During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Really cause I think Doug is just enough of a bastard to qualify. He's a notorious criminal whose committed hundreds of crime, most of which involves stealing cars, his elaborate plans are explained throughout the audience, and enjoys escaping the Nine Nine precinct every single time, and admits that even after getting his immunity he'll go back to being a criminal, not to mention his The Chessmaster with unlimited charisma, and an Ensemble Dark Horse that also happens to be a Karma Houdini.
Plus its not like with CM where his actions must always be taken completely seriously and we even got someone from a comedy approved (Edmund Blackadder from the Blackadder).
edited 3rd Jun '18 1:07:34 PM by G-Editor
Goku Black
On the Lego Batman movie.
- Magnificent Bastard: The Joker. Beneath the colorful LEGO animation and cartoon violence is an evil mastermind of the highest order. He arranges to have all the villains in Gotham surrender except for Harley. Batman knows Joker is up to something, and plots to send him to the Phantom Zone to ensure he can't hurt anyone ever again. However, this is exactly what the Joker wants; he has Harley plant the idea in Batman's head, so once he's in the Phantom Zone he can rally the greatest villains from across the multiverse to ally with him, and then Harley lets them all out. With his nigh-unstoppable army of supervillains, Joker takes over Wayne Island, turns Wayne Manor into an amusement park lair, and unleashes Batman's arsenal of vehicles and gadgets with his allies behind the controls. He then banishes Batman to the Phantom Zone and sets up a bomb to blow apart the fault lines beneath Gotham, destroying the city. And in the end, the only way Batman can save the city is to ask for Joker's help and admit that he is his greatest enemy, giving Joker exactly what he wanted in the first place.
I actually think he might count here as weird as it is to say. Still evil but toned down and with a genuinely good plan.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
To be a Master
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The only reason why most Jokers fail is because they either are too monstrous, too prone to violent Villainous Breakdown, too goofy to be taken seriously, or never actually succeeding in anything thanks to Batman.
The Lego Joker actually succeeds in getting what he wanted: Batman's acknowledgement that Joker is his greatest arch nemesis.
edited 3rd Jun '18 2:16:33 PM by Shadao
Hmm... while that entry could use some touching up, it's actually not half-bad. Anyone wanna do an EP there?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Bruh, it's a LEGO movie, you hardly need an excuse to watch that. Real talk tho, I heard it's legit lit, so should be fun times.
edited 3rd Jun '18 4:37:20 PM by 43110
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I can please!! (Wants an excuse to watch a movie while believing that he's doing something useful)
edited 3rd Jun '18 4:15:42 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
So I was reading through this thread and saw that Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans's Rustal Elion wsa mentioned as a possible candidate, but was not actaully proposed, so here we go. This will contain some pretty big spoilers from the anime, of course:
What's the work?
Gundam Iron Blooded Orphans is a 2016-2017 anime in the Gundam franchise. It takes place in a distant future where Mars is a terraformed colony of various Earth based power blocs. The power blocs oppress the people of Mars with the aid of a military police force called Gjallarhorn, which is run by seven noble families. While Gjallarhorn's founders once saved humanity, the organization became corrupt over the years.
Economic conditions on Mars are so bad that many children are forced to become child soldiers just to earn the money they need to survive. The heroes of the series, Tekkadan are child soldiers who take over their organization after the adults who run it betray them.
In Season One, Tekkadan escorts a Martian independence activist to Earth while being opposed by Gjallarhorn. Along the way, they are assisted by one McGillis Fareed, an ambitious Gjallarhorn noble who seeks to reform the organization by any means neccessary.
In Season Two, McGillis decides to take down our candidate, Rustal Elion, to reform Gjallarhorn and enlists Tekkadan's help.
Who is Rustal Elion
Rustal Elion is one of the Seven Stars, the seven nobles who run Gjallarhorn.We don't really learn much about his backstory beyond his being a nobleman and a skilled military command and strategist. He commands Gjallarhorn's largest fleet, the Arianrhod Fleet. His subordinates show complete loyalty to him.
