a Mage when it has sword access, a (borderline) Lightning Bruiser stat spread, and different support abilities.

Witch is distinct from Dark Mage. It has never been part of the class line, has a different stat spread, and has specific attributes such as Warp and being Always Female that the Dark Mage lacks.

Both are deserving of their own entries.
Folt
03:04:59 PM Apr 15th 2017
Perhaps not the Lord unit, but he's pretty much the second main character and the second most important character of Awakening besides Chrom. Tactician/Grandmaster is also more Jack-of-All-Stats than an actual Lightning Bruiser, but with a focus on casting spells (especially when you realize that whenever Robin attacks in cutscenes, he always uses thunder magic, and especially Thoron), and the Tactician/Grandmaster Sword animations are amateurish compared to the casting animations. Also, even with the uniform stat caps, you're practically railroaded into being a mage; Your Interlude version packs a higher Tome rank (+ Robin's signature spell Thoron) compared to the Sword Rank (which means that even if you could have traded between Interlude!Robin and Chrom, you couldn't use that Silver Sword that Chrom's carrying in his inventory anyways).

Thus, it's apparent that the class animations (as well as how the game wants to portray it) moreso portrays a mage that happens to be able to use a sword than someone who is equally skilled in both tools, and this has an influence on "Robin" in subsequent media, like his Super Smash Bros. and Fire Emblem Heroes appearances, and also in Fates and the upcoming Fire Emblem Echoes, where Robin's (and the class's) swordwielding gets less of a focus (in Fates, the Sword/Katana Rank can only go up to B compared to the Tome/Scroll's A rank, and the Magic cap is higher than the Strength cap this time, only surpassed by the Tome/Scroll-specializing Sorcerer and Witch classes), or sometimes isn't there at all (Robin as an Illusory Hero in Shadows of Valentia has the Thoron spell, but nothing else, meaning he is essentially a glorified mage for that entry).

The Witch class meanwhile is essentially a reflavor (or, alongside Exorcist, potentially a precursor) of the Dark Mage class, as a user of dark magic with teleportation skills. It was however enemy only in Gaiden (AND in Shadows of Valentia), and it's only famous for it's ability to let the user teleport themselves, which is either enemy-exclusive (Gaiden, Shadows of Valentia), awailable to teach to anyone (Fates), or turned into an HP consuming spell for certain mages (Shadows of Valentia).

It's even less unique than you'd think considering they actually have a male counterpart in the Exorcist which debuted at the same time and in the same game as them, being a similiar dabbler in dark magic who, while they don't warp themselves anywhere, summons monster units which is something the Witch cannot do. And both the Exorcist and the Witch are associated with Judah's take on the Religion of Duma.

However, it doesn't stop there. Gaiden has the Arcanist class, essentially the Sorcerer class under a different name (or practically being that class's precursor) which, you guessed it, is enemy-only and unisex. And the class is used to portray the lower-ranking cultists affiliated with Judah's variant of the Religion of Duma. Thus, that class can essentially be seen as a lower-tier class to both the Exorcist and the Witch class in both Gaiden and Echoes, which ties the Witch class to the Dark Mage class tree.
Karxrida
08:04:27 PM Apr 15th 2017
edited by Karxrida
Robin may be the second main character, but he's still not the Lord; I'm pretty sure using Robin is entirely optional while you're stuck with Chrom. Plus the Lord class section is super bloated anyway.

Just because you're "railroaded" into functionally being a Mage doesn't mean Tactician/Grandmaster is a Mage. It still has swords and a passable Strength stat when Mage doesn't and is still treated as a separate class family. Animations and what the game gives you in the Interlude are irrelevant, especially since the game makes your Tome Rank higher in the Interlude for pragmatic and A Taste of Power reasons.

Smash and Fates do emphasize Robin's spellcasting, but they both still give Robin his sword (again, Mage can't use a sword). In Heroes everybody is stuck with one weapon and it lacks a formal class system so it's honestly meaningless for this discussion.

Something else to note is that Dark Mage is already separate from Mage because it can use a different type of magic and has a slightly different stat spread. Why can't Tactician/Grandmaster also be separate when it has access to a melee weapon (honestly a bigger point of divergence) and a different stat spread?

