Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Is that another Pony dark-fic I see? Ah, it must be Monday.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

Please bring it in line with the Spoiler Policy, beforehand.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

^Kinda, it's more Earn Your Happy Ending.

The whole thing is a spoiler, we don't learn any of it until the final act when Pinkie remembers what happened. It's a final reveal of what her repressed memories are.

edited 1st Apr '13 11:14:29 AM by shoboni

Indiana Jones

• Donovan from The Last Crusade has no hesitation to send many "volunteers" the death traps in order to get the Holy Grail or shooting Henry Sr to convince Indy to get the Holy Grail for him.

How is that compared to Mola Ram?

EDIT: Oh and I saw another comic book example to bring up from Queen and Country:

• Ahtam Zahidov of Private Wars. He starts the book by raping and then torturing and killing a pro-western leader in Uzbekistan. Even after she tells him what he wants to know, he has her tortured even worse.

Well, he seems pleasant.

edited 1st Apr '13 12:27:25 PM by TVRulezAgain

What of The Colt is onscreen, exactly?

Just a note: A lot of us are sick to death of MLP darkfic and monster propositions. e try to not let that bias us, but it should be said we really, really hate dealing with that show here.

Honestly, for the Last crusade...Donovan is nasty, but is he even Major Toht nasty?

edited 1st Apr '13 12:01:23 PM by Lightysnake

Regarding Donovan: Mola Ram seems worse than he was (Child slavery, sacrifices, Village raids), Donovan doesn't really do it with the volunteers and trying to kill the heroes.

I brought up an example from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2012) a ago, and it was really poor. The Show currently has 5 really bad examples that do not qualify, and it still has a long ways to go, and they could get worse. Should I leave them as is, or should we cut them and re-add them if and when the meet the criteria?

Here: I brought up the Anti-Monitor for the Green Lantern: The Animated Series and I think he's a Generic Doomsday Villain: Any more opinions?

I concur there. The Anti-Monitor doesn't count.

For Zabidov...I can see him keeping him. If I remember Queen and Country's novels right, he's the most nasty except for his girlfiend

edited 1st Apr '13 12:38:57 PM by Lightysnake

So, a long time ago, I mentioned that this was posted on the YMMV page for Gundam X:

• Complete Monster: Not the Frost brothers (who are Smug Snakes at worst) but New Earth Federation leader Lord Fixx Bloodman and SRA leader Seidel Rasso. They don't survive the final battle.

I also said that I'd be finished the show soon and would discuss whether to expand or cut then. I'm done the show, and am now prepared to discuss Bloodman and Rasso (I'll note that the comment about the Frost Brothers being Smug Snakes at worst is completely inaccurate. If they didn't care about each other, they'd be on this list).

Anyway, for those who don't know, After War Gundam X is set in a post apocalyptic world after a massive war between the Earth Federation and the Space Revolutionary Army killed off most of humanity. The popluation has since rebounded to around 110 million people, and the New Federation and the revived SRA are gearing up for war again. The two characters under discussion, Fixx Bloodman and Seidel Rasso are the leaders of the New Federation and the SRA respectively. I'll be discussing them together for the sake of the contrast.

Who are Fixx Bloodman and Seidel Rasso? What have they done? Are their actions heinous by the standards of the story?

Fixx Bloodman is the leader of the New Federation. He aims to consolidate Earth and the colonies under a single government, headed up by himself. Bloodman believes that Newtypes (Telepathic Spacemen) are not the next step in human evolution. He views them as tools to be used by the state, and nothing more. His crimes include;

• Forcing Newtypes to fight as soldiers.
• Trying to Take Over the World (and succeeding at that), bringing all of the new nations of earth under his control.
• Taking advantage of the New Federation assembly's destruction to become sole dictator of earth.
• Invading the space colonies.