Rustal's relationships with three of his subordinaes are of interest here:
Vidar is a mysterious masked man who turns out to be a friend of McGillis that McGillis attempted to murder in his bid to reform Gjallarhorn. While Rustal could easily expose McGillis as a traitor by revealing Vidar's true identity, he chooses not to until Vidar decides that he is ready to reveal himself to the world, Rustal is shown to respect Vidar even though Vidar seems to be a bit wary of Rustal and his underhanded tactics.
Julieta is an Arianrhod pilot who is fanantically loyal to Rustal even by the standards of Arianrhod. Julieta is a commoner and while Gjallarhorn typically does not let commonors join the organization, Rustal made an exception for her because of her skills. Rustal is somewhat uncomfortable with Julieta's fanatic devotion towards him and is pleased when he becomes a Broken Pedestal to him.
Iok is another Seven Stars noble and one of Rustal's commanders. Iok is incompetent, but Rustal keeps him around because he wants Iok to grow to become an effective commander. It is only when Iok's foolishness causes an AI controlled super weapon to wake up and nearly wipe out Mars that Rustal threatens to cut ties with him.
So now on to what Rustal actually does. When McGillis makes it clear that he is going after Rustal, Rustal decides to weaken McGillis by attacking his allies in Tekkadan. When he learns that Tekkadan is going after a pirate, Rustal has his fleet try to capture the pirate instead to steal the glory and the boundy.
When this fails, Rustal engineers a war between two power blocs, one of which Tekkadan is contracted to provide defense for. The other power bloc is represented by McGillis's forces. Rustal has one of his agents plant a bomb that critically wounds the leader of one of the power blocs and the leader of Tekkadan's Earth branch, the latter of which is replaced by a Tekkadan member that Rustal's agents bribed to give Tekkadan bad orders to prolong the war. While the war is ended before a pemanent rift can be drawn between McGillis and Tekkadan, Tekkadan loses their contract with the power bloc and has to shut down their Earth branch.
Tekkadan is also allied with a mafia organizaiton called Teiwaz. Iok teams up with one of Tekkadan's rivals in Teiwaz to bring down Tekkadan in the hopes of regaining Rustal's favors. When the leader of Teiwaz learns of this, he calls in a favor with Rustal, who places Iok under house arrest until the matter blows over.
Eventually, McGillis and Tekkadan decide to go to outright war with Rustal. Rustal has one of his subordinates infiltrate McGillis's forces, fire an illegal Dainsleif railgun, and commit suicide. This gives Rustal the justification to use his own Dainsleifs to annihilate McGillis and Tekkadan's forces. While Tekkadan make a desperate plan that comes close to killing Rustal, they fail and are forced to retreat.
Aftewords, Tekkadan's leader Orga contacts Rustal and offers to turn himself and McGillis in in exchange for sparing the rest of Tekkadan. Rustal refuses and matter-of-factly explains that he is going to kill every last member of Tekkadan to show the world what happens when you defy Gjallarhorn. To aid in his cleanup efforts, Rustal enlists the aid of a Complete Monster Corrupt Corporate Executive named Nobliss Gordon.
Ultimately Rustal's forces manage to kill McGilis, Orga and most of Tekkedan's pilots, although Tekkadan's rank and file manage to survive by having their allies create fake identites for them. It's implied that Rustal knows about the survivors, but has no intention of killing them.Because of the political instability Tekkadan causes, the Seven Stars are forced to disband in favor of having the leadership of Gjallarhorn democratically elected. Rustal is elected leader of Gjallarhorn and withdraws most of his forces from Mars as a favor to Teiwaz, leading to Mars becoming independant.
Is he magnificent?
Rustal is a skilled strategist who wins most of the time. While the war he enginners fails to fully accomplish its goal, he manages to weaken Tekkadan in the process. During his actual war with McGillis, he outplays everyone and wins with relatively few casualties. Despite his ruthlessness, he is ultimately remembered as a hero. He is also the only Gundam Big Bad to end a series victorious without being defeated in a sequel series.
