Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Not sure on Dmitrii. He's definitely evil, and less generic doomsday-y than Dracula, but he's actually in the game very little; he apparently dies early on, then shows up at the end, reveals that he faked his death and manipulated everyone, then absorbs all of Dracula's power and blows up. Overall, voting no.

edited 23rd Mar '13 8:09:34 PM by HamburgerTime

By any chance should we add Shiju to the Flame of Recca monsters? During the first match he's introduced in, he cannibalizes five people after killing them.

And I'm wondering if Genjuro should qualify if only for being indirectly responsible for that abomination. Granted compared to Kurei, Mokuren, and Mori, he's fairly small time but creating a man eating monster is pretty heinous in my book.

I think on the cannibalism front Mori has him beat...

Two that badly need expansion...

• "Reverend" Harry Powell in The Night of the Hunter. He plumbs every depth you could at the time that movie was made.

• Max Cady from Cape Fear. Especially Robert Mitchum, whose subtle performance makes Cady feel even more human and therefore even more terrifying.

edited 23rd Mar '13 8:46:11 PM by Lightysnake

Found this under YMMV.El Goonish Shive

•  Complete Monster: Most villains in EGS have a Freudian Excuse or some other qualifier that keeps them from being totally reviled. Damien does not. He constantly abuses Grace and her brothers, believes himself to be a god, and what brought him to everybody's attention was slaughtering everybody at the facility where Grace and her brothers were kept. What separates him from other EGS villains is that he doesn't even get to be funny. Every strip he appears in will be dark and serious, guaranteed. It's one of the reasons Dan killed him off. He didn't want the tone of the strip to change as a result of his presence.

I'd like to challenge this entry. First of all, Damien is too much of a Generic Doomsday Villain who blows shit up. As for being the darkest villain... I say he's tied with Pandora on that one. Regardless though, Knight Of Cerberus =/= Complete Monster.

Two, the characters repeatedly remind us of him slaughtering the scientists, beating his siblings, and wanting to create a new species. But this is all Offstage Villainy and the worst we see him do is try to kill Grace's friends.

Three, Damien is actually a nice deconstruction of A God Am I. He's truly delusional to the point where he refuses to believe that he was created in a lab. He shows genuine horror when he realizes that he's just a mortal, and blows himself up, believing "If I truly am a god, then this body won't matter. If I'm just a mere mortal... then life isn't worth living. Either way I'm Taking You with Me!" It's actually pretty sad.

I vote to cut him.

In regards to the Dredd entry in #10546, looks good in general but one minor nitpick: they used three guns, not one.

I would like to nominate Erol from Jak3. He wants to destroy the world like Gol and Maia from the first game, but unlike them, he was not driven insane or anything, he is in full control of his actons. I know we discussed some Jak and Daxter examples in the past, but we never discussed him.

What was the ruling about Arcturus Mengsk from Star Craft?

Okay, for those who haven't seen The Ten Commandments, Baka is an Ascended Extra of that guy Moses kills for beating a slave. Anyway, here's his crimes off the top of my head:

• When Moses's mother is at risk of being crushed to death (her scarf is caught under a moving slab of stone), Lilia (Joshua's love interest) runs to Moses and Baka for help. Baka doesn't care, saying old women are replaceable
• He tries to make Lilia his Sex Slave. When Joshua sets her free, Baka says "You foolish stupid man. I would have kept her, only a short while. She would have returned to you, shall we say, more worthy." I'm not sure what he's implying.
• After Joshua helps Lilia escape, Baka ties him up and sadistically tries to whip him to death. Moses steps in and kills him.

Something Wicked This Way Comes

• Mr. Dark, in both the book and the movie.

Alan Wake

• Scratch is one of the most sadistic and twisted character in the entire franchise. He loves to torment Alan throughout the use of televisions, while brutally torturing and killing several unfortunate victims. He even gloat about of how he'll even go as far as deceiving Alice until the eventual day to kill her.

The Mist

• Mrs. Carmody, especially when she calls for David's son to be sacrificed. More so in the original novella than the movie.

Needs expansion.