For Witch: I am admittedly not very familiar with Gaiden's magic stuff, but I believe there is a lack of formal Dark Magic (I think?) and that makes the classification of Arcanist as a proto-Dark Mage questionable. The fact that Witch coexists alongside Dark Mage in Fates as a standalone already shows that it's considered separate. Honestly, it would probably make more sense to change the Witch entry to be about Arcanist, Exorcist, and Witch.
Folt
05:10:51 PM May 24th 2017
Pretty sure Robin is actually forced into the party in the Interlude, Chapter 23, and Endgame actually, which is more than can be said for Lucina.

Also, if you get a higher tome rank as A Taste of Power reasons, that pretty blatantly associates Robin with magic.

But eh, I don't really care too much.

I was wrong about the Witch though (only one Witch in the entire game use a dark spell, and that's Nuibaba in Echoes), but only in that it'd actually make more sense to tie them with the normal Mage class, as it's a variant of your usual offensive magic user with the capability to teleport (unless you're Marla, Hestia, or Nuibaba). Arcanist and Cantor (Exorcist) are the proto-Dark Mages though: Their offensive spells are Miasma, Mire, and Death, which are all visually Dark Magic. All three classes are still highly associated with Duma, and have enemy-only abilities that make them a real annoyance to you over the course of the game. Indeed, Warp (or Teleportation as it's called in Echoes) is no longer an ability that is exclusive to Witch (nor does every Witch possess the capability to teleport at will).
RangerJackWalker
Topic
08:09:39 PM Mar 9th 2017
@Karxrida Is there a particular reason you've renamed 'Fire Emblem Archanea' to 'Continent of Archanea' and 'Fire Emblem Jugdral' to 'Continent of Jugdral' but not the rest? As it stands, there's inconsistency. And it's an inconsistency that cannot be resolved as Fates's continent doesn't have a name.
Karxrida
08:19:18 PM Mar 9th 2017
edited by Karxrida
The reason is because they looked like game titles before, plus it makes it clear the contents are about the multiple games taking place on the continent and sharing casts. (Also the page splitting isn't done yet, hence why Elibe and Tellius remain untouched at the moment.)

Fates is technically one game so it doesn't need a continent moniker, like how the The Scared Stones page isn't labeled Magvel.
ChrisX
Topic
12:28:37 AM Feb 18th 2017
I have one archetype that may be up for discussions or grab. Let me know what you think on this:

The Snob Princess

You'll usually find amongst the ranks of your army a female characters that are of nobility (or claims to be)... and is a complete snob. They criticize those with lesser status and can be very haughty in the way they talk, like having super high standards and such. However, if there's one thing they have in common, they are not an Upper-Class Twit. They are just as dedicated in stopping the forces of evil that your army faces, and most of the time, their haughtiness came off as them being Jerk with a Heart of Gold. As the good book says, don't judge a book by its cover, this snobbish princess may be one of the most loyal friends you can ever have. Tends to be a class that has a healing capability, as a tip off that they are just as caring as they are haughty.

Characters on this archetype: Raquesis, Clarine, Serra (subversion: She acts like this archetype, but was just faking), L'Arachel, Maribelle

What do you guys think?
ILikeRobots
Topic
02:24:51 AM Feb 14th 2017
Shouldn't we change the names for the Elibe character pages? The Binding Blade for the sixth game, and The Blazing Blade for the seventh, now that we have officially localized titles? I'm not sure how to do that, so I'm posting this here.
ChrisX
Topic
03:46:11 PM Jan 14th 2017
About the Dark Lady... I think Akaneia's example wouldn't be Kleine, but instead her mistress, Eremiya. High opinion of herself? Well yes, she is a Tyke Bomb-raising woman that treats anyone who failed her to be disposable tools. Sadistic? Previous sentence kind of confirmed it even if she's serene about it. 'Rewarded'? Gharnef restored her memories right before she died, making her remember that she used to be a genuinely sweet woman until everything went on a downward spiral for her and she got brainwashed by Gharnef himself, making her death very full of anguish and losing all her sense of self-worth...

