- The Wicked Queen
- Maleficent
- Ursula - Now that I think about it, one of the ghosts had wild Medusa-like hair that reminds me of her.
- Gaston
- Jafar
- Frollo
- Shan Yu
- Clayton
- Scar- Some of them looked quite animilistic. Also, if we take the Hercules joke he must have died a pretty long time ago. The lack of humans may imply the film took place before mankind even evolved.
- Then Scar would have had to be a pretty old lion in order to have been alive before mankind existed and yet still be killed by Hercules. It could be that, since he was killed by the hyenas, he made a deal like Facilier and brought back by the friends on the other side only to lose out to the demigod.
- OR, the Lion King took place RIGHT before humans came about, and Hercules was the first man.
- That makes no sense. Hercules clearly wasn't the first man, as we see Ancient Greece that has been populated long before Hercules.
- Better, and not messing with timelines, Scar died to the hyenas, and made a deal with dark forces to be returned to life, impervious to mortal weapons. The forces obliged, and Scar became the Nemian Lion, which is the actual lion impervious to blades and arrows that Hercules in myth had to fight, and skinned with it's own claws to make a cloak. The Nemian Lion was a rampaging monster, killing people. So Scar gets his deal, and has only vague shadowy memories of his life, but knows that he must kill, to pay the FOTOS. Hercules gets called in, and Scar gets his double death when a quasi-divine hero chokes him to death.
- Then Scar would have had to be a pretty old lion in order to have been alive before mankind existed and yet still be killed by Hercules. It could be that, since he was killed by the hyenas, he made a deal like Facilier and brought back by the friends on the other side only to lose out to the demigod.
- Ratigan - See above.
- Rourke - Just about, he died in the 1910's.
- Sa'Luk
- Alternately, one of the shadows looked like the cat, who also happened to be voiced by Keith David.
- Then what does that make the one that looks like Jack Skellington?
- Jack's already dead. And yeah, not evil, but we never do find out where Facilier's really goin'.
- If he's not really evil, that could be it - he could be the one tasked by the Loas to keep an eye on Facilier.
- Someone made a very cool fanart based on this theory.
- Bonus points if Claude Frollo also shows up, absolutely terrified because he's met the real Hellfire IN PERSON.
- I'm on it!
- That would make sense given that 1926 minus 197 years would mean that Mama Odie was born roughly in 1729.
- Since the good doctor sold his soul to the FOTOS for power to make his life easier, they thought it would be a nice bit of Laser-Guided Karma to have him reincarnate as a Proud Warrior Race Guy and force him to gather souls the old-fashioned way...with lots and lots of plasma to the face. Even after his Heel–Face Turn at the end of Halo 2, he's still providing the FOTOS with Covenant souls, assuming they're not that picky. Besides, destroying all sentient life means there won't be any souls left in the long run for the FOTOS to take.
- He seems to have emotions, which would rule out being a Nobody. I'll grant you, the Nobodies usually seem pretty emotional, despite what King Mickey suggested, but the genuine, desperate fear as he was being dragged to The Other Side seemed pretty legit.
- Irrelevant, but it was Yen Sid who said they were emotionless, not King Mickey.
- While I'm not necessarily arguing against this point, as he is too emotional for a Nobody, I'd like to point out that Demyx and Vexen seemed quite afraid of death.
- On the other hand, Xemnas is quite hammy despite what you'd expect. Facilier could be doing a similar thing, and over-compensating on mimicking his "original" personality. This WMG otherwise seems pretty legit to this troper, if only because the FOTOS have always reminded her of the Heartless.
- Facilier accomplishes his goals? That's just fine with the Friends; they get a boatload of souls to boost their power, and they can take Facilier later as he keeps increasing both their power and his own through deals. However, Facilier was also the Friends' earthly agent and appeared to have intelligence the collective lacked, perhaps because of the alien thought processes of dark beings and dead souls; rather than simply killing Facilier as punishment for failing them, the Friends absorbed him mind, body, and soul into their collective, regaining the power and knowledge they gave him plus interest. Facilier still lives as a shadow being on the Other Side, aiding his fellow Friends further and waiting for another voodoo user to come along, willing to make a deal...
Let's compare the two:
- Odie is quite obviously a kind and generous woman, but besides that, she is also incredibly self-reliant and clever-both traits associated with Pentacle mages. She is a bit weaker, mystically speaking, then Facilier, but not because of lack of talent-she's chosen the hard-but-moral way of gaining strength and power, rather than selling her soul (and everyone else's) out to the Exarchs (represented by the shadow demons).
- Facilier, on the other hand, is a greedy Classic Villain with absolutely no concern for the Muggle populous, caring only about himself and his own power-while hypocritically relying on the Exarchs to feed it. What's more, he's petty-he doesn't care about ruling the world, he cares about saving his own skin while making a pretty penny doing so. This, ultimately, leads to his Karmic Fate Worse than Death-his own lack of ability to realize that other people care about their friends, unlike him, leads to the Exarchs being thoroughly defeated by a mortal. You Have Failed Me doesn't begin to explain their attitude towards this.
- Better yet, both Dr. Facillier and Mama Odie are Sin-Eaters
- You thought so too?! I knew I was not the only one!
- How about Changelings? The Friends on the Other Side... well, I don't think I have to elaborate.
- Better yet, both Dr. Facillier and Mama Odie are Sin-Eaters
The little echo of 'almost there' could take on another meaning in this context, couldn't it? Even their character designs have some points of commonality. Imagine a gaunt version of Tiana's Father. (ironic, given his love of food....
- Tiana's father died a poor man who never made his dream come true he could have been recruited by the Friends On The Other Side in exchange for coming back to life. He wanted to use voodoo to provide for his family like he used to but....The Dark Side Will Make You Forget.