The Mutant Leader and Byron Brassballs from The Dark Knight Returns are listed. Was there ever any discussion for them?

edited 24th Mar '13 3:56:19 PM by TVRulezAgain

@10556: My main problem with adding Erol is that in Jak 3 he essentially becomes a Generic Doomsday Villain. In Jak 2 he actually had a personality, he was a Smug Snake who conducted torturous Dark Eco experiments on Jak which ended up turning him from a pretty nice kid to a revenge obsessed Nominal Hero. Afterwards, Erol becomes The Rival to Jak and tries to beat him in the racing competition to destroy Jak as a beacon of hope in the city's eyes, and to steal Jak's Love Interest. In Jak 3 essentially all of his character traits from the second game are gone and now he has no adequately explained motivation for his evil acts. Why has he become the Metal Head leader in the third game when he wanted to wipe them all out in the second? Why is he bringing the Dark Makers to earth? Is he trying to conquer the planet or destroy it? Why does he want to conquer/destroy the planet when he expressed no interest in doing either before? Like I said, it's never explained, he was just randomly turned into some wannabe world-destroyer. Also, while the game never directly comes out and says Erol has been turned insane like Gol and Maia, it's not a stretch to imagine that's the case. Gol and Maia turned nuts from Dark Eco exposure and the last we see of Erol in Jak 2 before his presumed death is him careening headlong into a large supply of Dark Eco which promptly blows up. It's not hard to believe that the exposure drove him nuts just like it did to Gol and Maia, and his sanity may have also been affected when he was rebuilt as a cyborg (which was kind of impressive given the only original part of his body he seems to have left is half of his face).

@10558: Agree with deleting Mr. Dark, Mrs. Carmody, and the Mutant Leader. Don't think Byron Brassballs counts either since beating two people pales in comparison to anything the Joker does any given Tuesday.

If there are no objections I'll delete Megumi from Shiki, IceDevimon and Mephistomon from Digimon Tamers, the Rataxes from Babar, and Molag Bal from The Elder Scrolls in twenty-four hours.

edited 24th Mar '13 2:58:11 PM by OccasionalExister

Writeup for Baron Wolfgang von Strucker

• Baron Wolfgang von Strucker, Nick Fury's Arch-Enemy, has the dubious honor of being both a Nazi war criminal and an international terrorist as the leader of HYDRA. A German noble who subscribed to racial superiority, Strucker achieved a high rank in the Death's Head and earned a personal enmity with Nick Fury himself. In a crowning moment of monstrosity on World War 2, Strucker found a race of benevolent, empathic aliens that crashed near the small German town of Gruenstadt. To cover his tracks, Strucker killed the entire population of the town and planned to manipulate the aliens into providing him their technology. As head of HYDRA, Strucker ordered countless terrorist attacks throughout the globe that claimed the lives of many, many innocent people, all the while secretly controlling SHIELD through Life Model Decoys and playing his enemy's to get many agents killed while HYDRA continued its plans unabated. Strucker's ultimate goals are global domination and genocide of all 'lower races', and he made many attempts at both. When informed his son Andreas had been murdered by Norman Osborn, Strucker's only response was that he owed Osborn a favor. He also killed his eldest son with the Death Spore which is just as awful as it sounds.

edited 25th Mar '13 8:54:05 AM by Lightysnake

You've got a redlink and used "countless" twice in one sentence. Otherwise, looks alright to me. My only question is, in terms of scale, how do Strucker's operations compare with those of other Marvel supervillains?

EDIT: From the YMMV page for Elementary (which on a sidenote is a much better show than I was worried it might be).

• Complete Monster: So far, all the show's villains have been very twisted, amoral, and lacking in empathy. Some prominent examples:
  • The villain of the pilot episode. Psychiatrist Richard Mantlo wants his wife dead, but he doesn't want to kill her himself. Instead, he manipulates one of his patients—Peter Saldua, a man who's trying to get rid of his Unstoppable Rage—into committing the murder through a combination of bad therapy and a mislabeled prescription (steroids instead of sedatives). Mantlo even talks his wife into getting plastic surgery so her appearance will match the kind of woman who sets Saldua off. Then, Mantlo kills Saldua himself, making it look like a suicide. So not only is Mantlo responsible for two murders, he deliberately ruins the life of someone who went to him for help. Nice.
  • "Child Predator" provides two more examples. Samuel Abbott was the original child molester/killer known as "The Balloon Man". However, his first victim, Adam Kemper, turned out to be an Evil Genius who turned the tables on Abbott and became the new Balloon Man for his own twisted reasons, with Abbott as his accomplice. When Sherlock gets on the case and Abbott commits suicide, Kemper uses Obfuscating Stupidity to fool the NYPD (including Sherlock!) long enough to get immunity for his crimes before Holmes discovers the truth. Fortunately, Sherlock becomes a Rules Lawyer and uses the agreement's Exact Words to make sure Kemper is punished anyway.
  • The villain of "You Do It to Yourself". Professor Trent Annunzio sadistically abuses his wife Jun, which drives her into the arms of his teaching assistant Brendan O'Brien. When Annunzio learns that he's dying of cancer, he hires someone to kill him, then creates evidence framing Jun and Brendan for the murder so he can get posthumous revenge. Fortunately, Sherlock figures everything out.
  • And of course, there's the episode "M." Sebastian Moran has murdered dozens of seemingly unrelated people by hanging them upside down in a Saw-style tripod contraption, then slitting their throats and letting them bleed to death. One victim was twelve years old. It turns out he's working for Moriarty, who used the same method to kill Irene Adler while Moran was in prison. And we don't even know why Moriarty is doing this yet.

