Amazing.
One thing: Few of the old European pagan religions are without modern-day practitioners or reconstructionists. The Greek gods, the Romans (whose deities were originally quite distinct from their Greek doppelgangers), even the Etruscans are still worshiped today, as are the Germanic/Scandinavian, Irish, Welsh, Slavic, and Finnish. And those are just the pantheons I KNOW are still being actively reverenced (though sometimes in a very watered-down, intellectualized way (especially in the US)).
Another thing: I think there should be room for groups of mortal ghosts to form their own spirit-governments (representing such religions as Scientology).
One last thing: There should be at least one African (besides Egyptian, since you already mentioned that one) spirit-government that is so similar to the Kingdom of God/Zion that they can be mistaken for one another. In fact, there should be some sort of dual citizenship between them, representing how many people can practice Christianity/Islam and traditional African religions at the same time without feeling any internal contradiction. The African spirit-government should be more fractious than Zion and each faction should preside over a specific territory. And the relationships between this African spirit-government and the Egyptian one should mirror that of France and Russia before WWI (very friendly but not TOO friendly because those West Asian spirit-governments are always trying to get a foothold in the continent and the African spirit-government doesn't like that). The American Contingent could be a faction representing the mixed religions of the diaspora (such as Vodou, Santeria, etc).
I lied, just one more thing: The Kingdom of God managed to win a thousand-year smear campaign against the old pagan gods of West Asia (the Sumerians, Assyrians, etc). As a result, this/these spirit-government/s is/are now defunct, having only a very tenuous foothold in the mortal world. Now, only a very few living mortals belong to this/these religion/s.
EDIT:
And the Church of Satan doesn't technically worship Satan as a real entity. However, there ARE other groups that DO worship the Devil. Most of these theistic satanists view Satan as a pagan god whose true nature has been distorted by the now-dominant religions of the world. Others view the Devil as Yaweh's enemy but not humankind's, and they believe he's the (anti)hero and Yaweh is the villain. A very few others actually believe he is evil, but they still believe he is not the enemy of humankind as a whole; they think he rewards those who serve him loyally and punishes those who do not.
edited 10th Oct '15 3:33:59 AM by nekomoon14
Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.
Just wondering where reincarnation fits in here, since I haven't seen anything relating to that so far. Is reincarnation a fairly instant thing (you die, and in a few days/weeks you're reborn), or do souls choosing reincarnation have a grace period of some sort? Or does it depend on the religion, as many things do?
edited 10th Oct '15 6:25:17 PM by Sharysa
Interesting contributions!
Okay, re. Nekomoon14's suggestions:
- I guess they have more of a presence in the present world than I suspected. Not a bad thing. They might have a following / spirit-citizenry comparable in size to, say, the Wizarding communities in the Potterverse: i.e., not too populous but still significant, and possibly "underground" so as not to clash with the Abrahamic / "Zionese" regime.note It's that underground status (compare again the Potterverse's Statute of Secrecy) that leads me to still classify them as governments-in-exile, albeit more influential than the average (considering their influence in modern thought and pop culture).
- Does Scientology worship the spirits of the dead? All I know about it is, frankly, Tom Cruise. EDIT: Apparently "spirits" are distinct from "souls" for them. I'll get to spiritual "biology/mechanics" later.
- Yes, there will be groups of "non-aligned" spirit-governments, or in some cases looser "spirit-societies". Politically and socially they'd occupy "inter-realm space", a little bit like seasteading micronations in international waters. Probably the same inter-realm space or "ether" occupied by spirit-stateless atheists and agnostics—but most importantly, also home to what I provisionally call "general spiritualists", who don't subscribe to organised faiths but do practice natural magic, á la wizards and witches who don't really worship gods or deities in the traditional sense.
- Why would there be a monotheistic African faith comparable to Zion? I'm not aware of its existence. Is there one independent of the Abrahamic faiths or parallel to them?