- Any Touhou character who tried to do what the people on the Other Side did would have to be suicidal, since Reimu (or her 1920's equivalent, or in a pinch Yukari) will probably just start exterminating for real. It is more likely the "Other Side" is the Disgaean Netherworld, and therefore Dr. Facilier will be turned into a Prinny. Which is probably ironic.
- Then again, his name could refer to the yukkurii.
- How? Facilier's in his mid-40s and probably of a similar age to Big Daddy
- Given that "magical life extension" is explicitly available in the movie's canon, it's possible that LeBouf had previously gotten a booster shot of hoodoo for a long life and money, possibly through his son.
- Alternate theory: Facilier is LeBouf's illegitimate half-brother. Explains just about as much as the other theory and takes account their similar ages.
- Alternate alternate theory: Foe Romance Subtext.
- This please. I demand Fanfic. If there must be slash in this fandom, let it be this.
- How? Facilier's in his mid-40s and probably of a similar age to Big Daddy
He probably is forbidden to outright deceive anyone. (Though he can help someone else make a deception.) Notice that at no time in "Friends on the Other Side" does he lie. He tells Naveen that there's green in his future and he'll be free to hop around from place to place. Lawrence is told he'll become "Exactly the man you always wanted to be". Note that he ends the song by saying he's not to blame if Naveen and Lawrence aren't satisfied. The Friends on the Other Side are the one's who imposed such a rule.
- Mama Odie is repeatedly referred to as "Queen of the Bayou". Dr. Facilier said that he was a royal on his mother's side. Coincidence?
- Yes because when he said that he held up a shrunken head with a crown on it. He was clearly lying.
- Or alternatively he was still telling the truth. And was holding up a family heirloom. So to speak.
- The head was his evil grandmother. His mother was good, so still rebellion, and Odie has gotten past all that rebellion stuff because she dug a little deeper. And is his x-times-great-grandmother. And yes, this means the above troper is correct, it was an heirloom.
- I'd believe it. Both greatly resemble members of The Proud Family.
- This troper believes it too!
- In an earlier script "Dr. Facilier would not just be a dark wizard who wants to conquer New Orleans with the help of his friends, he would have been Mama Odie's son, who followed the path of the dark arts unlike his mother. In this same script, there was to be a showdown between the two of them, which would have converged into a major battle during the Mardi Gras."(Source: Disney Wiki) In an alternate universe where this came to pass, even if Facilier were bad would Mama Odie really be driven to KILL HER OWN SON? WTF Disney!!
- Considering Mama Odie was 197 years old, making Facilier her son would raise some serious timeline issues.
- Considering Mama Odie is 197 years old, it's entirely possible that Faciler is similarly long lived and this wouldn't cause any issue with the timeline.
- It's also possible that Facilier's mother was Mama Odie's great-etc. granddaughter; that would jive well enough with his claim to be royal on his mother's side too.
- Also, it seems likely that voodoo practitioners age differently from normal people. Most people half Mama Odie's age wouldn't be able to put on a huge song and dance number like that.
- Considering Mama Odie was 197 years old, making Facilier her son would raise some serious timeline issues.
- I assumed Faciler and Mama Odie were just working with different Loa: I could see Mama Odie being a disciple of Damballa or Diejuste while Facilier was conniving with Baron Kriminel or Kalfu.
- Except Kalfu isn't evil at all, though one could say that Facilier isn't necessarily purely evil either, just power-hungry and likely desperate due to poverty. There are spirits one could work with in Voodoo that take the shape of shadow animals, and that seems to be what Facilier is working with in the later half of the movie. It could still be Kalfu, as he allows ALL manner of workings to pass by him if he can be bothered, it's just hard to tell with law because they don't work with the same system of morality that humans do.
- I've always assumed they were both using the same entities, but used different approaches, with Mama Odie using them in a more benevolent way. That said, it could be that, for different uses, different prices, and that Facilier's particular sort of magic has human souls as the needed sacrifice.
- Seeing how the movie doesn't use any real-life Voodoo imagery or symbols for very good reasons it's safe to assume that the "voodoo" used in the film actually are two wholly different systems. Facilier got his powers by making deals with devils and invoking the power of demons while Mama Odie invokes the power of nature.
- Actually, there are a lot of real-life Voodoo symbols and imagery in the movie. Facilier in general is based around the image of Baron Samedi; the skull mask in "Friends on the Other Side" is a huge give away. There is also a flag in his store with the veve for Ezili Freda on it, and the snakes holding Naveen down could be a nod to Damballah. There are also some symbols floating by in green during the end of the song, some of which seemed legit but where going a bit fast for this troper to tell. In the end... Facilier seems to be using not lwa, but a different type of Voodoo spirit which usually takes the form of shadow animals, which is made obvious in the scene where he sends the shadows after Naveen and Tiana and they take the shape of animals.
- Maybe Mama Odie's FOTOS is Evangeline? Instead of making deals for what people want she grants people what they need if they're willing to work for it. Everyone who makes a wish on her gets a happy ending.
- On the audition list, they did mention that they were looking for someone with a Creole accent.
- That sounds twenty times better than how they inserted Heartless into the Mulan world.
- Could be Organization Thirteen mixed into this as well.
He switched sides, run off to the real world, and did battle with her ever since.
- ...that's just too perfect.
- And come to think of it, weren't three of the "friends" little dolls with button-eyes?
- The Cat even has the same voice actor!
- Someone please write this fic RIGHT NOW.
- oh and to add more awesome sauce to this wiborn is the great Grand son of Tiana and Naveen his great aunt being a child that went missing explaining why Tiana and Naveen had no more children after their twin daughters as it hurt too much if they lost another child and kept their remaining daughter away from the door that claimed the other.
- Impossible - In voodoo you cannot acquire 'more' power, you can only get as much as you can trade for - that's why Facilier ended up in trouble; he traded for more than he had to give.
Dr Facilier (or the Shadow Man) had been interested in the occult during his life, but something happened (anything from sickness to murder to just an accident) and he was dead. The tombstone you saw near the end was his but it was normal. No face, maybe even no name if no one knew who he was. Just a date of death.