He ultimately reforms Gjallarhorn, although it's left ambiguous as to whether this was his intent or if it was the only way to resolve the political instability Tekkadan caused,
Overall, I'd say yes.
Is he a bastard?
He engineers a war just to undermine his politiacl rival. He sends a subordinate on a suicide mission just so he can have a pretext for using an illegal weapon to end a battle more efficiently. He refuses to accept Tekkadan's attempt to surrender despite wiping out the organization would entail killing dozens of children.
So I'd say yes.
Is he charming?'
He's shown to care about his subordinates. He always exudes an air of confidence, and always seems to back it up. He only loses his composure once, when he does an Oh, Crap! face when it looks like Tekkadan is about to kill him.
During the final battle, he calls Tekkadan "space rats", a Fantastic Slur for people from Mars. However, he never displays any other prejudice against Martians and is shown working with the leader of the independant Mars in the finale. His mentorship of Julieta also indicates that he's opposed to Gjallarhorn's classism, as she is a commoner and would not ordinarily be allowed to serve in Gjallarhorn.
Competition
No one really manages to outplay him. The closest competion he has is McGillis, who at first appears to be a devious Chessmaster. However, it turns out that McGillis's master plan is to steal Bael, a Humongous Mecha whose pilot the Seven Stars are sworn to obey by a centuries old law. However, after Vidar exposes McGillis as a traitor, the Seven Stars decide that they won't serve him just beause of that law and all of McGillis's plans are derailed.
Conclusion
I'd say he counts. The main issue I can find with him is that his reasons for reforming Gjallarhorn aren't properly explained.
After the previous cuts, there are only two entries left on MagnificentBastard.Fan Fic. Per Sandbox.Pages In Accidentally Miscapitalised Namespaces, the correct spelling is "Fanfic", so it would need to be cut. Normally such pages are then recreated, but are either of the two examples worth saving?
- Harry Potter in What Would Slytherin Harry Do? is an expert Rules Lawyer and he makes frequent use of Xanatos Gambits.
- Professor Moriarty in Children of Time. Having survived Reichenbach, he Came Back Wrong (with Merlin Sickness), Took a Level in Badass... and now vividly demonstrates just what a monster can do if he does comprehend Good. He's The Chessmaster, The Corrupter, the Consummate Liar and Unfettered. Having somewhat more of a heart than he did in the Canon actually makes him that much more dangerous, which Sherlock Holmes very quickly discovers.
Both examples seem somewhat lacking in context.
Rustal was on my to-do, but nicely done! I'm glad to let you take that one. Rustal keeps easily.
Just cut those. As a sidenote the answer to "what would Slytherin Harry do?" based on most of the Slytherins we see is presumably, "snivel a lot and cry for someone in authority to save him."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
They're supposed to be astute. They're just metaphorical actual Smug Snakes.
Abstain on the last Gundam candidate. I have...feelings regarding his series.
Watch me destroying my country
Considering the discussion of a certain character yesterday inspired me to do my first effortpost for this thread, I give you the one and only Nom Anor!
What's the Work?
The New Jedi Order was a nineteen-book Story Arc in Star Wars Legends, released during the late nineties and early aughts over the better part of five years. It's set approx. 20-25 years after the events of Return of the Jedi and concerns a war between the New Republic and the Yuuzhan Vong, a race of Scary Dogmatic Aliens from outside the Galaxy Far Far Away. The Vongnote are vicious humanoids (I think of them as Space Orcs meets Space Drow) who are incredibly religious, have a strictly hierarchical caste-based society, use biotech exclusively and find mechanical technology obscene, and, perhaps most disturbing at all, are apparently completely disconnected from the Force, to the point that Jedi can't sense them and only occasionally affect them.
Our candidate is The Heavy of the series, the Vong who gets by far the most face-time and development, for all that he's a very atypical example of his people.
Who is Nom Anor?