Seidel Rasso is the new leader of the SRA and the ruler of Cloud 9, one of the few surviving space colonies. He preaches that Newtypes are the next step in human evolution, and that since only colonists become Newtypes, they are the Master Race. His crimes include:

• Turning Cloud 9 into a Police State that tolerates no dissent.
• Covering up the existence of Newtypes on Earth so that his Master Race philosophy will go unquestioned.
• Executing his right hand man, Nichola, for suggesting he sign a peace treaty with Earth.
• Obliterating the rebellious colony of Satelicon with photon torpedoes, killing everybody aboard.
• Ordering a Kill Sat fired at Earth with the intent of killing everybody, Newtype and Oldtype alike who is living there.

Bloodman's actions are, in all honesty not that heinous. In a world where three different factions (the old SRA, represented by Nomoa Long, the new SRA under Rasso, and the Frost Brothers) have mass murder and/or outright genocide as their endgame, he just wants to Take Over the World. He also doesn't cross nearly as many lines as Rasso or the Frost Brothers do in pursuit of their goals. A bad man, and not somebody I'd ever give my vote to, but fail.

Rasso is a different story. His use of the Kill Sat against Earth puts him en paar with Nomoa Long (who tried to use a Humongous Mecha to kill everybody on Earth), and unlike Long, he's not insane. He's also horribly abusive of his own people, something Long never was. One could contend that the Frost Brothers' goal of a Newtype genocide is worse (since it involves killing a whole race), but that's splitting hairs and when it comes to actual attempted bodycount, nobody in the series can touch Rasso. It should be noted that X is easily the lightest entry in the series after Turn A Gundam, so Rasso (who equals UC's Bask Om, and CE's Azrael and Djibril when it comes to number of victims) really stands out. Pass.

Do they ever behave altruistically or show concern for another human being?

Bloodman does. He actually thinks that Earth and the colonies would be better off united under his leadership. He doesn't kill off the assembly (that was the Frost Brothers) and actually seems somewhat surprised that they would go that far on his behalf. He announces that he will lead his army from the front because that is his duty as Earth's new leader. He's grateful to the Frost Brothers for all they've done for him and rewards their service with promotions, appears to have been moved by his and Rasso's conversation with DOME (a talking computer that used to be the first Newtype; complicated story there), reconsiders his position on Newtypes, and from what we can see, had every intention of honouring the ceasefire that DOME forced him into with Rasso. Tiffa Adill, when reading Bloodman's mind, claims he is as bad as Rasso, but nothing onscreen actually backs that up. Fail.

Rasso, again, is different. He's a Straw Hypocrite who knows his Master Race philosophy is BS, and keeps preaching it anyway. He kills anybody who is a threat to his authority, including the Newtypes he claims to love so much, and spends most of his and Bloodman's conversation with DOME ranting about how it's all lies (DOME informs them that neither Oldtypes nor Newtypes are all that special), and at the end, happily breaks the ceasefire, gloating about how Oldtypes like Bloodman deserve to die. Pass.

Is there any Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factor present?

In Bloodman's case, yes. He has legitimate fears about Newtypes supplanting normal people, fears that Rasso only makes worse. There's also the fact that the Frost Brothers, the actual Big Bads of the series have their hands firmly planted up his backside. They work as his advisors, encouraging him to cross the line and bring the world under his command, convincing him that he is the messianic leader humanity has been waiting for. His moral agency is questionable. Fail.

Rasso has no such excuse. The Frost Brothers might be taking advantage of his war mongering, but they aren't working for him or he for them. In fact they never even meet, which means Rasso's brand of dictatorial asshattery is all his own doing. He's not insane (in fact he's about as coldly rational as a man planning the destruction of everybody still living on Earth can be) and he doesn't even have an ideological excuse, since he knows his beliefs are nonesense. A total douche. Pass.

In the final summation I'd say cut Bloodman and keep Rasso. While Bloodman fails all the criteria (and is largely listed I think, because he's an ugly, imposing old man with a scary deep voice), Rasso is not only bad for the Lighter and Softer X, but actually matches some of the worst villains in UC and CE, the two darkest universes in the franchise when it comes to bodycount (though not at spreading sheer human misery). Assuming people agree, I'll do a write-up for him, post it to the YMMV page for X and the subpage for Gundam and we'll be done with that franchise.

edited 1st Apr '13 1:12:27 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I'd like to bring up two examples. They are currently listed at the work's sub-page, but the discussion for them here didn't pop up when I searched for it. They are not listed on the TV sub-page, so I thought as a current Entry Pimp for the Horatio Hornblower mini-series I should sort it out. Here I go.