When Dr Facilier was on the other side, he met the "Friends on the Other Side." He convinced them to give him more time in the world of the living. In return, they demanded that he give them souls equal in worth to however much they demanded for the initial revive and the continued life-span. The interest tacked on by how long he was "alive" for was quite high, so Facilier quickly thought up a plan to get control of the city and sacrifice everyone in it to his Friends. At first, he may have planned to get the girl to give something to him in return for money or power, but when he read in the paper about the Prince, that was too good of a chance to pass up.
Either because of side effect of coming back to life in that manner or to help keep an eye on him, the Friends made Dr. Facilier's shadow come to life as well. When Dr Facilier was dragged into the maw of the giant mask, they left his horrified face on his tombstone as a final insult to him.
- To add to this... His semi-skeletal face seen during the "I hope you're satisfied" bit is his magic failing to keep the charade of a completely living being, revealing a magically reanimated skeleton that is still on its way to being revived fully.
- Eh, except that the skull mask is a huge symbol of the Gede Lwa, specifically Baron Samedi. It's pretty clear that was who Facilier was modeled after.
- More specifically, he was Jafar. The personality isn't quite the same, but who knows what effect being dead for centuries might have?
- Given 1: Mama Odie's only companion appears to be her snake. WMG Given: Mama Odie is married. Conclusion: She's married to the snake. Your logic fails. She could be widowed. Juju's relationship with is closer to that of Belle and the dog-turned-footstool - a pet and appliance when necessary. Mama Odie seems the type to rule any roost, but that seems to be going a little far.
- Notice that the above above says Juju seems like a possible candidate. No one said she had to be married to him.
- Perhaps the remains of her husband were the eyeballs and jaw in those jars?
- This troper just thought the same thing! The jaw was even "smiling"!
- Those are probably her's. Notice that Mama Odie is blind and toothless, yet has eyes and teeth in a jar?
- Now that's just disturbing!
- It's also possible she is spiritually married to a lwa she serves; sometimes lwa do ask practitioners to "wed" them as a show of devotion.
- Not to mention some of the lyrics in his song:
- If you relax it will enable me to do/anything I please...
- Naveen: "He was VERY charismatic!"
- There is also a flag in the background with the veve for Ezili Freda on it. She is known for being protective of gay men.
Dr. Facilier has his friends from the other side take the form of shadows. Oogie seems to be able to control his shadow to sing in the beginning song in Nighmare, so this troper's idea is that Dr. Facilier's "friends" decided to give him A Fate Worse Than Death - being trapped in a gigiantic burlap sack with living bugs as guts. This drives Facilier mad, making him less savvy, more sadistic, and lowered the quality of his grammar. So now Dr. Facilier is double dead first killed when the tailsman was broken, then when he was torn apart.
- But he's not voiced by a big lipped alligator
- On the other hand, the fact that the sack isn't his real body, and that his soul was placed in it, could explain why he's so easy to bring back from the dead in the games.
- Barrel: "How hard could it be?
- Join me Tiana, and I will make your restaurant the greatest in New Orleans! Or else you will die!
- That's pretty much right. Of course Naveen was just a formality. The whole plan was to get to Big Daddy's fortune by using a stooge to marry his daughter. But because of the way the spell works they needed Naveen alive, so he was turned into a frog because he would have been easier to deal with like that, or so Facilier thought. Facilier isn't the Enchantress, he wasn't trying to teach Naveen a lesson, or anything.
- Naveen was too intelligent. Lawrence would be far easier to control, hence why his deal was with Lawrence, and he just screwed Naveen over.
- Yeah, I thought this was pretty much canon. Naveen was just a tool to aid in the plot, but Lawrence was the one carrying it out. Also I got the impression once he was done with Lawrence, he intended to hand him over to his Friends in his place. "I look deep within your heart and soul... You do have a soul, don'tcha Lawrence?"
- So had she made the deal, she wouldn't have paid a price, but everyone else in New Orleans would have. Plus she wouldn't have been able to enjoy it knowing she betrayed Naveen, left him trapped as a frog, and let Charlotte marry an impostor (and therefore let Facilier kill Mr. LaBouff)... all of which Facilier knew and would have laughed in her face about later. That sure would have been a depressing ending, all right.
- On a more cheerful note, it's doubtful that Tiana would simply go about running her restaurant and just leave Naveen and Charlotte and her friends and family in danger like that. Even if she gave back the talisman and accepted the offer, she might pretend to go along with it, but would probably still warn Charlotte that "Naveen" was a fake and keep the real Naveen with her to find another princess. If Charlotte never marries the fake Naveen, Facilier would never get control of New Orleans, leastwise not how he has planned to.
- There is a type of spirit in Voodoo that takes the shape of a shadow, specifically animals. These are usually personable to one practitioner, as they are made to work for that specific person. The reason why they would be dragged into the grave with Facilier would be because he is their source, so to speak; they are tied to him, so if he goes, so would they.
- Look at the graves around Facilier as he says "I still got that froggy prince locked away"- you can see some of the shadows surrounding him, leering menacingly.
- The female one might be his sister, and the dolls might be ones his mother made for him... just to add to this theory.
- It could also be that he employed spirits to work for him; Voodoo does have such a concept in its beliefs. That would explain why they'd come at a mere whistle, yet turn on Facilier when he seems to be losing control of the situation.
- OR he stole the head from a Maldonian cemetery.
- Or, maybe, Facilier's ancestors reigned on one of the African empires until their empire was conquered by a rival one (or they were just captured in one battle) and were sold into slavery to some European. We don't even need the FOTOS to tell Facilier for him to know: if it happened sufficiently late (i.e. being deported in late 1807, before the ban on importation of slaves took effects), Facilier's enslaved ancestors may have managed to preserve the memory until a mr. Facilier bought them and either freed them for some reason (that could include having a son from one of them, from which our Facilier would descend if we take as valid the WMG on him being a once rich creole) or was forced to let them free due the Emancipation Proclamation.
