Needs Help: Jesus Saves

Jesus Saves has a rather hostile description—the first several paragraphs, and the picture, are all mocking the trope. In fact, the first bit, and the picture, are only a list of puns on the trope name/Christian slogan.

Details about why some people dislike a trope are usually better reserved for the later parts of a writeup, rather than dominating it, IMHO.

(I'm only talking about the trope writeup here; TRS is not the proper forum to debate the merits or flaws of Christian doctrines of forgiveness of sins.)

Good catch. There's "we like funny" and there's "we're going to try to be funny at the expense of the trope description". This is the latter.

The whole trope description needs to be rewritten; it's never clearly defined what, exactly, the trope is. The first half is jokes, the second half appears to be a theology essay. But what's the trope?

edited 26th Jun '14 11:01:58 AM by Madrugada

I question the purpose behind this page myself.

edited 26th Jun '14 12:33:10 PM by Willbyr

The trope is about a story using Jesus or one of the Abrahamitic gods as saviours in a plot.

The name, image, and first... dozen or so lines made me think it was about the stock pun where Jesus saves (by blocking a goal, or hitting CTRL+S).

The laconic made me think it was about someone taking advantage of religion and thinking they're going to heaven just for accepting Jesus.

The description made me think it seems to be about Christian Divine Intervention, nothing about "salvation" in the going to heaven or sinner sense.

So... yeah. That's an issue. Of the three, I think only the Laconic is really a trope. The first isn't a trope so much as a stock pun, and the third is just Divine Intervention but more specific. But I can think of plenty of examples where a religious person does bad because they believe they can be saved by accepting Jesus.

edited 26th Jun '14 12:52:15 PM by Larkmarn

What a mess. I'm inclined to scrap the whole thing.

Definitely Wick Check time. The earliest I can complete one is late Sat-Sun. Anyone faster?

Yeah, even if we pick a tropeable definition and stick with it, I just don't think the name will ever be indicative. It's kind of like Battle Royale With Cheese... cool name, but it can mean too much it'll never be a GOOD name.

Wick check of usage:

• Acts of the Apostles: Referring the theological doctrine (since this page is a branch from The Bible)
• Apocalypse: ZCE
• Chick Tracts: Jesus saves the right kind of Christians, and only them.
• Children Of The Last Days: ZCE
• Christian Nation: This is more of Join or Die than Jesus Saves.
• Davey and Goliath: ZCE
• Dream of the Rood: ZCE
• El Chavo del ocho: Apparently the theme of one of its songs, or something. Otherwise, ZCE.
• Flying House: ZCE
• Gabriel Knight: A pothole, which doesn't even explain anything about the trope.
• Jane Eyre: A character gains redemption through repentance.
• Lady Audley's Secret: Same as above
• Left Behind: ZCE. Only states the aftereffects of the apparent trope and doesn't say anything about how the trope applies.
• Medieval II: Total War: Apparently a gameplay system where having a high Piety rating protects you from enemies and allows you to kill heretics more easily. (Related to Clap Your Hands If You Believe)
• 19 Kids and Counting: ZCE
• Paradise Lost: ZCE. But I think it's talking about a literal Jesus character that appears in the work.
• Savatage: A song title.
• Sinfest: A weblinked example. I haven't checked the content.
• Six: The Mark Unleashed: ZCE
• Streets: A Rock Opera: Song/Album title
• Stryper: ZCE, but presumably the same as above.
• Superbook: ZCE. Makes a reference about the New Testament, and Flying House above.
• TBN: ZCE
• The 700 Club: ZCE
• The Crossroad: A character finds peace after repentance.
• The Four Gospels: ZCE, but definitely talking about the theological doctrine itself (and not whatever trope definition, if any, this is supposed to be).
• The Prayer Warriors: Something about Jesus saving people before the Prayer Warriors gets them or something.
• Unwinder's Tall Comics: Stock joke about Easy Evangelism and Character Derailment?

That's all from the work pages. None of them seem to have a proper definition. I'm inclined to cut...

It has 52 wicks and 56 inbounds, by the way. Do we need to be concerned about those?

edited 26th Jun '14 6:51:36 PM by theAdeptRogue

......what is this I don't even

Seriously though, the description is all over the place, and I can't parse what it's trying to say this trope is. And the wick check(thanks Rogue!) shows nobody else can either, so I agree on cut

Cut.

If there's a trope hiding here at all, I think it's the Laconic, something like "it's a plot point that Faith=Redemption and Lack of Faith=No Redemption for You! no matter what else you do."

50+ inbounds is more than we like to break, but honestly, I think that the joke may be a more solid trope than the theological one. It might bear running through YKTTW if we can come up with something that's got some meat to it.

That just feels like Faith–Heel Turn writ large, maybe with some Discussed Trope on the side.

Mmmm... Not really. This isn't "Not having Faith makes you become evil or act bad." It's a redemption thing, not a behavior thing.

I think.
Maybe.

edited 26th Jun '14 8:42:17 PM by Madrugada

So... more like the inverse of Faith–Heel Turn where a character earns redemption by gaining (or regaining) their faith? Because that seems to be the only usage that sort-of makes sense.

ETA: No. Sorry, scratch that. We already have a trope for that — Heel–Faith Turn.

edited 26th Jun '14 9:03:24 PM by theAdeptRogue

Oops, I was mixing up Faith–Heel Turn and Heel–Faith Turn.

Hmmmmm...making it a redirect to Heel–Faith Turn might be the best thing to do.

Heel–Faith Turn has little to do with Jesus Saves save the religious aspects.

Jesus Saves, as I said, is about Jesus or other Abrahamitic gods literally saving someone.

Heel–Faith Turn is about faith or religious experiences flipping somone's allegiances.

Is that tropeworthy, though? The definition is very vague beyond the trope name being used in a literal sense anyhow.

Well, it's tropeworthy in that it's Divine Intervention, which we have. Is it distinct? I can't see why it would be.

Yeah, I would think so. It's frequently used by religious works as a way to advance religion, for example, or to exploit religion for storytelling purposes.

That said, the wicks aren't very impressive and the description needs cleaning.

eta: Divine Intervention is more akin to a Deus ex Machina trope and more general insofar as it applies to any divinity.

edited 27th Jun '14 7:15:00 AM by SeptimusHeap

Using Septimus's definition:

• Jesus or other Abrahamitic gods literally saving someone

I think it's tropeworthy, recognizing that it is only a used in a niche category: Overtly religious or clearly allegorical works, or those that use an Abrahamitic-esque Crystal Dragon Jesus absolutely straight.

But as Too Rare to Trope says,

It's never going to be a trope of legend, but I think we can get it to at least "Healthy" standards.

edited 27th Jun '14 7:34:45 AM by Madrugada

Any attempt to document religious literature expressing religious views would have to be carefully monitored keep out the type of snark that the current page is widespread on this page.

It isn't our job to mock religious or to debate theology.

Yes. And? That's no reason to not make the page.

I don't think that it's a widespread enough problem to warrant special measures, but yeah, this page will need a substantial description rewrite both for mocking and clarity reasons.