- If you're wondering, I'll try to stick mostly to existing and established faiths, so other literary myth-verses, e.g. the Potterverse, the Cthulhu Mythos, or The Dresden Files, still exist as "Muggle" books in this world, although they too will have distorted/loose basis in reality in-universe. There's a grain of truth to them but their systems were still invented independently and fictionally.
- This is a valid issue in the case of syncretic religions. Still working on the details of those, but I think, broadly, syncretic spirit-governments could be the most rebellious factions within larger spirit-realms, or else very highly autonomous "substates". Loosely speaking, for example, Folk Catholic realms would be the Hong Kong or Macau of Zion. note
- I also considered "dual spirit-citizenship" for some cases, but I'd need help to work the specific details out. There won't really be a "United Spirit Realms" equivalent to the United Nations, or if there is, it'll have far less power, given how much religious conflict there is today.
- Is it accurate to say you view (sub-Saharan) African faiths as closely related to each other to conceivably be under one spirit-state (though it may be as divisive and faction-ridden as Zion if not more)? I haven't done much research into Sub-Saharan African beliefs, could you help point me to evidence showing their interrelatedness? For sure this could be tweaked any which way; if distinct tribes' beliefs become different enough, they could technically be separate but related, like a confederation of allied spirit-states. (Even in Real Life there were confederations of tribes and small kingdoms like in Native North America and probably in real sub-Saharan Africa, so it's plausible.)
- Same goes for the American diasporic faiths, Vodou et al. They could be largely autonomous spirit-substates though their members may legally be under Zion's jurisdiction (you know, Catholic and all).
- Now those are true spirit-governments-in-exile. Possibly completely defunct if they're totally erased from history (but we wouldn't know that, would we). Or they could simply be completely powerless and are now fully relegated to the spirit world at large, like long-defunct countries, with no "diplomatic" relations to extant spirit-states.
- Well, Hell—the Satanist spirit-state—might be like Zion (i.e. Abrahamic faiths) too—divided into factions supporting its supernatural leadership in different ways. And anyway, if Hell's leadership isn't individual but collegial (collective) or rotational (picked from a certain group), you could simply insert the various types of Satan-figures. (And if my idea holds that "Satan" is just the title and not the name, then there's even more wiggle room.)
Whoo. So much ideas. I'll help get out some more later on!
Final note for now:
I just had an idea: "spirizenship" could be the spiritual/magical counterpart to "citizenship", and just as much a legal concept. Though I'm welcome to suggestions, esp. better-sounding ones, lol.
edited 13th Oct '15 9:48:05 PM by mirisu92
I want to go to there.
Re. Sharysa's suggestions:
I think it might depend on the religion. It partly also depends on the levels of consciousness present in each soul or "spirit-organism". In the Hindu spirit-state, for instance, reincarnation would be either tradition or standard procedure, and the soul (if conscious/developed enough) could negotiate "good" reincarnation terms, for instance from a lower-quality previous life to a higher-quality next life, say frog to human or dolphin. For Greek gods, their penchant of transforming humans into other animals can actually count as a sort of reincarnation, except with full previous consciousness/memories preserved, maybe.
Other religions might limit reincarnation to special cases or exemptions—in Zion, for instance, reincarnation would be largely frowned upon, possibly prohibited or largely restricted, except maybe to settle Unfinished Business. If there's substantially little change then it would be better classified as resurrection or revival.
And speaking of spirit-organisms, I'm playing with the possible idea that souls could be aggregate bodies as well—like biological cells, only supernatural. You could recombine enough of them to form an animal or human soul, and they're largely immortal, though they could be scattered and separated into individual cells. Something like the "midichlorians" from Star Wars—supposedly "bio"-indicators of the Force. Also, in this mythos "spirit cells" could be filled with a sort of "magical energy", which would determine how well a human or other animal perceives—and uses—magic.
edited 13th Oct '15 9:48:54 PM by mirisu92
I want to go to there.