- And Mama Odie lived on to become Suga Mama.
- So that makes Juju Puff, right?
- Alternate explanation: Oscar Proud is an identity created by Dr. Facilier for another get-rich-quick scheme to pay off his "debt". The reason Proud Snacks taste so awful is that every bite gives a piece of your soul to the FOTOS.
- And thus, Suga Mama is actually an identity created by Odie in order to ensure Oscar's eternal failure by causing his Proud Snacks to taste awful and slowly manipulating the entire Proud Family to treat him as the Butt-Monkey.
- Also, does that mean Facilier/Oscar decided to take the A.J. Crowley approach to damnation of the masses? (Also, it would explain why Suga Mama's sister was psychic and Penny's occasional appearances of magic powers...)
- And Mama Odie lived on to become Suga Mama.
- How would he do that? He had no money.
- ...he probably had some deal with the realty brothers.
- Well remember, the Fennor Brothers gave Tiana until Wednesday to come up with the money. If Facilier's plan had succeeded, he would have had the LeBouff's fortune by then. That would be more than enough to buy the building, he simply offered to pay after Mardi Gras, which is when the Fennor Brothers were going to start working anyway.
- Or, he payed for the building in exchange for their souls to not be used as payment to his... friends.
- He made the offer to pay in cash, thus overwhelming her bid, then would have approached her with a 'bargain' once she heard. As we saw, Tiana was completely crushed and desperate and Facilier was right down stairs, if Naveen hadn't escaped she would have made her way downstairs and Facilier would have offered her the building and received whatever he wanted in return all without needing to use the power from the FOTOS and increasing his dept. Simple, easy payoff, with no risk to himself, if she accepts he gets what he wats, if she doesn't he just takes back his bid. Think about it, the Fenners might have been acting like racist jerks but why would they? Tiana is BFF with Charlotte, daughter to the richest man in town. After a few days it would have been obvious there was no other buyer and they'd either have to accept Tiana's money or make it blatantly clear they were being racist. Tiana would have been crushed and Charlotte would not have stood for that, she'd have screamed for Daddy and ruined them. Only reason things got so desperate is because Tiana was turned into a frog before any of her ways out became clear.
- Everything about this makes sense except for them having to accept Tiana's money because they can't be seen as racist. In modern times, sure, but this is the 1920s. Also, Tiana is black, female, and not exactly upper-class, as opposed to the Fennors being rich white men - they could make up some story or claim she didn't really have the money. They have plenty of reason to accept the offer when no one else turns up, but not looking racist wouldn't be one of them.
- A pair of Corrupt Corporate Executives see a stack of hundreds, they don't ask questions until their buyer disappears and the money turns into a pile of leaves. At that point, they still don't ask questions because their original buyer was shoving money across their desk while a talking alligator pointedly growls at them.
- Almost the same, except he became a Voodoo Mask rather than a Shadow Demon. Immediately after becoming a Mask, his appearance still reflected his original human features, but in due time he will evolve into a more featureless face like the Voodoo Masks we see, and he will be and act just like the other Masks.
- By that same token, his last name is Facilier either. It's something more pedestrian, and "Facilier" is just a business name.
I suspect the reason his deal with Lawrence and Naveen was so crucial is that he made a deal of his own with them off-screen: To acquire them a new soul, a new pawn in a higher place of power who can score better deals for them in the future. When he failed to fulfill his end of the bargain, they decided he was of no more use as an agent and consumed him entirely rather than release him.
The reason he never went to Mama Odie for help like everyone else does? Even as powerful as she is, she cannot directly combat the FOTOS; she can chase them off (likely with help from patrons of her own), but not kill them. She would not only be unable to help him take back his soul, the FOTOS would never allow their pawn to get anywhere near her directly to even ask for aid.
Considering the name's eccentricity, it's more likely the doctor has a very normal pedestrian name and Dr. Facilier is just the name he does business under.
Stand name: Big Bad Voodoo Daddy.
- I just figured that he was attracted to her because he's a guy frog and she's a girl frog. Their froggy instincts certainly seem to be strong enough to allow that to happen, as proven by the "fly eating" scene...
- He shows mild interest in her as a human until she shrugs him off and he responds in kind.
- Perhaps, but why, then, does Tiana sing well as both a human and as a frog?
- Why not? Just because Naveen possibly doesn't sing well as a human doesn't mean she can't. He's also a completely different sort of frog. Maybe Tiana would sing even better as a frog if she had any teeth.
- Or Naveen's singing talents improve and Tiana's don't change because Naveen is turned into a male frog. Don't forget that in Real Life, male frogs can sing (or croak), and females are mute.
- Perhaps, but why, then, does Tiana sing well as both a human and as a frog?
- This troper roleplays Charlie from All Dogs Go to Heaven over on LiveJournal. In one session, he met Charlotte, and they ended up having a conversation about this exact WMG!
- Somebody write that fic now.
- Before that, they'll take their kids to the premiere of Steamboat Willie. "Hey kids! That steamboat looks just like the ones in Louisiana! Boy, hand-drawn animation will be here way into 2005-2008!"
- Among the many easter eggs of the movie has Walt Disney himself showing up a few times in Mardi Gras, the wedding and at Tiana's Palace at the end. If anything, he probably would invite them to the premiere of Snow White.
- You're all forgetting that little thing called the Great Depression that's going to happen first. A fancy dress restaurant just getting on its feet and in the middle of a lower class neighborhood is not going to last long once the entire world economy crashes. Tiana's business will go under, whereupon she and Naveen will move back to Naveen's homeland of Maldonia to live secluded in their ivory towers. The kingdom will fall once militaristic expansion takes over the nations of Europe (no matter where Maldonia is, it's going to get occupied). Tiana, Naveen, and all their kids will be forced to flee as refugees, and likely spend the rest of their days in solitude away from much of the world. They won't even know the Disney company exists.