• Jack Simpson ruthlessly torments his fellow midshipmen, both physically and emotionally. He inflicts No-Holds-Barred Beatdown and Kick Them While They Are Down on Horatio, beating the living crap out of him, smacking his face against a table and kicking him mercilessly in the stomach. He claims that he knows the guys' dirtiest secrets and what gnaws their souls, and uses it as blackmail. It's heavily implied that his abuse of Archie Kennedy is the worst because Archie is the one most terrified of him and Simpson's mere presence gives him stress-induced Convulsive Seizures. Simpson was able to manipulate the situation and was never held responsible for his actions, and the others were punished instead. Later he shoots one shipmate in the middle of a raid just after setting another adrift in a row boat. He cheats in a Duel to the Death, claiming that it was a misfire. When his life is spared, he's unable to deal with Cruel Mercy and tries to stab his opponent In the Back.
  • Possible arguments against him being a Complete Monster: He was a rather short-lived character and not all that powerful, being only a midshipman, but he kept haunting Archie even after his death. No justification or motivation for his actions whatsoever, though he obviously took pleasure in the sadistic bullying and his evil games. His family background or back-story is not mentioned. He was ambitious and wanted to become an officer, but was shown to be rather stupid for it (e.g. during the navigational class). When he first appeared, he informed the midshipmen that his commission for Lieutenant was refused and that he was degraded from Acting Lieutenant to Midshipman once again. He was never kind to anybody. The best we get are Crocodile Tears when he was describing how Justinian had been destroyed and how Captain Keene had died, or his buttering up of a lieutenant from another ship.

• Colonel Moncoutant. He's one of the leaders of French Royalist troops who set on a mission to restore the monarchy in France during the French Revolution with the help of the British Navy. However, he doesn't care about his soldiers or the cause at all. He's very proud that he's an aristocrat, and he believes that common people are impossible to improve, comparing them to farm animals. He's very sneering about Horatio who is only a commoner and poor seaman in his eyes. He keeps killing off villagers with his personal guillotine one after another just for selling old bread and similar stuff. He was willing to shoot a child for singing Marseillaise, though admittedly, the boy was pushing his Berserk Button a little too hard and was Too Dumb to Live, having just witnessed that the song has got the mayor killed. He is shown to care only for his manor, paintings, art collection and meals.
  • Against:
    • He's not that menacing. His eye bulging can come off as hammy and slightly narm-y.
    • Motivation: He believed that it's his lawful right to have an easy life of a French aristocrat because he was born that way. He probably cared for the tradition itself, which is all right, but for example his family or aristocratic friends are never mentioned as a part of it. He didn't behave with compassion to anyone.

My personal take on it as a fan of the show:

• Jack Simpson? Yes, million times yes. He's horrible and an absolute Nightmare Fuel of a character.
• Moncoutant? Yes, but less strong than in Simpson's case.

---

EDIT: Keeping score for those potential CM's:

• Jack Simpson:
  • Yay: 4 (X Fllo, Lightysnake, Occasional Exister, Ambar Sonof Deshar)
  • Nay: 0
• Moncoutant:
  • Yay: 3 (X Fllo, Lightysnake, Occasional Exister)
  • Nay: 0

EDIT (2nd Apr): Both got challenged (mainly for being a stock bully character or a stock evil aristocrat), but neither of them has got a direct nay yet.

EDIT: Verdict: They are keepers.

edited 4th Apr '13 9:33:01 PM by XFllo

@ Ambar: Bloodman: So how scary is this voice? Er I mean Cut.

Rasso: Looks like a keep

Ooooh, Horatio Hornblower! I forgot to check that YM Mv page! Love it.I'll second your votes, and second Seidel Rasso as well

Darth Vader low, and gravelly to boot. It's a good vocal performance from Shin Aomori.