Re Modern pagans: There's a thread for pagans in Troper Covens right here, and we're also a big niche on the net.
Just don't fall into the Good Old Ways trap of assuming modern pagans 1) have a thing for medieval times or 2) feel a Call to Agriculture, because just as many of us love the cities.
The Kingdom of Zion is getting a pretty harsh treatment in this story, isn't? I mean that might be your point and all but thus far the Christian faith seems to be on a very harsh light.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Re. Gaon's comment:
"The Kingdom of Zion is getting a pretty harsh treatment in this story, isn't? I mean that might be your point and all but thus far the Christian faith seems to be on a very harsh light."
This world won't be black and white. I'm thinking of a spirit-world version of Game of Thrones, so there's good and evil on every side. Plus, I did say Zion encompasses Islam and Judaism as well, since they and Christianity all share similar concepts.
So Zion is not the monolithic villain of the story, but most of its leaders in this world are greedy for power and influence, and they'll even go against each other even if in this universe they all answer to the same spirit-government. However, the Perpetual Ministry is itself not monolithic or apolitical—angels and prophets can and will take sides, favouring one faction over the other. Imagine Jesus supporting Christians, Mohammed supporting Muslims, &c.
On the other hand, though I can and do respect people's right to believe, one can't also discount that in real life the Christians have been responsible for much war and conflict throughout history, not least because the Western colonial powers were all Christian. Most of them even went into the Global South precisely to convert the locals to Christianitynote . Meanwhile, violent Islamist factions (ISIS, al-Qaeda, Taliban, &c.) are getting all the press for their own acts of war and terrorism, and as for Judaism—well, Israel is being somewhat of a bully in the Arab region, mistreating the homeless Palestinians, even if it is surrounded by Muslim majorities.
Now let me admit my personal stake:
I'm Filipino, and alone amongst Asian countriesnote , the Philippines has the dubious distinction of being majority Catholic, let alone Christian. The Spanish colonisers came in the 1500s and converted the pre-Philippine kingdoms to Christianity, in the service of the Spanish Crown and the Vatican. Clearly they succeeded enormously, but today the Philippines has become very corrupt and crime-ridden, in part due to the Catholic "culture of forgiveness"—I mean, just go to confession, say some prayers, and you're in the clear. You see this "Catholic impunity" in much of Latin America as well, where the ruling class are all Churchgoing Villains, and use their fear of God to cover up their crimes—or else they think they're God's chosen people, which gives them licence to commit whatever sins they want.
The other reason I do not approve of Spain's influence on Philippine history is because the Spanish Church destroyed most evidence of advanced pre-colonial culture and civilisation on our part. Local religions have survived elsewhere in Asia or have mixed into Buddhism and Islam, but in the Philippines they've been repressed in favour of Catholicism. Sure enough we did some of our own mixing—we pray to saints today like we used to pray to nature gods—but it still seems too "Western" to me, particularly since the saints all have their original European names.
My idea of inserting Philippine spirit-culture here is basically this: Local spirit-states existed peacefully, under ruling groups of nature deities. Then everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked. Sorry, I mean when the conquistadores arrived, and basically robbed the local gods of their power. So the pre-Philippine gods are now a Government in Exile, biding their time until they can "seize the old kingdoms that were rightfully theirs", á la the Targaryens.
In fact, going into this project I had Lovecraftian influences too, so I was thinking of "building" a subgenre I call "postcolonial cosmic horror"—essentially a Cosmic Horror Story in which colonial powers are Eldritch Abominations. This is what I meant in the OP about "spiritual colonial wars"—whilst Muggle colonial empires (call them that if you like) occupy the rest of the (Muggle) world, their churches are fighting a parallel war to seize indigenous spirit-realms. I was even thinking Christian "magic-users" could raise their own eldritch horrors—the Bible alone has tons of Eldritch Abominations, the Beasts of Revelation for instance, not to mention some of the angels in their true forms.