- On the other hand, Tiana is shown to keep most of her money in tins in her bedroom. It's unclear if she keeps this up later or not, but if she does, it would certainly Hand Wave the restaurant not going under; hey, if she doesn't actually use a bank, then she wouldn't lose much of her money. Plus, now that Naveen got his act together, his parents would probably be willing to help them out a bit. It's totally possible that they'd be able to stick around and find out about Snow White.
- Actually, you're wrong on the occupation issue, in that Maldonia by definition must be occupied. Quite a few countries weren't occupied during WWII, including the microstate Andorra so there is precedent for a really tiny country being ignored. And that's assuming they move to Maldonia. Really I can't imagine anything worse happening to Tiana than having to downsize a bit. Then again, I'm a wishful thinker when it comes to Disney movies, so I might not be thinking hard enough.
- Naveen's what, 19, 20? He most likely started his hard-partying ways at around 13-15; plenty of time for his parents to figure out he was a lost cause and start over.
- Naveen is 20 years old, which would make him a father at age 13-14? I don't think Disney would suggest these kinds of things, anyways.
- Disney wouldn't, but in a WMG, why not? ;)
- Such large gaps aren't completely impossible, either way. In my family particularly, my older sister and I are eleven years apart, and I'm pretty sure I'm not her daughter.
- Alternative WMG, Naveen's folks had his brother because they were beginning to suspect Naveen wouldn't be a suitable heir.
- Naveen is 20 years old, which would make him a father at age 13-14? I don't think Disney would suggest these kinds of things, anyways.
- That was what I assumed from the beginning. This being a family movie, they probably couldn't come right out and say it (Politically Correct History and all), but the implication felt pretty obvious to me.
- It certainly seems this way according to the time line. They said she needed the money by Wednesday, right? They were changed back on Wednesday morning, the day after Mardi Gras. During the timeskip to their human wedding Eudora had time to make Tiana's dress and Naveen's family traveled to New Orleans. It would have to be past the deadline by the time they finally went to buy and yet the Fenners were still in possession of the building.
- Plus, it never indicates that they acquired any more money to pay the extra fees that were imposed — Louis just glared at the realtors really hard! On the other hand, one wonders why the realtors didn't just refuse in the first place, rather than waiting for the party to tell her.
- Because they're jackasses who enjoyed giving her false hope.
- According to the novelization, the Fenner's accepted the original price, thanks to Louis.
- I always assumed that Falicier made a larger bid for the place in attempts to get Tiana to give him the pendant later with his temptation. It's a long shot, but he may have planned this out somewhat.
- The Disney wiki page seems to confirm this. Why would someone suddenly buy a sugar mill that appears to have been abandoned for at least a decade on the same day when someone else settled on a downpayment? Not to mention the miffed look on Tiana's face when they say "background" really drives home that this was probably the case.
- It wasn't uncommon practice for realtors to promise African-Americans a chance to purchase a rundown property, wait for them to fix the place up, then yank the deal out from under them and sell the property to a white buyer at a higher price.
- Plus, it never indicates that they acquired any more money to pay the extra fees that were imposed — Louis just glared at the realtors really hard! On the other hand, one wonders why the realtors didn't just refuse in the first place, rather than waiting for the party to tell her.
- Are you sure it was Lawrence-impersonating-Naveen? It could have been before he put on the talisman, or he'd taken it off so as not to waste the magic or some such.
- Lawrence said he loosened the jar lid because Naveen was starting to gasp. The lack of oxygen combined with the shock of being turned into a frog could have made him very disoriented and unsure of what was going on.
- Or maybe he intended to use the place to expand his own business and didn't know Tiana also wanted to buy the place.
- Also, there is a taxidermied alligator at Joseph Sisko's restaurant. That might be Louise.
- He does seems to know her situation extremely well for someone he has never met before.
- Facilier is magic. He knew Naveen's past, that he was a cut off prince in search of money, and he knew Lawrence's past, that he was pushed around his entire life. Presumably, he hadn't met any of them before.
- ...So, what, he read Naveen's palm or something? (Or that morning's newspaper...) It's more likely that he's really good at guessing people's personality based on how they respond to certain events. Naveen being a hard-partying, but estranged prince? Pretty easy to figure out. The audience was clued in on this in the first minute or so he spent onscreen. Lawrence being a weak-willed butler? Same deal, and easier still when you consider Facilier's line about "Fat cats in fancy cars", implying that he's had personal experience in that department and can sympathize with/more easily recognise others with the same attitude. Tiana, on the other hand, while easy to peg down as a hard worker, has a more specific dream: wanting to own a restaurant. Unlike the other two, this isn't something that is readily apparent at first glance... in order for Facilier to know it by mundane means, he'd have to know her, at least by reputation.
- Though in Facilier's defense, he doesn't seem to like anyone all that much, though he also doesn't seem to hate any of the protagonists either. He's just doing his thing, and stepping on people to get what he wants is a necessity. Literally. Poor Ray.
- Tiana is a smart woman, and Shadow Man is not a very reassuring name. If you add she knew from Naveen he was somehow involved in the whole Frog Prince debacle...
- They do know each other, at least in passing: Facilier is a patron at the cafe Tiana works at the start of the movie. It's possible he's a saltuary or even a regular patron, and Tiana dealt with him enough to know he's bad news.
- So comfirmed?
- This could work: Remember the temptation scene? If she only knew "The Shadow Man" via reputation, she wouldn't have known Dr. Facilier was the Shadow Man when she saw him.
- ...was put in a a retaliation to what The Nostalgia Critic said about Scar. As in that he pointed out that Scar was the only Disney villain to knock off a main character. The challenge was set, and the film makers decided to beat that challenge.
- As good a theory as any, considering it was a pretty senseless death otherwise.