@Light, all of it. The flashback is in grueling detail.

Might as well vote to include then.

Also, this is a non-spoiler forum. Unless something is brand new in release, you don't have to spoiler it for us.

I just wrote it like I would in the entry.

This better?

• Silent Ponyville The Colt, he butchers foals alive and bakes them into cupcakes, and never shows remorse for his actions. He even feeds Pinkie a cupcake made from her own little sister. Celestia herself says noone has committed crimes as heinous as his in centuries, and has to think twice before declining to have him executed.

edited 1st Apr '13 2:52:30 PM by shoboni

Here's a few more group examples

• In Brave New World, the Nihilators are MADE of this trope. We could list all of the monsters here, but there's a more detailed list on the page. Although, bizarrely enough, the aforementioned Deoxys has made a Heel–Face Turn. Justified because of the new world and because both Deoxys and the Mother came together as one, so he isn't really the same one. Before, he was pure evil (see quote above) and apparently anything evil could be traced back to him. Now, he's more of a Hive Mind and a local deity.

Here's the more detailed list:

• Complete Monster: We stopped counting. "Highlights":
  • In the words of Oblivion's Shadow himself:

—> "We may even be a bit worse than what you have heard. We take pride in our evil. ...We're trying to release the Ruler of Evil and destroy the world, and we've made thousands of Pokémon suffer in the process. How can that possibly be justified?"

• He comes across as a monster. But his Villainous Breakdown is making even Darkrai pity him. A little bit, not too much, but enough to realise that he isn't a two-dimensional villain with no redeeming features.
• Bellum, a Froslass who finds great joy in not only freezing, killing and torturing her opponents with much enthusiasm, but also in torturing her youngest daughter, sometimes for the thrill of it. Entirely for the thrill of it. Lily was created in the image of Bellum's greatest enemy, Fantina - even hurting Fantina in effigy was good enough for Bellum.
  • Let's face it, she makes Ghetsis look like a loving father. At least the aforementioned "loving father" didn't create N for the sole purpose of abusing him.
• Prof. Tarantulas, a cyborg Ariados who experiments on his patients, not only taking pleasure in harming them, but also occasionally killing some of them, driving them insane, or closing their hearts to become his unwilling servants. He's the Pokemon version of Josef Mengele.
• Chobin, Prof. Tarantulas' assistant who is arguably the most disgusting Pokemon in existence. Completely and totally psychotic, he has in the past sexually violated, tortured, and eaten the patients Tarantulas is done with. Revealed later on that he's being cloned and has been killed several times. This does not help. Neither does finding out that the International Police want him captured more than Tarantulas.
• Paul. Yes, it's not much of a stretch from the anime version of Paul, but he got worse.
• J, who is even worse than in the anime - especially since, as a Pokemon Hunter, she's technically a serial kidnapper in this world.
• Now there's Gal, the Monkey King of Mount Blaze. When Team ACT is sent after him, he not only murders Allen, but he also brutally beats Charlie and rips his wings off. (Ironically, this is partly what leads to his downfall.)
• The Hive Queen is responsible for brainwashing Misty into thinking she was a bug, making her part of a Hive Mind. She went through years of horrific living until rescued, and she is unable to cope with emotions as a result.
  • They also makes a habit of devouring their own minions.
• Mewgle. Some things never change.
  • The Legendary Birds, so freaking much. It gets worse when it's revealed that The Birds became Shadows of their own free will. It's IMPOSSIBLE to purify them.
• Ghetsis has been mentioned. God help us. Especially given the chance he'll be far worse.

• The Manga/Naruto fanfic Naruto Vs Sasuke The Aftermath has Sasuke and the rest of the Sound village, who rape and kill just because. Sasuke rapes Sakura just because she wanted to join him and for some weird reason, this is treated as a Kick The Son Of A Bitch moment.