Well yes, I suppose she fits better. But tell me what you think.
acrobox
04:49:48 PM Jan 22nd 2017
I could see that, yeah. I was thinking Kleine was Eremiya's Dark Lady, but I suppose Eremiya herself is Gharnef's Dark Lady
Monsund
12:57:48 PM Jan 25th 2017
I think the whole archetype is questionable, only Eremiya, Aversa, and Arete really have anything in common besides being the lone female on the enemy side.
acrobox
01:20:54 AM Jan 27th 2017
edited by acrobox
Not really. Theres the elements that Chris X pointed out,

  1. Prideful, or having a high opinion or of herself.
  2. a Bad Boss rather than say Affably Evil
  3. Tragically or casually discarded despite her devotion and high ranking.

Those all hold true in all examples. The elements that apply to most but not all are then:

  1. Being the "mother" of a recruitable character holds true with Eremiya, Sonia, and Arete. Aversa and Clarissa are also 'siblings' to recruitable characters.
  2. Having a Custom Uniform of Sexy holds true for Sonia, Petrine, Aversa, and Arete, and potentially Clarissa though there are few full shots of her costume.
  3. Being a mage, or a magical variant of a usual physical class, holds true for Eremiya, Sonia, Petrine, Aversa, and Arete.
  4. Brainwashed or otherwise being 'created' by the Big Bad holds true for Eremiya, Clarissa, Sonia, Aversa, and Arete.

What is questionable about this archetype?
Monsund
12:30:17 AM Jan 28th 2017
edited by Monsund
  • 1. So are many Fire Emblem villains like the Michalis archetype.
  • 2. Again, common trait among unsympathetic baddies.
  • 3. That only happens to Eremiya/Kleine(by Eremiya in the same game)

  • 1. Thats three characters. Clarissa/Kleine was more of a partner then sidekick.
  • 2. Petrine wore the typical Daein Paladin garb. Kleine wore normal Female Sniper gear, resembling the generic Female Sniper almost exactly.
  • 3. Magic users are common among major enemies.
  • 4. Eremiya, Aversa, and Arete were brainwashed. Clarissa had a Freudian Excuse but wasn't brainwashed. Sonia was horrible on her own, and her death is presented as Laser-Guided Karma and The Dog Bites Back. She's more of a Hilda Expy.
Monsund
Topic
04:45:30 PM Nov 18th 2016
On the Wyvern thing, while the class itself is still called Dragon Knight in the Archanea games, the species of the Dragon mount is indeed called Wyvern in Japanese as shown in Mystery of the Emblem, and its remake.

Its still called Dragon Knight because Wyverns are a species of Dragon.

The Wyvern Knight in FE 8 is an explicit reference to the Wyvern mounts of FE 3.
ChrisX
Topic
05:08:29 PM Aug 22nd 2016
I was thinking if Love Interest can be put as an Archetype similar to the Beautiful Priest or the Casanova Wannabe. This is my take:

The Love Interest / Official Couple

Complimenting with the Lord, usually there is one of your units that happens to be close with your Lord. VERY close, that they may be Childhood Friends or something else. By the end of the game, they would end up getting married to seal the Happy Ending. Or sorts (It's complicated, especially when it comes to the Jugdral saga). This is usually in the older games. However, in the more modern games, as freedom was more given to the player to pair the Lord with whoever they damn pleases, these characters would usually end up being the Implied Love Interest. The game might 'encourage' the player to pair these characters with the Lord, but in the end, the final say is in the player's hands: Follow the implications/suggestions or not.

The class is rarely the same in each passing games.

What do you say on this?
acrobox
09:03:24 PM Aug 24th 2016
edited by acrobox
I;m trying to think if these characters have any distinguishing features to unify beyond being the 'canon' pairing.