- I thought Ray's death played beautifully into the film's themes of sacrifice and doing what's right as opposed to what's easy- he had no need to help Tiana and Naveen, didn't want to ask Mama Odie for a wish, and could've just given them directions and left them to it. But he went out of his way to help them, like a good samaritan- and sadly paid the price, just as Tiana's dad paid the price working so hard to get his family out of poverty. But he still got a reward, whereas Facilier is presumably still being tortured as we type.
- Does Kerchak not count as a main character?
- This was actually the original plan for Louis (an early design had him wearing glasses, in fact). As production continued, the directors thought this made the story needlessly complicated, and simply made him a regular gator.
- This could still be true anyway.
- But he has to have it pointed out by Naveen that he could fulfill his dream by becoming human, and he burst out laughing at the idea of Tiana and Naveen having originally been human. And his specific words are, "What if I asked Mama Odie to turn me human?", not "turn me back into a human?" Implying he wasn't human in the first place.
- It could be that slowly losing one's memory of being human over time is part of the transformation magic.
- As a potential Wham Episode, Louis meets a family member(s) who has been searching for him and drops a bomb-shell Wham Line to the effect of "Have you forgotten?". Note how despite the fearful reception that Louis has received, it's as if subconsciously, he longs to be back among humanity to play for them and wants to return to the way things were before.
- Charlotte: French last name, obsessed with fairy tales and romance.
- Sophie: French, obsessed with fairy tales and romance.
- Yeah, but Charlotte's last name comes from her father. (It would make sense that Sofie was her grandmother on her father's side
- This makes little to no sense for a couple of reasons. First is time frame. Anastasia takes place in 1916 and 1926. Princess and the Frog takes places in the same decades. When Charlotte was born, Sophie was still living in Russia. Sophie is not French. She is Russian with presumably mixed heritage, as her real life counterpart had mixed blood that did not include French relations. When Sophie and her Empress Dowager cousin — note that the age gap between Sophie and Dowager Empress Marie was large enough that they seemed more like daughter and mother, even though they were cousins — moved to France during Russia's revolution, Sophie immersed herself in the romantic and thrilling culture of Paris, probably in part to drown out bad memories, and thus developed a French accent within the course of ten years. Sophie's surname was not French. It was Danish. Sophie could not possibly be Charlotte's grandmother because she was not even old enough to be a grandmother at the time that Charlotte was a little girl. Another dent in this theory is that Charlotte and her family look nothing like Sophie's lover, Vladimir. I'm sure that Sophie did play around with pretty boys in France, but again, Charlotte was already born by the time Sophie began her life in France. Mayhap the ladies could be distant relatives, but this would most likely have to be through Charlotte's unknown mother's lineage.
You could even use a deconstruction of John Henry's story to explain where James got the ideology of "Work hard, but don't neglect things like love and family." John Henry hammered through a mountain to earn what was owed to him and his family, but in the process, he worked himself to death and left his son (who was James's father or grandfather) to grow up without a father in his life. James tries to instill a sense of compromise in Tiana in order to avoid something like that happening again in the future.
- Calling is almost certainly Troubador: She's a gifted artist (cookery counts as an artform for this) who uses her art to bring people together and inspire them, but can become obsessed with her art if she's not careful.
- Court affiliation could be either Clubs, with the way she brings together people of different colors, ranks, and temperaments and with her knack for dealing with nature and making use of what's on hand, or Hearts, for her emphasis on hard work, determination, and earning herself a place in society.
This world split off from our own at the Revolutionary War. In this world, the United States' founding fathers were really radical, and decided that "liberty and justice for all" (yes, I know that's from the Pledge and not the constitution; work with me here) meant all. In that world, the abolishment of slavery and universal suffrage (both for minorities and women) were written into the constitution from the beginning. The United States has had about 100 extra years to work through its racial issues. The Civil War still happened, but slavery was no longer a part of it and it was instead purely about states' rights. In the 1910's-20's of these films, racism and race issues still exist (as they even do today), but aren't at a forefront. Hence why there are integrated restaurants in the Deep South, and why in Atlantis, we have Dr. Sweet and Hispanic Audrey working alongside the rest of the white crew.
- Taking things further, this timeline extends back to Pocahontas, where the English colonists in the Americas founded a society that encouraged respect and cooperation with the Native Americans. This led to an all-around increase of progressive treatment of minority groups. I know, In Spite of a Nail and all, but it works.
- This also places it in continuity with Gargoyles, for extra Rule of Cool.
- And the continuity of Phineas and Ferb. Cause
- This troper has long since decided that the Disney universe is one which resembles our own, but brushes over things like laws for inheriting the title of prince or princess or racial or gender history.
- Hm... changing the American Civil War to being about states' rights would have made it unrecognisable... but it might not be needed to actually have an American Civil War - neither Atlantis nor The Princess and the Frog references the ACW, after all. There might be another way, though: as the main page's entry on Politically Correct History notes, there are hints at blacks aren't quite up to social class with whites, yet it is clearly in advance of our world. This might be a world where Reconstruction was handled differently and better, leading to an America/South that both was more subtle about its discrimination of blacks than OTL, and far more willing to overlook race if talent was found (Sweet was a talented doctor, Audrey was a talented mechanist, Tiana is a talented chef), especially if eccentric rich white males were backing it.
- It actually wasn't that uncommon at the time for minorities to have their own businesses and sources of wealth. Pat F is fairly accurate for its time period.
- Also, might as well add Hercules too. Greece, rather than falling due to the pelopennisian wars, survived for many more years, long enough to become a technically advanced empire that intermingled with the Romans rather than being conquered.
- Awwwww.
- This troper thought that Evangeline was the second star to the right. Being the wishing star AND the gateway to Neverland? Boy does Evangeline have a busy schedule.
- Hate to spoil a good theory, but Peter Pan takes place during The Edwardian Era, during the 1900s, at least ten years before this movie took place and, therefore, before Ray could become a star. Unless you say the Disney version happens later...