Nom Anor is an executor, a midlevel Yuuzhan Vong of the intendant caste, who are the politicians and bureaucrats of his people. They also handle a lot of the Vong's intelligence operations, which is where Anor comes in. He specializes in what the Vong call "weakening the hinges of the enemy's fort" - ie, he's a spy and Agent Provocateur who infiltrates "infidel" planets in disguise and sows internal strife in order to weaken them and soften them up for invasion. His specialty is presenting himself as a charismatic demagogue and riling up his followers in order to cause insurrections that will leech attention and manpower away from the broader war, though he has other personas and tactics as well. However, while Anor professes to be a highly devout and orthodox follower of the Yuuzhan Vong gods, inside he's a skeptic bordering on outright atheism - he cares nothing for the Yuuzhan Vong cause as a whole, only how he personally can benefit from it and the heights of power his victories will help him attain.
What Does He Do?
Note: Again, the NJO is nineteen books and Anor appears more often than any other villain, so this is a very abbreviated version of his rap sheet.
Anor actually makes an Early-Bird Cameo in the Dark Horse miniseries Crimson Empire as The Man Behind the Man to an Imperial splinter faction, but he doesn't make his proper debut until the first NJO book, Vector Prime, where he starts a revolutionary group called the Red Knights of Life on the planet Rhommammool in order to divert the New Republic's attention away from the Outer Rim, where the invasion is beginning under the command of his political patron, Prefect Da'Gara. Anor pulls off his part of the plan flawlessly; Da'Gara can't say the same and suffers a humiliating defeat; Anor, as the last survivor of their faction, gets put on probation when the main invasion force shows up a few books later. Anor wins favor back by successfully orchestrating the invasion of Duro, which goes much better, and becomes attached to Tsavong Lah's personal staff. Here he winds up playing The Rival to Lah's other advisor, Vergere, and they end up being partnered on a plan to convert the captured Jedi Knight Jacen Solo to the Vong cause. Alas for Anor, Vergere turns out to be a renegade Old Republic-era Jedi who uses the entire exercise as a way to train Jacen in her philosophy rather than the Vong's, then turns the tables on Anor when she and Jacen escape. They both expect he'll be killed for his failure, but he manages to shift the blame entirely to Vergere and gets off with little more than a slap on the wrist. However, when Tsavong Lah falls into a New Republic trap and is killed in the next book, Supreme Overlord Shimrra has had enough; Anor barely escapes with his life and flees into hiding one step ahead of the Supreme Overlord's killers.
He falls in with a group of Shamed Ones, the Vong's lowest caste, and upon learning they're heretics who have begun incorporating elements of the Jedi way into their practice, hits upon a new course of action. Anor knows that Shimrra fears the heresy but that in truth it's not very organized or widespread, so he decides to make the Supreme Overlord's nightmare come true. Naming himself "Yu'Shaa the Prophet", he takes control of the heretics and forms them into a unified insurgent army using the very same tactics he once used against other species, intending to topple Shimrra and steal his throne by force. His actions throw the Vong into civil war and help turn the tide of the broader conflict - when an attempt to further build "the Prophet's" legend by finding the "living planet" Zonama Sekot ends up revealing rather uncomfortable truths about the Vong's own origins and history, Anor turns his coat again, selling out the planet to Shimrra in an attempt to regain favor and is rewarded with the powerful rank of prefect, which he'd long coveted. As the war ends up turning more and more against the Vong and Shimrra gets more and more volatile, Anor finds himself torn between his loyalty to the throne and to the heretics (no one else knows he's the Prophet) - during the final New Republic assault on Yuuzhan'tar, he takes back command of the heresy and turns the tide once again in the Republic's favor (albeit grudgingly). When a final attempt to doublecross and get revenge on his Jedi enemies after the final victory over The Man Behind the Man fails, Anor comes to realize that no matter what happens, there's no place for him among the Vong or the Republic; he voluntarily stays behind on Shimrra's personal ship as it's destroyed around him, gives the Solos the chance to escape, and faces death with dignity.