  • Caeda for Marth
  • Lillina for Roy
  • Ninian for Eliwood (or Lyn for Hector on his mode),
  • i'm not sure who the most canon pairings for Eirika and Ephraim are beyond themselves. Maybes Innes and Tana. or Seth and Tana.
  • Ike doesn't have one, it was implied to be Elincia but he never reciprocated and she ended up with Geoffrey instead. Sothe for Micaiah. The fan reading of Ike and Soren, but there's nothing solid to confirm that's more than close platonic friendship, and he has a blood descendant later.
  • Sumia for Chrom, Lucina for default Robin.
  • Azura for default Corrin.
ChrisX
07:30:56 PM Sep 18th 2016
edited by ChrisX
I think there will be 'extra perks' when it comes to these 'official pairs'. For instance:
  • Earlier in the series, you CANNOT change the outcome of the pair. Caeda will end up with Marth, no questions, you can't change it to Catria, Linde, Tiki, or just pretty much anyone else (even if you kill off Caeda). The same goes to Sigurd and Deirdre (in fact, it's flat out impossible, the plot hinges on their marriage), as well as Leif and Nanna (although they're pairable to anyone else in Genealogy, Thracia 776 sets this pair in stone, if Nanna survive, she WILL end up marrying Leif).
  • As more series goes, there will be some 'extra scene' when these people are married, or the plot is tailored heavily that it makes a lot more sense if these characters are paired.
    • Although Roy can marry a lot of girls, only by pairing with Lilina that he will get an extra scene with her before witnessing Guinivere's coronation.
    • There are extra scenes available with Lyn when doing a Hector Mode run, though this goes on regardless if both of them are paired with any other. Eliwood-Ninian, well a lot of the plot would be having an extra punch if Eliwood pairs with Ninian and then... well he accidentally killed her temporarily.
    • Eirika and Ephraim, I really have no idea. However, there is one scene in Ephraim route that Tana comforts him after getting Lyon off the hook and restores him from Heroic B.S.O.D.. This might be a sign about Tana, but what bars this is the Eirika version of the scene. She didn't converse with Innes, but with L'arachel instead.
    • While Elincia was a Red Herring and there's the fan reading for Soren, he does enjoy one perk if they're paired: An extra support scene where you had to go out of the way to make it happen where Soren sobs on Ike's shoulders, and also changes his ending for a happier one. So while they don't 'end up together', he came close enough with the perks of a 'main heroine'
    • Sumia is the only girl to appear in a cutscene along with Chrom and is the default 'marriage option' unless the player goes really deliberate. I have no idea why Lucina is considered the default for Robin.
    • Azura is the only character whose support with Corrin changes depending on the route they took, something that can be said more than the other characters who join in every routes.

It's also worth noting that if Official Couple happens in a pairable game, the official couple has the quickest lover rate increase.

What do you think?
acrobox
04:53:50 PM Jan 22nd 2017
Per the increasingly lengthy note about Female Robin vs Sumia in the article, can I submit that for sake of the page we just stick with default? As in, Default Robin is male (default option if you don't customize at all, the same design appears in Smash, amiibo, in Fates, and so far in Heroes) so we should treat the default/canon option as F!Robin doesn't exist. Otherwise we'd have to figure out who F!Corrin's love interest is also. And she technically is more canon than F!Robin is (at least for Conquest, and that some version of her had to exist to create M!Kana in Heirs of Fate)
ChrisX
Topic
08:17:10 PM Jun 5th 2016
edited by ChrisX
Okay, I'm opening discussions for the Archetypes. Anyone who would like to debate, feel free to post, this is to prevent Flame War. I'll start.

First the Maria archetype. I'm not debating its existence, it was actually pretty good. However... Elise's inclusion there seems a bit too forced: In Conquest, she joins early, violating the rule of 'joins mid-game'. In Revelation, she might fit more as she actually joined Mid-game, but... she's not at all in distress. I thought most Maria are instead captured or in distress until they were rescued then joins on full time? There is one event in Conquest where she's forced to be sidelined, but... that's just one event, and you already recruited her, that is not the same as the other Marias who were sidelined BEFORE you rescued and recruited them. All Elise had in common with the archetype is that she's a Troubadour. Not exactly fitting the archetype.

Now, I once put up an alternative: Forrest. Okay, he's a guy, but let's just look at him and how he actually fits the Maria archetype:
  • His class is Troubadour. Yes.
  • Captured? Yes, his recruitment stage is about rescuing him when he got kidnapped.
  • Is he mid-game? Yes! Leo is available in the middle way of Conquest, and from that you can work on him so he bore Forrest soon. This is even easier in Revelation where Challenges are available, so as soon as you get Leo (he's one of the last guys to join, but that wasn't nearing endgame), you can grind his support then get Forrest mid-game. All in all, he's the LATTER medic than Elise, which fits the 'mid-game healer'
  • Bonus points: Most of these characters are of nobility. Then yes, Forrest qualifies because he's Leo's son.