- Nobody said "magical star creation" had to follow the logic of causality. Basically, effect (star) preceding cause (events of the film) via magical time travel/reality rewrite. Since only the protagonists of the film notice the star, and not the many astronomers and astrologers who would almost certainly notice a star just appearing from nowhere. Since the stargazers of the world never notice the new star's sudden appearance (which they would and people would definitely mention it later, as it is pretty damn unusual), we should assume reality has been rewritten to have that star always being there.
- It could be that the star was always there, and that stars occasionally incarnate as living creatures. Ray was already a star, and remembered being Evangeline's partner. Dying just made him go back.
- Doesn't the Disney Peter Pan sequel take place during WW2? Wendy is only 10-15 years older in it, making Peter Pan canonically occur in the 1920s.
- Jane is twelve ears old during WWII. Wendy was probably in her thirties then, and she was twelve or thirteen years old in Peter Pan. If Return To Neverland took place in, say, 1944, and Wendy was about twenty when Jane was born, then Disney's Peter Pan took place in 1925, making it possible once we assume that The Princess and the Frog takes place in the first half of the 1920s.
- Timon was right about the stars. Pumbaa was full of it... gas that is, about his theory.
- The Magic Carpet having come to New Orleans via Paris, added to Mama Odie having gotten her hands on the Genies lamp, indicates that it is a part of the shared disney universe without these facts.
- I'll go you one better: Evangaline IS the Blue Fairy.
- First Jiminy, then Ray? That girl has a thing for insects.
- No, Evangeline is the Evening Star, right? Venus. Evangeline's a goddess.
- I'll go you one better: Evangaline IS the Blue Fairy.
- But the only way that this could work would have been if Evangeline entered an already-created star, since Evangeline actually BECOMING a star means that she would have had to become a star when Tiana was a very young girl (in order for her to wish on that star for her restaurant). That would've made Evangeline-the-star several years old. Ray couldn't have known her as a firefly in that case—he'd have been dead by the time of the movie. Fireflies don't live that long.
- Yes, fireflies don't live that long. And alligators don't play trumpet, either.
- Still, consider one of the arguments for Ray/Evangeline being the Second Star on the Right, despite Peter Pan taking place well before The Princess and the Frog. Magic can make a timeline just as wibbly-wobbly as a time travel device in a sci-fi story. It's possible that when Evangeline and Ray became stars, the stars they became came into existence in the past as well.
- This just has to be written.
- Here ya go. Straight from the Fanfic Recs page. Enjoy~!
- Lawrence is following the tradition of the doddering British sidekick who constantly gets abused, like the duke, Grimsby, Cogsworth, and Zazu. Nathaniel was probably supposed to be a parody of that, but because he was also villainous, it kind of messed up the twist in this movie when Lawrence went evil because he wasn't putting up with that shit anymore.
But I'm pretty sure decades from now, people will be surprised to hear that Enchanted was released before The Princess and the Frog anyway.
- This troper saw Enchanted just an hour or so ago and kept thinking "Nathaniel reminds me eerily of Lawrence! How is that possible?" Perhaps Disney simply used Nathaniel to parody the spineless minions that the evil queens have (like the hunter in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs) and when they were making this movie, they looked back at Nathaniel and thought he would be good to reuse.
But the conception of this movie did take place at just about the same time Enchanted was being made. The reason Alan Menken couldn't work on this movie was because he was working on Enchanted. And, yes; every time I think of Lawrence, I hear Nathaniel's frantic "Oh no!"
- This theory does sound likely, but Daystar is also pretty simular to that guy.
- A wishing star did it.
- Rule of Romantic It's sweet, it's touching, it's never intended to be scientifically accurate.
- Maybe he's a Time Lord.
- Hey, although science knows how fast light travels, no one knows how fast a soul travels. It's entirely possible that Ray's new "body" was created, yes, thousands of years ago, and his soul only got there recently. It's possible!
- Disney is the most idealist company on Earth; Of course he gets to be with his girlfriend.
- A wishing star did it.
- No wonder Minako is doomed to be unlucky in love for all eternity... her soulmate is a Cajun firefly.
- Evangeline is supposed to be the evening star, from what I recall and could find online (which is, in fact, Venus). The North Star is an actual star, has nothing to do with Venus, and is in fact, not particularly bright.
- Nope. He made his fortune through a Stable Time Loop involving two coins from 10th century Scotland and a letter to himself. See that article for more details.
- Fine then. He bought whatever it was that made the Lebouf family rich.
What? Every WMG should have at least one connecting it to Eva!
- You know it's going to be jossed, don't you?
- That's why it's a WMG. It's not necessarily intended to be canon, just a fun little thought about how two completely different universes could be connected.
- Sit down at my table / Put your mind at ease / If you relax it will enable me to do anything I please... Clearly a reference to Indoctrination.
- Transformation Central! / Reformation Central! / Transmogrification Central! Not really eveidence, but playing thatis bit in the back of my head during Saren's One-Winged Angel act is the only way I can get to sleep after watching this cutscene.
- A final point of evidence: Keith David's voice is very sexy. Case in point, imagine my dumb-ass theory being read in his voice. Doesn't it sound so much more reasonable now?
- Transformation Central could also refer to conversion into husks or being turned into pink goo to create a Human Reaper Larva.
- I think it's pretty heavily implied that he's Creole. I may be wrong, though?
- It could also be southwest Europe. For some reason I'm thinking Moorish Spain.
- This has as much to do with Naveen's name as anything else: Lost actor Naveen Andrews is of Indian descent.
- India also has a pretty long history interracial marriage: some historians estimate that one in every three British men stationed in India during the colonial period had a local wife and there's a sizable Anglo-Indian community there today.
- This also feeds into the above theory above about Naveen's parents having planned to cut him off for a while: if you didn't have a legitimate, biological son to pass the title onto, the British could take your kingdom away, so of course if they wanted to cut him off, they would need a back up.