All of this, of course, doesn't mean that I won't give Zion some good guys too. Islam, for instance, is largely still seen as peaceful in places like Indonesia, brought largely by Muslim traders that didn't seek to conquer, unlike the Ottoman Empire, for example.note I guess the lesson is, there really are good leaders and bad leaders on every side. It just so happens that Zion's bad guys are more powerful. Or that there's more of them. Not that there aren't any good guys. (Jesus, for example, could still be a good guy, kind of like a friendlier Ned Stark.)
Sorry to rant, Gaon, but does that answer your question?
edited 11th Oct '15 11:04:23 PM by mirisu92
I want to go to there.
Oh, no. Many of them assimilate into urban cities both "Muggle" and "magical". They just prefer not to deal with "majority" spirit-governments on a regular basis. Either they're autonomous or completely independent.
So for instance if the British Wizarding community of the Potterverse existed in this world, they'd count as a spirit-society independent of Zion, but with enough political and diplomatic influence of their own. note
Still, by all means they're effectively modern, even if they wear and use things a century out of date (after all, who needs an iPod when you have magic?).
Do most people assume that of modern pagans—that they go back to being rural/medieval and literally living off the land with magic?
edited 13th Oct '15 9:50:02 PM by mirisu92
I want to go to there.
Off-topic: YAAAAAAAAAS, ANOTHER FILIPINO WRITER.
On-topic: While there is a strong trend that many pagans want to reconnect with the earth somehow (through gardening/agriculture, the eco-friendly movement, or going off-the-grid) and some of us DO have a fascination with ancient/medieval times, people tend to flanderize ALL pagans into Ren-Faire fanatics and Luddites/hippies.
For example, I want to get a few acres of land and turn it into a forest garden, but that's mostly because I need my alone time and I want to be self-sufficient, not because I think modern society sucks and we should all go back to the Good Old Ways. I love the eco-friendly movement, but I don't want society to regress back into medieval times, because 1) I am a writer and I need my laptop to write without my stories taking up half my living room. 2) I did my fucking research on the medieval times. Medieval society had bitching clothes and art, sure, but you were screwed if you were poor, a woman, or a slave/serf.
In the media, having an otherwise normal accountant or barista who believes in the Celtic gods is too boring, so they have to make pagans "interesting" by turning us into fluffy-bunny Renaissance Faire-goers or Luddites.
And THAT'S if we're not outright Satan-worshippers.
edited 12th Oct '15 1:18:57 PM by Sharysa
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You've probably got a good idea of why pagans tend to get Flanderized that way; I figure it happens for the same reason as everything else, to make it easier to differentiate.
Mirisu92 - it's very difficult to get a handle on what a story in this setting would look like, because it can functionally look like anything.
How exactly would a corporeal person enter the spirit world, and how would someone who changes their alignment be seen in their new region?
Every traditional African religion believes in a single omniscient, omnipotent creator deity (sometimes masculine, sometimes feminine, most often androgynous or hermaphroditic) who has little to no direct contact with humans. Every one also believes in a hierarchy of intermediary spirits that may or may not include ancestral spirits. If the ancestors are distinct from the intermediary spirits, they’ll usually act as go-betweens for those “demi-gods” and living humans. Technically, the Egyptian pantheon was structured in the same way a long, long time ago, but they had more cultural exchange with those West Asian religions, which is why I suggested that the Egyptian deities would have a working relationship with those gods that made the other Africans uncomfortable.
Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.
- OMG, you too?! WOOOO, go Pinoy Pride! … I'm kidding. There's more than enough of that back here. Do you live in the States now?
- Kind of a cop-out don't you think? Ordinary humans come in all shapes and sizes and occupations. No reason to think magic-users won't be—I blame the Granola Girl stereotypes. Lots of people don't necessarily need to go hippie to reach out to nature. Why, even governments are realising the value of green communities.