What's his Competition Like? How Does He Perform Against Them?
Though Anor matches wits with his heroic opponents multiple times, his chief opposition is from his own side. Vergere has a tendency to get the better of him in their encounters, and he's at his most Smug Snake-ish in the books where she also appears; however, worth noting that he's missing a key piece of her backstory (her Jedi past) that would help him make sense of her motivations. Senator Viqi Shesh is a Republic turncoat he convinces to sell out to the Vong, and he generally plays her like a fiddle before handing her over to Tsavong Lah; Lah, as I mentioned last page, is an even bigger Depending on the Writer than Anor, but Anor is generally depicted as the more cunning of the pair even when Lah's at his best, and is more consistently written. His immediate superior and rival in the intendant caste is High Prefect Drathul; Drathul is The Starscream to Shimrra and a genuine Smug Snake, and Anor ends up getting to strangle him after revealing himself as the Prophet. On the hero side, Anor's main opponents are Jedi - he can generally outplay them if he has prep time, but he's no warrior and no match for someone with a lightsaber, folding fairly easily if confronted directly - albeit with the intention of living to fight another day. But in general, Anor is very good at wriggling out of tight spots, whether with his enemies or his superiors, and until the very end usually manages to land on his feet no matter how bad things look.
Is he a Chessmaster? Is he a Manipulative Bastard? Is he capable of thinking on his feet?
Yes to all three, or else he wouldn't be able to do his job, which requires all three skills. He admittedly leans mostly to the latter two, as while he's working for the Vong establishment his higher-ups do most of the long term planning while he executes the ground game, but as the Prophet he has to do his own long-range scheming and comports himself pretty well on that front.
That said, he is a significant case of Depending on the Writer, and certain writers make him more competent than others. The novels Star by Star and Traitor have him particularly smug snake-y when opposed by Vergere, while the final arc, where he's reduced to nothing and claws his way back to power as both Prophet and prefect on sheer cunning, determination, and ruthlessness, have him at his most magnificent. In a lot of cases, however, when his plans do fail it's either because of other people not being able to manage their end (in Vector Prime or Hero's Trial) or because of circumstances that couldn't be reasonably foreseen (in Jedi Eclipse and Rebirth).
How much of a bastard is he? Does he have redeeming qualities? Is he capable of being charming?
Nom Anor embodies It's All About Me and Ambition Is Evil - he really only cares about himself and his own advancement, and the rest of the galaxy can go hang. This cynicism makes him especially notable among a species who have The Fundamentalist as their hat. However, Anor is usually pragmatic - where most of the Vong tend towards "kill them all and let the gods sort them out", he's much more willing to take the time to understand "infidels" and figure out how to work with them, or use their weaknesses against them. He's also very good at talking his way out of situations he really shouldn't be able to and fool people who don't trust him as far as they can kick him - nobody (except one person who was already on his side) figured out he was the Prophet until he chose to drop the act, for example.
As a note, other Vong consider Anor to be a Dirty Coward. However, this is by the standards of the Vong, a Martyrdom Culture like no other, and while Anor certainly cares for self-preservation, he's also willing to (reluctantly) risk himself if he has to in order to come out on top. This trait also makes him stand out as perhaps the only member of his species with any common sense whatsoever, so I think it's less of an automatic disqualifier than it might be under other circumstances.
Final Verdict
At his best, Nom Anor is an archetypal Magnificent Bastard. At his worst, he's a fairly high functioning Smug Snake. Looking back on the series, however, I'd say that he's the former more often than the latter, and is generally written as if he's supposed to be an MB even if not all the authors manage to convey him as one. I'd give him a tentative ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for his best moments, but this is a somewhat unusual case so I'll leave it to the thread to make up its mind.
edited 3rd Jun '18 5:46:21 PM by MasterGhandalf
''All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us..."
Yea to Anor as well.
to Rustel and Anor
So anymore votes on Doug Judy? So far I got 3 (miraculous, Elfenliedfan, and 43110) and 0 ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
. This is the link to his effort post.
