Don't you think the loa could have made things much easier for themselves by allowing Facilier to cast magic for himself. Are they just romantics, hatching such a convoluted plot? Dr.Evil would approve.
That's actually semi-based on real voodoo beliefs about loa.
That's also on the assumption that the loa want what Facilier thinks they want. What if, on the other hand, what they really want is Facilier's soul?
Loa aka spirits are believed to be attracted to what is most similar to them and easiest to possess / Over Shadow in order to work ritual magic — in this case he certainly has an army of selfish spirits following him around because some spirits require payment each summoning and others require it BEFORE even thinking about them.
The real reason is originally they were going to have Facilier be the one transformed, but then realized they would be wasting Keith David's voice acting talent if he spent most of the movie transformed. So they gave him a reason to stay as himself, which doubled as a Handwave for why he didn't just magic himself up some money to begin with.
I love the movie, but there's one teeny tiny thing that keeps bugging me: Naveen goes through the city playing the guitar at the end of 'Down in New Orleans' and tries to flirt with Tiana, who dismisses him. They interact about 5-10 seconds, clearly enough to remember each other's faces and still Naveen mistakes her as a princess in Charlotte's party despite that she still has her hair bound and nothing that would cover her face. Yeah sure, he's probably met (and slept with) hundreds of women, but seriously, you can't forget her face that easily, given that she is a dark-skinned woman in a city, which is still mainly inhabited by white people.
It's kind of the sign that, without all they went through, Tiana and Naveen would never have gotten together. It kind of subverts the idea of fairy tales that you are 'destined' to be with your 'one true love'. It furthers the whole point of the movie that WHAT YOU DO ACTUALLY MATTERS.
It's actually a very welcome subversion of the old Disney pattern of "love at first sight" in so many of their other Princess movies.
She was just some pretty girl on the street at the time, who he played the ukelele to for about five seconds while partying, and who was dressed very differently from the next time he'd see her. It is actually extremely rare for people to *not* forget random faces that quickly if something particularly memorable doesn't happen.
Well, there were several other dark-skinned people in the street at the time, including one of the girls who was squee-ing over Naveen when he got off the boat, so... I'm not really sure if skin tone alone would give him reason to remember her. Plus, given how Tiana clearly wasn't interested in him, it wouldn't surprise me if Naveen just brushed it off and forgot about her. Maybe if she'd actually spoken, Naveen would have had a bit more reason to recognize her.
Human memory is funny that way, it's easy to forget a face that you only see for five seconds, and didn't really care about when you first see them. Case in point, the first time I saw this movie, I didn't even notice that part where Naveen breifly meets Tiana.
So did Tiana have to hike back through the swamp wearing that enormous ballgown?
She wouldn't care.
It was a magic lily pad wedding gown, so maybe it had magical properties to stay clean after hiking through the swamp.
Perhaps Mama Odie was kind enough to give them some sort of a magical lift back to town.
Odie's a bit more "hands off" then that. Plus she'd probably be amused by the whole thing. Lets hope that dress was magically light-weight and non-absorbent!
And what was Eudora's reaction when her daughter who'd been missing for three days came through the door wearing an enormous sparkly dress (that's probably drenched with swamp mud, per above), along with her new husband and alligator buddy?
"Now I'll live to see my grandkids!"?
First thing I thought of was Louis shouting "GRAMMA!" and jumping in Eudora's arms. "I want cookies and sweaters and stories about what it was like in the old days!"
Hey, the people at the mardi gras parade didn't realize he was an alligator until he growled.
Forget Eudora, how would NAVEEN'S parents react? They cut their son off, send him to the states, expecting him to either make something of himself or marry some filthy rich girl...and he comes back three days later with no job and some chick without a penny to her name. Um, okay?
Hey now, she had like ten coffee tins full of pennies! The value of the USD was smaller than today, anyway. Plus, once they got a chance to know her I'm sure they'd see how great Tiana is, and I'm thinking they'd be more concerned about the whole "Voodoo Frog" story.
There's also the fact that falling for Tiana cured Naveen of his reckless layabout womanizing lazy party boy ways, so they probably approved on the face of that alone!
Oh, of course. But still, as a first reaction, I mean...how would YOU react? Also, I think they might question his sanity if he told them the frog story. Then again, with Tiana, Charlotte, and an alligator buddy to back him up, maybe not so much.
The reason his parents sent him away in the first place was for him to quit being a spoiled brat and learn the importance of work. Tiana is the reason he became a better person, so I'm pretty sure his parents would not only like her, but be grateful. Plus Naveen was now the co-owner of a five stars restaurant.