- As for the accent: Naveen's voice actor is from Brazil, a Portuguese speaking country. In universe, Maldonia could easily overlap with Portuguese-conquered Goa, or have been founded by expatriates escaping the Goan Inquisition.
- This would certainly explain Naveen's ambiguous brownness, since it would put Maldonia somewhere in the Middle East.
- Where the portuguese monarchy was never abolished just changed a little, and at one point the royal heirs married local women giving as a result interracial descent and explaining why they seem to have some european influence.
- Or the republican coup d'etat initially succeeded but was then defeated by a monarchist counter-coup, restoring the empire but under a different name and dinasty to cut away from emperor Pedro II wishing to end the empire (the main reason the coup succeeded: most of the population was monarchist, and the ruling classes only had problems with Pedro's direct heir being a woman).
- Alternatively, one of the messes during Pedro II's minority ended up becoming a full-blown civil war started with the secession of an area self-proclaimed Kingdom of Maldonia that ended up conquering the whole Empire.
- It might have just slipped her mind. She was excited and probably distracted by the fact that she'd just learned Naveen was trying to propose to her and the prospect of being human again and getting her restaurant at long last. It's entirely possible she just assumed it was really Naveen on the float because she was only thinking about him.
- As has been pointed out elsewhere, Tiana sees the fake Naveen, but we never see her find out that he's a fake Naveen. It was Naveen who didn't remember enough about the events surrounding his transformation, and he didn't even know that Facilier had enlisted his own butler to replace him. Even with the story he told her, Tiana doesn't have anything to suggest that his transformation hadn't happened while Lottie was fetching a new dress, and that he had been the one dancing with her before it happened.
They make contracts with humans that involve their soul. Instead of Fair Folk they are business like. They were delighted to see Faciler fall into despair at the end. Thus, here is what happened in Faciler's backstory. Kyubey appeared to him and offered him a wish in exchange for his services. Faciler wished for voodoo magic because that's what he knew about. It was only later that he realized he truly wanted money ("We all know the real power in this world it's magic, IT'S MONEY!") and this dissonance is what made him even more bitter than before. Around this time Kyubey decided to experiment with sub-contractors and this is why Faciler makes deals instead of something more straight-forward; he gains more souls/energy for the Incubators to fight entropy in exchange for more power like a line of credit. After the talismen he was seconds away from witching out due to despair.
- In 2013, Bob Iger announced that there are no plans to make another hand-drawn animated Disney film in the foreseeable future.
- John Lasseter has said that he feels there are still things in 2-D animation that can't be accomplished in any other medium, and considering he and several other animation directors/producers grew up with beloved Disney classics, it seems unlikely they would let it die out completely.
- Another thing to note is that Iger never said that Disney was 100% done with 2-D animated films. There's just not any plans to make one now. It's very possible we might see another 2-D flick in the late 2010's, just not now.
Now Naveen was easy. He would've been relaxed either way but Lawrence had to be manipulated into becoming relaxed. If he were actually convinced that he was for real then he would either run away or not or act tense throughout the whole time wondering if he were going to be harmed. Because Facilier put that newspaper on him where it was readily visible, Lawrence was convinced he was a fake and in turn was relaxed throughout the tarot card reading because hey, how can a hack with a few magic tricks harm you?
- This would also somewhat explain why Charlotte is prince-obsessed. It's not just that she likes fairytales—it's that the main man in her life treats her as a princess. Whether that's beneficial for her or not—after all, she's still getting her own way all the time regardless—it's quite touching that she'd want to find a man who'd treat her as well as her daddy does. Considering her time period, it's also pretty progressive. Maybe she's smarter than we thought.
- All jokes aside, notice how that particular shadow appears to be In the Hood, which Jack Skellington is not, and that guy is.
- In case you're wondering why he kidnapped Facilier even though Facilier didn't say his name, I have 2 possible explanations: 1, the creators refused to let Keith David say the line for fear that he would be kidnapped, or 2, he was Just Following Orders from the leader of the FOTOS.
- Charlotte could smuggle plenty of bottles under those large skirts.
Bonus points if they're the SAME beings who provide Mama Odie with her power, only she is able to use them freely and without any fear of suffering the same fate as Facilier because she has the Friends' approval through her wise use of her powers and her understanding/spreading the message of what really matters.
- Based on an above guess that the realtors expected Tiana to take a loan from them, her employers expected that, by making her take the loan to get her own restaurant, she'd eventually default and then return to them.
- Most likely, the Fenner Brothers were probably making up an excuse to prevent selling the mill to Tiana due being either a woman of color (as they are implied to have prejudices) or simply that due her then economic status she wouldn't have been able to mantain the business on her own.
- Not entirely inaccurate - to cast your Voodoo on somebody you need some form of contract. While deceit is optional, to deliberately lie invalidates the contract. Facilier told Naveen he could have a green future, and Lawrence that he could be the man he'd always wanted to be. And they agreed to that.
- Of course it works, It's Disney.
- When you wish upon a star/Makes no difference who you are/Anything your heart desires will come to you...
- Also, there is a taxidermied alligator at Joseph Sisko's restaurant. That might be Louis.
- 'Cause who is going to believe that story?
- At least he wouldn't do any time in the United States, per se. If he gets sent back to Maldonia, on the other hand, while he wouldn't have to worry about being implicated in Facilier's plot (due to how fantastical it'd sound) he could face charges of high treason for conspiring against Naveen, and if the latter testified against Lawrence, let's just say the former butler could be in deep trouble...
- She also could be the one who gave Tiana the orange dress that she wears near the end of the movie, thus explaining why it became Tiana everyday dress - by wearing the dress, she remembers her friend that give it to her as a gift.
- If so, one idea that could developt into an arc would be including Gangsters and the Mafia, and maybe have them target Tiana's Palace for their own wicked deeds.