Sasuke himself might qualify, but there no way the whole village counts as this trope.

edited 1st Apr '13 3:06:42 PM by randomtroper89

Honestly, that whole entry is so awful, I'm inclined to say burn it all and let people reconstruct it here

If I may, I would like to nominate the djon from the Wishmaster series. Even for a horror villain I believe he stands out (like Michael, Freddy, mommy and daddy, and so on). He is an evil genie who wants to free all the other evil genies so that together they can destroy the world. He kills people in truly horrible ways, like turning somones intestines into a monster and having the monster explode out chestburster style. He also gives two of his victims a fate worse than death, he turns one woman into a sentant but immobile statue for all eternity, and traps another woman in a painting for all eternity. After death, his victims are sent to a place to be tortured forever instead of going to the afterlife (and in the second film, he apperently needs to do this to one thousand people so he can free the other genies).

jjj

Problem is the Djinn race seems to be this way, so it might be a matter of Always Chaotic Evil

@ 10858: You made a very convincing case. Sadly, I am not familiar with the franchise so I can't judge it myself, but your context and argumentation look solid. Therefore yay for Rasso.

@10868: Your post misses arguments (and refuting them perhaps) why he would not fit. I don't know the work, but trying to free beings of your own kind, be they evil or not, seems like possible justification. So far I'm undecided on the genie.

@10865: RE: Pony fanfic. That seems horrible enough, even in context of that work - I checked its page and skimmed through it. Sure there was no justification for it? Is his background known? If he fits criteria, it would get a vote from me. edit: Hahaha, I'm new to this forum and not sick of MLP:FIM fan fic yet. Even though I don't follow that show and I am kind of perplexed why so many people are into it. I myself read fan fic only very, very rarely for my most favourite stuff, and mostly just Affectionate Parodies or MST 3 commentaries anyway. But I see how this can get tedious very easily.

edited 1st Apr '13 4:30:48 PM by XFllo

I think, from what I remember of the films, that it's more they just want to take over the world without much fraternal feelings to one another.

If we take the films as a whole, though, in part 4, the Djinn falls in love which would disqualify him...however, there's no telling he's the same Djinn from the first two films

He may want to free beings of his own kind, but that's just so that they can destroy the world, it's not made clear wether or not he actualy cares about them, so I guess that's kind of debatable, but he stll enjoys doing those things, not just to free them but because he likes harming mortals, not to mention the horrible things he does, like in the oppening an emperor has him wish for the djinn to show him great sights, so he has the people in his palace horribly torured, thrown through walls and their skin separated from their skelitons (his idea of great sights). As for the whole race being evil, that is true, but I believe he is the only one we actualy see.

jjj

He is (unless the Djinn in 3 and 4 are different Djinn, which is plausible...or the one in 4 is different as the Djinn is killed in 3)

He's really the most evil Jackass Genie this side of Mephisto.

@9417

Good analysis. Both of these two are pretty much irredeemable, but Russo stands out. Bloodman is just a caricature of some anti-government conspiracies—he is president of a "democratic society" who wants to—and becomes world dictator and impose a totalitarian rule to "save" the world under a "New World Order" and ultra-unipolar world. Tiffa reads that he is bad as Russo because of what will very likely happen if he wins. However, all of these are informed attributes, nothing onscreen to show it.

Russo on the other hand is as bad as Gihren even if he actually believed in what he is sprouting. So vote keep. Also note that it is implied in both canon and fanon that he was implied to be responsible for the "incident" 15 years ago before the AW timeline........giving him the worst bodycount in Gundam history!

edited 1st Apr '13 4:33:19 PM by xie323

Let's tally stuff up now...

I'm gonna make the Doctor Who cuts tonight if nobody else comments.

For Star Trek, we seem to be keeping Lore and Kivos Favro

For Highlander, consensus is keep and rewrite Kalas, Felice Martins, Kern, Ernst Daimler, Kronos

I'll request my rewrites of the films of Class of 1984, Hellraiser and Total Recall be posted shortly

Horatio Hornblower...both examples have two votes

Solid consensus on Seidal Rasso from Gundam X

Diablo stands as Big D himself having 2 votes for, one against, so more consensus would be good