- I may not know much about neopagan customs, pending extensive research, but I've never really entertained the Luddite stereotype of them turning their back on modern technology. I think it ties back to the question of how much they need modern tech—like I said, with the convenience of magic, magic-users don't always have to rely on hard physics, unlike Muggles.
- So yeah, baristas, accountants, lawyers, what-have-you—I mean, you find equivalent occupations in the Potterverse, and I imagine the same will apply for this mythos I'm excited to build.
- The real world can look like anything too (almost, anyway). Different societies and different governments have different rules; that's the beauty of diversity, and I see no reason why the spirit-world should be much different.
- My idea was that moving around in the spirit world isn't solely tied to the "laws of magic", as if it were a physical or biological constant, it's more "legalistic". I imagine the rules entering the spirit world will probably vary depending on the person in question, their spirit-citizenship, and the willingness of the spirit-realm in question to accept them.
- There will, of course, be general "magical physics", just so the spirit-world at large continues to make some sense. For starters, I'd see magic as generally like the concept of energy—it can't be created or destroyed, but maybe the more people try to use it at once, the less predictable it gets, and it'll break down into erratic Wild Magic. There need to be general rules for magic use so that this supernatural "energy" remains orderly and useful.
edited 13th Oct '15 9:43:43 PM by mirisu92
I want to go to there.
It's fine to just say "I don't know yet".
I'd suggest treating magic like metaphysical electricity. Or you could go even further and treat is like the spirit realm's equivalent of the electromagnetic force.
edited 13th Oct '15 7:11:53 PM by nekomoon14
Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.
- Of course. That's why I'm building it up, and I'd like to hear others' opinions.
- I see. Here's what I think: how "human" or "connected to earth" is the creator deity? If, like the Abrahamic God, he/she/it/they are really alien and otherworldly, and don't default to human form (even if they can turn into a human), then I might portray the deity "Zion-style". Creator deities with a default human form, who influence nature more directly, are better portrayed as directly running their spirit-realms (or "theostates"; I just came up with that term this morning.)
- Lower spirits would probably also manage day-to-day governance or administration of said "theostates". Even ancestor spirits could be tapped to run local districts or something.
- The reason Zion includes all the Abrahamic religions is because they're directly related; one evolved from or into another—in this case both Christianity and Islam are offshoots of Judaism, and they share a common "verse". If the same is true of the African faiths—that they all trace their descent from a "common ancestor faith"—then I can see the "unitary theostate" idea as plausible. If, however, they just developed in parallel, with mutual influencing but not direct branching off, then I see them more as largely autonomous theostates sharing "spirit-government" resources, akin to a confederation. note In that case, they could still have multiple supreme deities, but they might just be sentient cosmic forces, not the more "corporeal" gods of truly polytheistic systems.
- Yes, something like that. I understand there are precedents for this sort of thing (e.g., the Polynesian concept of mana
, or "spiritual energy"), so magic in this universe could work a little like that.
- Then again, scientific concepts of physical forces have evolved over the centuries too, so the study of magical forces could also take on different theories over time. Might sound like a cop-out to some, but I think it's more realistic that way. It also avoids the problem of "inflexibility" in understanding magic—we won't get stuck trying to bend plot rules around a rigid model of magic, to the detriment of story possibilities.
- For example, vampires: do they burn up in the sun or not? I can accommodate conflicting ideas about vampires in this world, simply by saying that they don't all burn up in the sunlight, that "lethal sunburn" is just a vampire-specific disease or genetic condition, and "healthier" vampires can stand the sun just fine.
edited 13th Oct '15 9:40:43 PM by mirisu92
I want to go to there.
Some more worldbuilding and ground rules.
General Concepts on Magic
- Current/"updated" theory:
- Basically a "fundamental force" in the spirit world, like an electromagnetic force in the physical world. It's effectively spiritual energy. May influence and be influenced by emotions and mental activity.