If anything, Elise is pretty much Nohr's Lena character, not Maria (heck I think Felicia/Jakob fit better, though they're prepromoted, they're your first ground healer before any route splits, you'd be using them more than either Sakura or Elise!). But I just don't get why she was pegged as Maria, when there's Forrest. If Lena can have Rhys as The One Guy, I don't see why Forrest couldn't. (If anyone's referring to the age for Maria and Elise, please note that AGE HAS NO BEARING. Maribelle and Priscilla aren't exactly little girls.)

Feel free to debate!
acrobox
01:24:38 PM Aug 9th 2016
Forrest is a Beautiful Priest (Looks like a girl, is constantly mistaken for a girl, has long blond hair, is of a support class, all three check out)

Elise is Maria because she is not explicitly captured, but restrained against her will, (Nohr Castle with Garon, whom she runs away from) she's also a troubadour. She joins later that Sakura (lena) in Revelations (The True Path), and she's noble (princess of Nohr).

Sakura is Lena because she joins first (in Revelations, the true path) is on foot, and is a priestess (part of the faith, in addition to being a noble)

Conquest and Birthright are both like half games, who don't give you all the archetypes. In revelations where you get almost every character, the archetypes become clearer.

The important thing about Forrest is that he's male, but has a usually female class and looks like a female. (Beautiful Priest) Everything is kinda incidental. The vast majority of the children units are either under attack or captured somehow so that doesn't make him stand out. He's nobility because he's Leo's son, which is relevant in Heirs of Fate because he has to take up his fathers legendary weapon.
ChrisX
06:52:42 PM Aug 9th 2016
edited by ChrisX
Well, that makes a bit sense. I thought she didn't count even in Revelations because she broke out on her own. Most Marias that were mentioned need help from others to be broken out, mostly by someone in your army. Maria, Nanna, Priscilla and Mist by your army, Clarine by Rutger and Maribelle by Ricken. On the contrary, Elise broke out on her own, whereas Forrest needed your army to be bailed out, and... yes, he does stand out in a way compared to other children: While most other children at least have fighting capabilities before being rescued (and those who don't, they stay out of the map like hiding in a village before they can start fighting)... Forrest is stripped from any weapons during his recruitment map and then you can't even convince him to give him weapons and make him start fighting back (yes, really, Leo can't even talk to him in the map).

I mean, your explanation does make sense (though it's preferable if you can explain that in edit reason), but it does open up more questions. Would appreciate it if you reply back.

And if Revelations is to be counted... well that MIGHT make both Arthur and Charlotte kind of Bord and Cord, because they're recruited in the same map (remember very long explanation that was eventually removed? I'll happily give it out if you are curious.)
acrobox
07:52:51 PM Aug 10th 2016
edited by acrobox
The only thing they have going is that they're axe fighters in the same map. They don't even join together, you could recruit one and kill the other.

They don't have the stat distribution.

They don't know each other

They aren't Red Oni, Blue Oni, or Veteran and Rookie
ChrisX
02:29:50 AM Aug 11th 2016
edited by ChrisX
Yeah, um about that, there's also this oddity amongst the Bord and Cord entry: Boyd and Nolan
  • They don't join together either. Boyd is available on both games, Nolan only in Radiant Dawn. Boyd is in Ike's merc team, Nolan in Dawn Brigade. Yeah, this is actually an even more deviation than Arthur-Charlotte.
  • This, in addition, made them stranger to each others (as in, Boyd is from Crimea, Nolan is from Daein). Heck, even if it isn't that much, both Arthur and Charlotte at least ARE from Nohr, so they would've known each other a little more than Boyd and Nolan (but still less than the original Bord and Cord)
    • In addition, if you look at how they are recruited in Revelations, there's another link. The only way you can recruit Charlotte in that route is to have Elise, Arthur's liege, talk to her.
  • Stat distribution is one thing that Boyd and Nolan have more accurately. No contest on this. (It's just one better in STR, one better in SPD, right?)
  • Veteran - Rookie... Yes, Boyd and Nolan have that kind of dynamic even if they're on different topics (although Boyd was only Rookie in Path of Radiance, and in a sense, he's actually more Veteran to Ike in the beginning. By Radiant Dawn, I wouldn't call him or any other Greil Mercs, except the obviously younger ones like Mist and Rolf, rookies). But I just thought that the whole 'Sibling Retainer-Non Retainer' thing in Fates is another way to say this. Could be wrong about the correlation between the Vet/Rookie, but maybe this is something to investigate.
    • Actually, if you're saying 'Veteran-Rookie' dynamic, actually Haar-Jill would fit the bill better than Boyd-Nolan... but they don't count to the archetype because they're Wyvern Riders. Just saying.