Also, now he's not sleeping around all over the globe.
It's never explained whether or not they actually intended for him to marry a rich girl or not - although Facilier does seem to know everything about you just by looking at you, so maybe that's right. And anyways...I'm sure they initially thought "...huh?" until they met her and saw that the couple was in love, and that she essentially taught Naveen to grow up, or that Naveen seemed to have made her less of a "Stop Having Fun" Guy.
I have a feeling that Naveen's parents cut him off because he was a spoiled, inept, Upper-Class Twit, like Bertie Wooster. (I can't be the only one who sees the resemblance?) They probably assumed it was the steady flow of cash that kept him that way, and the best thing they could do for him is let him go off on his own. To learn about the real world and grow up already, and that marrying rich was just his plan for getting around giving up his "high" lifestyle. But introducing his parents to the new him, and the woman who was responsible for his newfound maturity? They must've been very happy.
Tiana might have been working class and poor when they married, but the two of them got up a very successful restaurant not long after which certainly provided them with a steady living. Naveen's parents were most likely pleased that he just was able to settle down with one girl who was very nice and had common sense and a work ethic rather than him philandering and not doing anything useful. Plus, I got the impression that the "get a job or marry a rich girl" thing was what Naveen saw as his only options. His parents probably cut him off and were like "okay, you can't rely on our wealth anymore, go off and make your own way in the world". However he managed that would probably be fine with them.
This is pretty much summed up by the scene where Naveen's parents actually appear and see Tiana, where their facial expressions are best summed up as "Oh, thank God he found a good one". I am convinced that the animators have seen that sentiment in real life.
Only animals can understand each other, appearing to talk like humans (Stella calling out to Tiana)? Okay, then why does Tiana understand Naveen when she first sees him as a frog!? And how does Louis understand the musicians on the steamboat while sneaking them both back to civilization!? And how does Charlette understand Naveen later on?! And how do the frog hunters hear Tiana's line, "We also talk!" And how...
Tiana and Naveen were magically turned into frogs, so magic lets them talk to humans. And in most movies with Animal Talk, the animals can understand humans, just not speak to them.
So is Naveen the heir to the Maldonian throne? Because...that's kind of scary. Maybe the royals of Maldonia are more ceremonial, but I hope his brother is a bit more into studying up on the responsibilities.
He'll prove himself capable and responsible when he becomes a wonderful co-manager of the restaurant (and it's clear that his wife's got brains enough for two.) His parents will give him a few years at least earning his keep, and by then he'll have a lot more self-control.
Besides, if they don't want him on the throne, he has a brother!
Naveen actually has smarts. He just preferred a life of pleasure-seeking and didn't really bother employing them until he had to. Compare his reaction to being turned into a frog vs. others of people turned into things in stories. He convinced Lawrence to loosen the lid on the jar so he could escape, then hopped all the way to the LaBouff mansion in search of help. He was familiar with the storybook and willing to try it. And when that failed, he was willing to deal with being a frog until they could find a way out.
I'm sure he's intelligent, I'm just wondering if he's studying up on Political Science and Government while he's waiting tables in New Orleans.
^ That's where Tiana comes in. I'm pretty sure his The Casanova attitude was one of the reasons his parents decided to force his hand; they wanted him to settle down with a practical, down-to-Earth woman who could keep him on his toes.
If Maldonia works like most other monarchies in the world, he can't be heir to the throne— he married a commoner after all. If he wanted to eventually be the king, he would have had to marry nobility, which, in America, would be considered someone with money (e.g. Charlotte). So, at least in my mind, as soon as he married Tiana, he's no longer eligible for the throne.
Keywords being of - for all we know, he could be eligible, but he wouldn't have taken the chance (and given the responsibility to his brother). Tiana actually could have been made the "Queen consort" - in other words, just the king's wife; not really any power over the state of Maldonia.
That's not true, just because Naveen can't be King doesn't mean he is no longer a Prince. If Naveen became King, his brother would still be known as a Prince, right? If Naveen is ineligible for the throne, that doesn't change the blood in his veins. He's still a Prince, so Tiana's still a princess.
Besides, what magic will accept may not be what the law will accept. That might be at least one reason why they got another marriage in a church after the marriage in the swamp that enabled the kiss to undo the spell.
Another explanation: Maldonia allows for voluntary abdication — When Naveen married Tiana, she became a princess. However, he might have abdicated his position as heir to the throne when they met up with his parents. Considering his Character Development, he wouldn't want to deprive his new wife of her life's dream just so he could go be King.
However, if you go by what Monaco allowed with Princess Grace Kelley being able to marry into the royal line and bear heirs then Maldonia could very work like that as well. Not every monarchy works like England, ya know.