Sorry for taking the effort post from you, Lighty. I'll make sure I'm more careful in the future.
Doug Judy and Anor.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Speaking of Judy.... anyone want to weight on my EP on HER from Ruiner. It got 4 Yes (43,Kazuya,Miraculous and G) and 1 no (Ambar). Heres the link to her EP:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15255322860A44444400&page=46
Yes to rustal and anor btw
edited 3rd Jun '18 6:04:55 PM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
And honestly, for everything that I can read, his only virtue is not being as evil as the rest of his faction.
The complains of Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy that I have read online dont help his case, the more I read about the plot, it just seems that his The Bad Guy Wins was mostly a attempt to say "fuck you" to the audience by not letting neither the protagonist or the villain with the most screentime win and instead giving the victory to the new-villain whose motivations arent even explained. Plus, I have a friend who actually watched the series and hates him, I tend to agree with said friend, so ultimately, I have to say to Rustal.
This is a democracy, so if he gets upvoted, I will accept it.
to Nom Anor, it seems like he meets the criteria despite the Depending on the Writer
The Effort Posts are supossed to work with people that dont even watch the show. If I can talk about said show with other person and then form my opinion, that is valid.
Again. If everyone else ends up saying and I am the only . That is fine.
THAT is a counterargument. I am willing to change my opinion. I am still convinced of my own, but I can hear arguments.
edited 3rd Jun '18 6:57:52 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
You haven't even seen the show and you're downvoting him based off that? I have reservations on that.
The EP, yes. That isn't voting on the EP,.
edited 3rd Jun '18 7:36:55 PM by Lightysnake
Yea to both Anor and Rustle. He’s easily one of the lighter characters in the show, especially compared to the likes of Nobliss.
While IBO certainly has divisive audience opinions and you can vote however you want, saying the plot is just The Bad Guy Wins to piss off the audience is untrue. Rustle faces challenges and in no way is it a case of the plot working in his favour to undermine his credentials.
edited 3rd Jun '18 6:53:42 PM by 43110
Btw, a yes to Elfen's example from Ruiner.
I found this entry on Western Animation that was already cut from the comics page.
- Dogbert on the series Dilbert whose "religious belief" is "that everyone exists for the sole purpose of entertaining me." On one episode, he sets up a carnival booth where you "knock a street urchin off a beam with a baseball and win a toy." In another, he convinces Congress to abandon all holidays in favor of National Dogbert Day (The traditional Dogbert Day feast: the bald eagle. He wanted something special) for the sole purpose of being annoying. (The same reason he invented Secretary's Day.)
- Hard Candy: Hayley Stark can hunt down pedos, make them think they hunted her and then convince them to kill themselves.
This wasn't approved by this thread, right? Judging by the format and wording of the write up I would assume not.
I watched this film a few years ago and can vouch that Harley is indeed a keep imo.
I can make an EP in a bit for her.
Goku Black
go ahead.
Also to nom and Rustal (No offence kazuya but you using an opinion on something you haven't even watched or isn't even true is kinda weird).
edited 4th Jun '18 1:00:43 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ok now I got 4 for Doug Judy. Going to need a few more votes if I'm going to give Doug Judy his well deserved write-up.
As with any character, there are going to be people who like and dislike him. What happens in the show is Rustel is faced with opposition from enemy forces and overcomes them via tactical and strategic maneuvers. This isn’t like TDK!Joker where people happen to get hit by cars when they’re about to shoot him. He’s pretty clear cut in my mind.
Alright, yea for House but I'm not sure on Doug... the show plays his actions in such a silly light I'm not sure he hits the Bastard part of the criteria.
Even the thing with his barber is played more like a "Lol that wasn't who we were looking for" than a "What a devious mastermind!"
Count me an abstain.Y'know what? Scratch that, it might just be I love Craig Robinson's performance but I'm willing to see him as a silly but bad enough villain like the Gentleman Thief, changing to a yea.edited 3rd Jun '18 4:10:28 PM by 43110