- Cannot be created nor destroyed, but can grow more or less predictable. It responds in feedback loop to pockets of conflict—it grows more chaotic when several users channel it in the service of conflict or war, making it harder to consistently predict the results of magic use. Conversely, if peace and harmony reign in a locality, magic is more stable and will generate more reliable results.
- Influence on life and nature:
- Spiritual energy manifests in cell-like basic units called "crystals".note Crystals, much like cells, compose souls and spiritual beings.
- Most living creatures are basically mixtures of biomatter and spirit. Certain creatures, however, have unusually high levels of spirit-energy, or else pick up lots of crystals, either by exposure to magic "hotspots", transfer from other sources, or genetic inheritance. This would explain primarily "mythical" creatures, like dragons, basilisks, vampires, &c.
- Spirit-beings, of course, have much higher concentrations of "spirit energy", and less biomatter; some of them can assemble surrounding biomass to create corporeal forms.
- Nature vs. nurture? Are magic-users born or made?:
- Certain places in the physical world act as natural hotspots for spirit-energy—e.g. forests, and areas full of life in general. Artificial hotspots can be created, however (think of the Ghostbusters building, or Haunted Houses in general). Places with historically high levels of magic activity could also count; Salem, for instance.
- Magesnote are generally born, since their families acquire high levels of "crystals" via exposure over long periods. It is possible to learn magic, however, with repeated exposure and willingness to learn. Needless to say, it's easier in times of prosperity and peace; good luck trying to become a mage when a wizarding war's going on. But even then, it's not impossible.
- Think of the magic "power acquisition" process as a sort of middle way between Lamarck Was Right and Darwinian evolution; it can be picked up without previous background, but it takes effort to "naturalise" it into one's soul.
The Masquerade
- Not everyone in the world, of course, knows that magical communities exist. There are different levels of magic-awareness in this worldnote :
- Type 1 = "Muggle" worshippers. They follow the religion they're born or converted into, but aren't made aware that supernatural governments actually run these religions, or that certain people know and use magic.
- Type 1.5 = Muggle-types who are constantly involved with the supernatural, and know for certain that the spirit-world exists, but aren't themselves magic-users. Often spend time on the borderline between physical and spirit worlds.
- Type 2 = Mages, or magic-users in general. They may or may not be affiliated with a theostate (a spirit-government with one or more ruling deities), or may be independent "general spiritualists", who study and apply magic, but without allegiance to a specific god or gods. Also, there are several subclasses of mages according to ability:
- general users with general occupationsnote ;
- users of violent/enforcement magic—think Aurors with emphasis on police and military power;
- clairvoyants (seers and mind readers)—could be considered professionals);
- diviners, who exclusively summon other spiritual beings to harness magical power.note
Again, most of the terminologies are tentative, and are open to suggestions.
P.S. I have a problem with folders here. Why can't I collapse them?
edited 13th Oct '15 11:10:32 PM by mirisu92
I want to go to there.
Like reflections in the glass!
This seems very interesting but I have a few questions (American speaking here)
- The United states had a affinity with splinter groups and infighting on both the political and religious fronts (The Mormons for example are the more prolific Christian sect I know that is created in America, and there is also the existing Catholic and Protestant forms,) Islam also has thier sects as well. Will they be referenced in the story or will you keep things as a generalized Kingdom of God with only 3 factions? I assume that these subfactions would be implemented since you compared it Game of Thrones
- How would The Fundamantalist be treated here? I assume that they would be villains because they're well Fundamentalists.
- Finally I must also point out that Hinduism and Shintoism don;t seem to be extinct, but there are overlaps with Bhuddhism (especialy for the former) do you plan on lumping these three together or have them as separate "states"?
- How will you fir the Creation Myth aspect of must mythologies into this?