So it's okay if Arthur-Charlotte didn't make it, but in compensation, maybe you want to take a closer look on Boyd-Nolan and see if they also fit. I'm fine with any answers.
mariovsonic999
09:40:51 AM Aug 15th 2016
Regarding archetypes, wouldn't Felicia/Jakob be Oifey since they are pre-promoted (though they gain EXP the same as unpromoted), have good growths, and serve the main character (even lover for their respective opposite gender).
acrobox
03:19:44 PM Aug 15th 2016
edited by acrobox
The difference in my mind between Arthur-Charlotte and Boyd-Nolan is that there's a very specific thing you can point to with Boyd and Nolan as the one reason they don't fit, or the one non traditional thing going on. And then the rest of it is in line with their predecessors. Namely, they don't know each other so they don't join at the same time. But they have the personalities, and stats, so you can make a case for them.

Arthur-Charlotte, everything is non traditional. They don't know each other, they don't have the personalities, they don't have the stats. The only thing you can swing is that in Revelations they join in the same chapter.

Regarding Felicia/Jakob, they kinda do fit the Oifey. I'm not opposed to it.
ChrisX
11:39:29 PM Aug 18th 2016
Wait a sec, I don't get what you mean about "they don't know each other so they don't join at the same time". You mean 'If they don't know each other, they can't join at the same time, but if they know each other, they CAN join at the same time'? ... I thought the core of that one rule is "They must know each other AND (not OR) join at the same time."

This is why I thought Boyd and Nolan violated this one because they don't know each other, they don't join in the same time (false and false do not make a true), and even if they don't know each other more personally, Arthur and Charlotte has one thing in common together: They fight under the banner of Nohr. I thought that for the Tellius guys to be on their level, then either Boyd needed to be from Daein, or Nolan needed to be from Crimea (and to fit them better to the original Bord and Cord, then either Boyd in the Dawn Brigade, or Nolan in the Greil Mercs). But alas, they don't.

I probably forgot to explore this further before, but the Veteran-Rookie in Fates can also be inferred with 'is this guy serving a Royal Sibling or not?' Those who do will look like the Veterans and those who don't, 'rookies'. Of course, probably you would think it's a bull statement, and the more 'proper' Vet-Rookie is when you compare the two retainers of a royal sibling (if it's Arthur, he'd have to be compared with Effie; then there's also Saizo-Kagero, Azama-Setsuna, Laslow-Peri, etc)

Personalities, well... I would say that they could fit, but you would probably just brush it off with 'not very obvious'. But OK, I'll bite. Rather than saying how much they fit to the archetype, just say how much they fit to the trope Red Oni, Blue Oni:
  • First, Arthur. On the outside, he's a bombastic person fighting for justice. But on the inside, he's very down to earth and genuinely compassionate. So on the outside, he might look like he's the Red Oni, but deep down he's Blue Oni.
  • Second, Charlotte. She also has a double-facet in her personality. On the outside, she's a sweetie and 'fragile cutie'. But on the inside... she's crude and foul-mouthed and more prone to anger outburst. So on the outside, she's attempting to be the Blue Oni, while on the inside, she's a complete Red Oni.
    • Now put both of them together.... so on the outside, they ARE Red Oni, Blue Oni, but on the inside, they're just switching colors.

Now you can make your case. Try to point out why they don't fit... and beyond that, how it should fit. You can use the original Bord and Cord for reference.

Like I said, the only thing they don't fit is the stats. But maybe that's just me, I know you have differing opinion, so I'd like to hear yours.
acrobox
04:22:50 PM Aug 20th 2016
"they don't know each other so they don't join at the same time". You mean 'If they don't know each other, they can't join at the same time, but if they know each other, they CAN join at the same time'? ... I thought the core of that one rule is "They must know each other AND (not OR) join at the same time."