England doesn't work like that, ya know. Not in recent years anyway. Heck, there's isn't an "English" monarchy in the first place, ya know, it's a British one. If the monarchy works like the modern British one, then there's no reason he can't be King and married to a commoner. Prince William is most likely to be King one day, and his most likely Queen will be a commoner.
If Princess of Mardi Gras for Charlotte counted as a princess, marrying a commoner couldn't undo Naveen's blood title of Prince.
Exactly. People have to stop thinking of this "cannot marry a commoner and inherit the throne" thing as some unbreakable rule. Just look at real world history. Rules of succession vary with each individual monarchy, and change over time. Basically the rules of succession is whatever the reigning monarch wants them to be. He/She can follow tradition, if he/she wants. He/she can break tradition, if he/she wants. And the next monarch can change the rules back, or to something else entirely, if he/she wants. Monarchs have adopted commoners and named them their heirs. Assuming Naveen was ever the heir to the throne (and the fact that he was cut off by his parents suggests he wasn't, because you generally don't do that to the heir. An heir in Naveen's position with similar questions about responsibility hanging over him usually gets appointed to an important but tightly supervised position in the government or army where he would be forced to learn responsibility) his marriage to Tiana will not be a problem with respect to this so long as Naveen's parents like her. Also note that Naveen's father and mother may not necessarily be King and Queen of Maldonia. The son of a prince (or princess) is also a prince. So Naveen's father might be a prince, and or his mother might be a princess, and neither might be directly in line for the throne, either.
It's possible Naveen has an older sibling.
And also possible that the royals of Maldonia are powerless figureheads, so who cares whether they're politically-savvy or not?
People actually think it's sexist that Tiana's father is the one who instilled her passion for cooking and nurtured her talents? * DOES! NOT! MAKE! SENSE!!!!
There are a lot of assumptions in the previous comment, aren't there? Anyway, the idea that it's sexist that the father instilled her passion for cooking seems a little odd, considering the fact that the father being a great cook, and cooking (with Tiana) for family and friends defied traditional gender roles. Of course, the mother still had a traditionally female job by being a seamstress, but it was refreshing to see a family where the father helped out with the cooking.
What non-traditional female job was Eudora going to have in the 1920's? I know this isn't a historically accurate movie, but making her a high-powered executive would have busted the audience's suspension of disbelief. Plus it was an important part of how Tiana became friends with Charlotte.
Mentioning that her job was traditionally female isn't a criticism, it's a fact.
I haven't seen the movie myself, so I don't know the details they gave in the film, but I'm pretty sure it was during the era where "chefs [were] men, and women [were] only cooks". While cooking was still a chore for females while males went out and got jobs, some of those jobs were being professional chefs. If I recall correctly, New Orleans was one of the cultural areas where this idea persisted longer than in most places, so even if feminism did mean "women have to do the same things as men" (which it does not), it would still work out.
You speak as if that era ended. Professional cooking is still a predominantly male field, outside of pastries and desserts.
Was Tiana's father even a chef? He wanted to own his own restaurant and he cooked for the family. It shows him doing it at home and giving it away to the neighbors. None of that outright says that he was a chef.
The logic that was previously on the work's main page under Never a Self-Made Woman seemed to be that it implied Tiana owes all her success to a male. Makes even less sense in light of the above comments.
It's the kind of thing that's not at all sexist in isolation but sometimes sexist in accumulation. One heroine being all "I want to do X because it's a family tradition/because my father was the best X-er ther was" - fine, normal, sweet, etc. When you've seen a lot of heroines like that, you may start to get a little annoyed. That's all. Doesn't mean this one character's background is offensive in itself.
It's more a matter of Tiana's father being consistently given credit for Tiana's good qualities, while her bad qualities are linked to her neglecting to have his good qualities, and that her mother has no influence on her except to provide her with mementos of her deceased father. Tiana is two steps and a headstone away from being a "Well Done, Son" Guy; it isn't sexist that he had a strong influence on her, but all the songs Tiana is involved in don't actually reference any of her qualities, they reference his qualities that she picked up from him, and her ultimate goal is ... being just like dad! The viewer absolutely gets to see that Tiana is resourceful, intelligent, determined, capable, and probably one of, if not the best Disney Princess in terms of non-sexist portrayal, but the characters in the movie, including Tiana herself, only see that she's her daddy's daughter and attribute none of her positive qualities to her own self. The exception to this is Naveen, which goes further to highlight the romantic validity of their relationship— he's the only character who sees her as more than the product of her late father. The Never a Self-Made Woman entry does specifically say that it is an in-universe example of the trope, for what it's worth.