- Will you base the Goverment of Zeon's factions off the governments of the respect corporal region (Middle East for Islam, United States for Christians, Israel for Jews, etc)
I realize that some of these questions might be loaded so you don;t have to answer them if you don't want to. (ell the oens regarding Zeon at least)
- I admit that has to be sneaked in somehow, plus of course entire cosmologies may need to be "cheated in"—for instance, the Hindu idea of the world resting on elephants standing on a turtle. My argument: localise them. Each Creation Myth only actually applies to the small part of the world a specific faith is born in. Either that, or they're sort of "myths-within-myths", semi-factual stories and legends held up as sacred even within the existing spirit world.note
- As for the actual creation, I suppose I could generalise it such that cosmic forces from various faiths shaped it over billions of years, and came together to form the world we know today.note Meanwhile, smaller-scale acts of creation are actually continuous—they never quite ended—and manifest themselves in many natural processes, like evolution, or geological changes. And gods from the various theostates simply pitch in and build things in their little corners of the world at large; it's their egos leading them all to lay claim to creating the whole world, which isn't necessarily the case.
- Long story short, things will be very chaotic in the Kingdom of God, to say the least. It's split into major groups, split into factions, split into subfactions, &c.—there'll be so much infighting because the Perpetual Ministry (the angels) and the Council of Prophets aren't collectively interested in unity, they just want their subjects' loyalty. Think of "divide and conquer" strategies used by real-world colonial empires to keep colonies in line. Yes, a lot like Game of Thrones.
- Sub-governments, effectively, yes. Although the actual power centre—above and beyond all the factions, and the actual seat of the Kingdom of God—will be, naturally, in Jerusalem. Or at least the main entrance to Zion is there. Meanwhile the factional government seats are spread all over the world: the Roman Catholic Church in the Vaticannote , the Church of England in London, the Mormon Church in Salt Lake City, Shia Islam in Tehran, the Iglesia ni Cristo in Manila, &c. &c.
edited 14th Oct '15 5:24:10 AM by mirisu92
I want to go to there.
Semi-off-topic: I'm currently working on a short story set in this mythos-verse. It's got a pretty Lovecraftian tone to it, and later I might ask for advice/tips in editing it, if there's a forum here for writing edits.
Tentatively titled "Protection Racket", the gist of the story is that a Catholic politician signed a contract, unawares, with an angel from the Perpetual Ministry, promising to deliver 500 new human souls monthly. The contract states he has to turn over "control" of these souls to Zion, in exchange for which, the Ministry gives him a lifetime of landslide victories at every election.
However, the politician, who is a "Type 1 Muggle" (i.e. he's not aware of Zion's existence), doesn't remember signing the contract, and claims he has no way of recording his soul-collection. He doesn't even know how he bagged the souls he did; apparently, he actually delivered some without consciously knowing it. The angel doesn't take this as an excuse, and gives him one more month to deliver.
The politician doesn't, and the angel kills him by appearing in his true, Eldritch Abomination form, and frightening him off a bridge. Before that, though, the memory comes back to him, and he starts regretting everything—right before the angel shows up.
The driver with him survives to tell the story to a paranormal reporter (a borderline Type 2 Muggle, who's more aware of the supernatural). The whole story is effectively the reporter's retelling.
The central idea here would be that: a) Zion's government, the Perpetual Ministry, can enter into contracts with its spirit-citizens—even the "unaware people"; and b) most angels in the Ministry can be such huge Jerkasses that they can alter the terms of their contracts even as the human party is reading it, effectively Gaslighting the contractee. (Supernatural paper, you see.)
Thoughts or suggestions?
edited 14th Oct '15 7:21:27 AM by mirisu92
I want to go to there.
The TA Rs might, then, make more sense (in the context of your setting) as a confederation of separate theostates.