Sorry if i was unclear. I'm just saying that if they don't know each other than it follows that they don't join at the same time. I don't think there's a hard rule on this though.

Dorcas for instance joins in Lyn's mode in Blazing Sword, and essentially stays throughout because he rejoins in the first chapter of Eliwood mode alongside Bartre. But he shows up solo as part of a different army.

Anyway we're in agreement about Boyd and Nolan on this one. The don't know each other, and they don't join at the same time. Those points are their major subversion.

With Arthur-Charlotte they don't know each other, and they join in the same chapter but not under the same circumstances. So they subvert this too, even if they're a little bit closer.

Just because they're from the same country here I personally don't feel is too compelling. There are only 2 countries in Fates (technically 3 but no one really identifies with Valla) which makes it pretty much the most limited in the entire series as far as where people could even possibly be from.

You could make a similarly dubious argument to say that Boyd and Nolan are "rivals" in the context of the ragtag Crimean Greil Mercenaries vs the ragtag Daein Dawn Brigade. They both have one big axe fighter, just as they both have a myrmidon (Mia vs Edward) a Beorc and Branded duo (Ike-Soren vs. Micaiah-Sothe) or other vague similarities you can draw between them.

Of course, probably you would think it's a bull statement, and the more 'proper' Vet-Rookie is when you compare the two retainers of a royal sibling

Your words not mine. Implying veteran status from the serving of a retainer holds no water. There are plenty of vets that do and vets that don't. That's prestige, not experience. In their supports Charlotte is a better fighter than Arthur. He comments about how she keeps saving him from enemies.

Rather than saying how much they fit to the archetype, just say how much they fit to the trope Red Oni, Blue Oni:

I think you're misunderstanding Red Oni, Blue Oni here. There's nothing that says that Red Oni's like Arthur aren't compassionate or down to earth. They are extroverted- 'bombastic.' You can be super extroverted, and super compassionate. You can be super bombastic about how compassionate you are.

Further Charlotte is aggressively flirtatious. Her sweetie facade goes out of her way to make herself visible, and the center of attention. She's flaunting, not keeping to herself. Then her true face is aggressively crude. So she changes from one type of Red, to another type of Red.

And finally their support conversation is not Red Oni Blue Oni at all. Read it and judge for yourself. The dynamic is one person is a liar, and the other is super trusting and gullible. Truth and lies has nothing to do with Red vs Blue. That's more Black vs White. And that's pretty compelling proof because it actually shows you what their dynamic is, so you don't need an abstract what it might be based on their personalities.

Arthur's bombast would need to be countered by stoicism. Charlottes flaunting would have to be countered by modesty. One would have to be loud while the other is quiet. Two different kinds of loud is just two different kinds of loud.

ChrisX
01:02:07 AM Aug 22nd 2016
Like I said, if I'm proven wrong with Arthur and Charlotte, I'm fine with them not being included. You presented your case well, so I'm in agreement on not re-adding that. (I had thought as long as their personality contrasted, it's fine, it didn't have to be a Red Oni, Blue Oni kind of contrast)

But that'll leave Boyd and Nolan being the oddball there and there's something that doesn't sit well in me. Maybe if there is another pair of Bord and Cord in a future game that has similar dynamic with both of them, then maybe they could officially put into the archetype...

Because if it's what you said "they don't know each other then it follows that they don't join at the same time."... then that would apply to the majority of Axe users, including Arthur and Charlotte (or just pick anyone else if their game has two axe users. Garcia and Dozla from Sacred Stones came to mind.) That was like 'looking for people who do not fit the archetype' and it actually damaged the credibility of Boyd and Nolan... That's why that statement, along with how it's confusing to pin down which one is the veteran and which one is the rookie is why I think maybe we shouldn't force Boyd and Nolan into that... That's just me, though. You think?
acrobox
09:33:59 PM Aug 24th 2016
well the way i think about it is this. You can look for anyone to be part of an archetype, and then see how many of the beats they hit. and if someone else hits those more closely.