The actions of the first suspect, Adam, and Annunzio are all offscreen. Samuel Abbott's crimes are not only offscreen, but he's effectively Adam's victim, and wanted to stop but couldn't. I haven't seen "M" yet, but I'll be checking it out tonight and can determine if he belongs.

edited 24th Mar '13 3:34:16 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Any other opinions on Dmitrii from Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow? Both he and Graham (Aria) are listed with very little context on YMMV.Castlevania Chronicles Of Sorrow. I think Graham should be cut, honestly; the only evil thing he does is stab Yoko. As for Dmitrii, I know nothing about Dawn.

I weighed in in Dmitrii at the top of the page. It might also be worth mentioning that the person he kills for his Moral Event Horizon, Celia, isn't exactly an innocent victim; in fact, before Dmitrii reveals himself we think she is the Big Bad.

I know you weighed in, I was asking if there were any OTHER opinions. One person isn't really enough.

I say cut both

I'll confirm and second Hamburger Time's position on Dmitrii. The only thing of any substance that he does is murder the woman who was basically his manager. It's still a nasty thing for him to do in context, but villains backstabbing each other isn't particularly heinous.

Also second Occasional Exister's opinion on Errol; far too one-dimensional to be a good candidate.

edited 24th Mar '13 4:02:48 PM by AquaRegia

For the examples Ambar posted...my opinion will mirror Ambar's

There's an example listed at, of all things, Tails Gets Trolled. For those not in the know, it's a Stealth Parody (I think) of Revenge Fic like Sonichu, and everything in it is Played for Laughs. Dark laughs, but laughs all the same. The character in question is the prince of the Trolls, who does... things... to the corpses of the people the trolls troll to death.

Watched the episode. Gonna have to say no on M qualifying. He's a cut above the series' other villains but only has one murder and one attempted murder onscreen. They're both pretty gruesome, but not notably moreso. The other thirty plus victims are all offscreen villainy. There's also the fact that M isn't the focus of the episode. The focus on the episode is Sherlock going off the rails. Going to have to recommend a cut, unless he comes back later on (which given his identity is certainly a possibility).

@10560: Strucker entry looks good to me.

@10561 & 10569: Agree with cutting all those Elementary examples.

@10562: Agree with you and Hamburger Time on cutting Dmitri.

I axed Graham and Dmitrii.

Have two votes to burn the Elementary examples, plus my own. A question, however, concerning M. He's said to have killed 36 people using the same technique we see him use on his victim in the episode he appears in. He gladly confesses to thirty-five of them. We see pictures of the bodies of the victims who were recovered on Holmes' wall. Is that enough to push the commission of those crimes out of Offscreen Villainy? The episode clearly indicates that M is more evil than the average perpetrator, and he's treated as such by the show and the characters, on the basis of both the gruesome method of murder (suspending people from a tripod and causing every drop of blood in their body to pour out) and his offscreen bodycount. Thoughts?

Also, I mentioned this before, but I think we have a problem with all the Law & Order examples, and those for various other procedural shows, namely that the commission of all the crimes is entirely offscreen.

edited 24th Mar '13 7:00:04 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I'll add a vote in to cut the Elementary examples.

Ugh... Preparing an Easter trip is a pain...

Anyway, the Strucker writeup looks good.

M from Elementary gets a no for now, but I could very well see him getting a pass if we see him again doing more really bad stuff.

Dmitrii looks like a cut.

TVRulezAgain's examples look like cut, except maybe for the Alan Wake and The Ten Commandments examples.

Depends of the procedural. In my favorite at the moment, Cold Case, for instance, everything is onscreen due to the formula of the show itself.

edited 24th Mar '13 8:17:50 PM by HamburgerTime