The TARS in real life can’t be directly traced like the Abrahamic and Indian religions, so I can’t say they’re necessarily “branched off” each other in the same way. Very little actual research has been done about these religions; in fact, more is known about Arctic religion/s than African. The "God" of Africa is totally impersonal but is usually depicted in a humanized way for the sake of relatability; they are more likely to manifest as a serpent than a person or other animal. They're definitely sentient cosmic forces rather than anthropomorphic personifications. And while they dictate traditional orthopraxy as Zion's God does, they aren't necessarily as "alien".
edited 14th Oct '15 7:36:52 PM by nekomoon14
Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.
TARs?—the African religions, you mean?
Well, yeah, I suppose there could be one pan-African supreme being, or an undefined number. It/they could even have multiple "personalities", further muddling where to draw the line—but since they don't directly run the pan-African theostates, leaving it to lower gods and spirit-beings, then I imagine the loose confederation model could work.
In consequence, it'll be a total free-for-all there, even more fractious than Zion, like you suggested. And it doesn't help that Zion's own factions are meddling in the whole affair as well, thanks to inroads by Islamic conquest and Christian missionary colonialism.
To everyone else here, I'd welcome contributions and research from others better-versed in their local mythologies/faiths. The main "rule" is just that they're all under some sort of theostate or other spirit-world government. I imagine also that many stories in this mythos would likely revolve around mages from all faiths, as well as the Type 1.5 Muggles regularly immersed in the spirit world, and the more sapient creatures and spirit-beings to boot.
edited 14th Oct '15 11:45:27 PM by mirisu92
I want to go to there.
Oh hai, where'd everyone go?
I want to go to there.
Still paying attention![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
But nothing new to add.
Haha, thanks for being blunt. Even I'm still quiet, just building up more details of this proposed 'verse.
But in case others are interested in helping worldbuild (and in future maybe contribute stories, á la the shared Whateley Universe or other Shared Universes in general, I've been trying to sketch out the general lines of spirit-world history.
One idea I had was that the United States would have at least two "covenate" governments (that is, magical governments independent of deities; in my terminology, "non-theostates"). I was thinking of an Atlantic Covenate (capital = Salem) and a Pacific Covenate (capital = Seattle or elsewhere in the Pacific Northwest).
Still working out the "degree of union" between these two; not clear yet whether they're mutually independent, or co-equal governments in a larger federal/confederate setup, like U.S. state governments in the "Muggle" world.
Another note: The late 1600s–1970s would be the high point of "covenate formation", whilst the 1980s and later would see the resurgence of theostates (inspired by rising Real Life religious fundamentalism).
More later! :D
I want to go to there.
Hi!
I'm new here, and I don't have too much of a fantasy background (sans Harry Potter and a little Night Vale), but I'm thinking of slowly building up an Urban Fantasy mythos, ideally with other contributors willing to add to it in future. I don't have specific stories yet, so I'm focusing on the worldbuilding aspect first. I'll try to be as concise as possible.
Okay, main premise: Crossover Cosmology / All Myths Are True.
Specifically, all coherent religions and belief systems have basis in reality—and in fact have functioning "realms" or "governments" beyond the physical earth. Believers or followers of a religion are considered "spiritual citizens" of said religion, like they would be "legal citizens" of a sovereign state in the "corporeal" world.
Example: If you're a practicing and devout Christian (or Muslim, or Jew), you belong to the "Kingdom of God", which in this mythos would be a real, functioning jurisdiction, except with divine laws. (I have a draft story where it's called the "Government of Zion", for instance. So for simplicity's sake, henceforth "Kingdom of God" will be referred to as "Zion" in this post.)
Long story short, I'm thinking of supernatural governments possibly as complex as the Ministry of Magic, with their own Constitutions (e.g. the Ten Commandments for Abrahamic faiths), statutory laws, administrative agencies, deliberative bodies (legislatures, parliaments, or simple councils), and even their own armed forces and "divine law enforcement".
I'll stop here for now. More to come later, especially about magic-users under the various faiths.
edited 13th Oct '15 11:08:56 PM by mirisu92
I want to go to there.