You could start on Garcia and Dozla. And say hey he's cool, he's hot. They both use axes. They could be potential candidates. And then you look at their relationships. Well they don't join at the same time, one is early game, the other is more mid to late game. And further Dozla is part of a trio with a thief and a troubador. Garcia is part of a duo with another axe user. So now Dozla's out, but look at Garcia and Ross. Axes, cool and hot, personal relationship, veteran rookie, stats check out. This is a classic Bord and Cord. Its a new take because they're father and son, instead of friends. And they aren't in service to an Ogma or another person. But otherwise they hit a lot of the beats unamiguously.

Same thing with like Forrest and Elise. Forrest hits some of the beats for Maria, but Elise hits more of them, so you give it to Elise. Forrest also hits almost all of the beats for Beautiful Priest, so you slot him there.

So then when you get to Boyd and Largo for instance. Axe users. But they're both two different kinds of hot, so they fail. They don't know each other. They don't have the stats. One is early game, the other is late game. Boyd and Largo fail on almost everything except that they both use axes. And that's not notable.

Boyd and Nolan. Axe users. Hot and cool. Red flag because they don't know each other. But of their respective campaigns, they're both early game. They have the stats. Of their respective campaigns Boyd is a Rookie in the Mercenaries (he only has seniority over Ike) Nolan is a veteran of the Brigade (he founded the group). In a lot of ways they're kind of like Ross and Garcia if they weren't related. And since not being related is the major sin here, at least in my book I give it a pass.

Arthur and Charlotte. Axe users. Points off for two different kinds of hot. Red flag for don't know each other. In the true campaign (revelations) they do join at the same time. Points off again because they don't have the stats. So really here, they're just two people of the same class that join in the same chapter. But that could happen with any class if they don't fit any of the other beats, don't have the stats.

TLDR

As I see it Boyd and Nolan are just a steps away from being like Ross and Garcia. So its clear theyre rooted in Bord and Cord.

Forrest is only maybe 2 steps away from being like a Maria which might be fine, but Elise is only 1 step so the root is stronger for her. Especially when he's 1 step away from a traditional Beautiful Priest.

Arthur-Charlotte are like 4 steps away from any previous Bord and Cord. So that feels a little far to me, unless we get another pair that's similar to them.
Monsund
Topic
02:21:21 PM Dec 21st 2015
Its best not to include how classes do Tier-wise in each game. Its to debatable of a subject, and belongs in YMMV.

Exceptions may include times where a class is clearly improved to be playable, like Soldiers in Thracia 776 to Path of Radiance.
mariovsonic999
Topic
08:23:35 PM Oct 7th 2015
Should we rename the Shaman to just Dark Mage because Shaman are only named in the GBA games where every other game like Archanea, Jugdral, Awakening, and Fates are being called Dark Mage and seems to be sticking to it.
ManRandomThe
Topic
07:13:04 PM Apr 9th 2013
I noticed we generally used the English version of classes first, such as Cavalier/Social Knight, Myrmidon/Swordfighter, so on and so forth.

As such, should it be Wyvern Rider/Dragon Knight?
Oreochan
Topic
06:43:14 PM Oct 29th 2012
Pulled:

  • Adult Child: As an adult, she still apparently shows shades of this.

Adult Child has been renamed to One of the Kids. In order for this to be an example of the trope, the character's childishness has to be from or demonstrated by interacting with children. This example can be added back with context relevant to the trope if it fits.
RamboM
Topic
11:42:29 AM Oct 13th 2012
Which FE 9 tutorial is Anna supposed to appear in as a peg knight? I just thumbed through those and there's a generic peg knight that shows up occasionally, but it's not named "Anna" on the map.
TheSerpentineGargoyle
Topic
12:13:40 AM Mar 7th 2011
edited by TheSerpentineGargoyle
Honestly, since at least some of the games have their own Character Pages, this entire page should probably be recycled into those pages. Good luck to the troper with the patience to actually undertake that, though.
203.62.10.9
Topic
08:52:30 PM Mar 28th 2010
Sonica: Should we put each game/inter-timelines/something in folders? Like Marth's under one folder, Genealogy/Thracia under one, and so forth? If we're not splitting each game to have their own page, I figure folders would make it easy to scroll down. Why? The page's BIG and LONG.
BigBoss7556
12:07:23 PM Apr 27th 2010
Alright, I just arranged them into folders. That should make it easier to look for the specific game.
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