In regards to every song being about her daddy's work ethic? That is precisely the idea. Whether she straight misunderstood as a child, or a case of hindsight being 20/85 and cross-eyed, it was Tiana's perception that her father encouraged her to work hard above all else that was her major character flaw, that she never caught on to his comments that LOVE and FAMILY were what was truly important. That was what Mama Odie was telling her to get over.. She just ended up missing the point.
This is all true, but it doesn't really improve the original point: Tiana's entire character is solely influenced by her father. Where most Disney heroines are struggling with teenage rebellion against their dads, Tiana is trying to live up to his image. Where most Disney heroines would be looking to find their own dreams, Tiana wants the dream her father put into her head as a toddler. Has she ever had a seriously independent thought in her life? Never a Self-Made Woman centers around the idea that female characters can't achieve without a father, brother, or husband to get them into their positions via their own; Tiana defies this in the overall story, but the only criticism anyone has for her is that she's not enough like her father and doesn't know how to have fun. Nobody gives half a crap about any of her own qualities (mainly because she doesn't have any).
Come on, now, let's not get passive-aggressive with the tropes. No one ever said anything about mindless drones or bad decisions. Tiana spends most of the movie rejecting her mother's influence, she even has an entire song number about it, and in fact, she never does take her advice— she falls in love with Naveen, and that changes everything for her, but it's got nothing to do with anything her mother said. Her mother's role is mostly to provide exposition about her father and to give Tiana and Charlotte a reason to have met and become friends. Tiana is never even suggested to have ever considered any goals in her life other than the restaurant that her father wanted, and the whole movie is about Tiana's journey of what it really means to follow in her father's footsteps. Considering that he's dead before the main plot begins, he actually gets more credit for her achievements than she does.
Definitely missing the point with Tiana being compared to her dad. Speaking as someone who in many ways is a female version of her daddy, I get compared to him a lot, good and bad. And both Tiana and her mom obviously miss him a lot, so any little thing that reminds them of him would get mentioned. Thirdly, Tiana's role model is her dad. The point is that she's only focused on the 'work hard for your dreams' part and not the 'keep sight of what's important' part. Her realizing that is part of her character growth and what results in her being a good role model in her own right by the end of the movie.
Again, this is all true, but it isn't a counter-argument to the Never a Self-Made Woman point. Tiana's character development is completely and entirely dependent on her father's influence. He is credited with her success while her failure is attributed to her not being enough like him, she rejects her mother's influences, and she only achieves her (father's) dream because she gets married to a man who can help her out— and falling in love is treated as her finally reaching the ideal that her father established.
He's never credited with her success. And it's clear from the first scene that it's her dream, perhaps more than his.
Correct me if I missed something, but...why didn't Charlotte change into a frog when she kissed Naveen after midnight? When Tiana, who wasn't a princess, tried it, the curse extended to her. Since Charlotte was no longer a princess during the kisses, shouldn't she have turned into a frog as well?
Maybe the curse is racial profiling. :D
Maybe it was no longer contagious now that the medallion was smashed, and Tiana and Naveen only remained frogs due to an aversion of No Ontological Inertia?
Motive may have had something to do with it. Tiana kissed Naveen for a purely selfish reason that was actually pretty close to Naveen's own motives for making the deal that turned him into a frog. Charlotte, on the other hand, was kissing Naveen for the purely selfless reason of breaking the curse and making her friend happy.
Or maybe that spray he put in his mouth before the kiss have a very strange side effect on magical transformed frogs.
Maybe since the plan required Charlotte Naveen to kiss in the first place (no one else could do it), so Mama Odie gave her immunity along with the turn-them-back-to-humans thing.
The spell requires direct lip-to-lip contact. Charlotte's lipstick acted as a barrier.
Perhaps the curse wasn't quite prepared for Naveen's swinger attitude, and assumed he'd only kiss one woman. One woman kissed, transform-to-frog power neutralized.
I always thought that midnight wasn't a deadline on the spell, but on Charlotte being a princess - her title as Princess of Mardi Gras only lasted until midnight, for whatever reason. When midnight struck, she wasn't a princess any more.
Tiana wasn't a princess either, until after the story, so, the fact that Charlotte wasn't a princess doesn't change anything. Maybe, since the talisman holding Naveen's transformation had been broken, the curse couldn't jump to others any longer?
I already put this in wall banger, but I came up with this explantion. Remember the teaser trailer where Tiana was trying to avoid kissing a frog's lips and Naveen (then a nameless frog) getting pissed that she wouldn't kiss him on the lips? So, going with Magic A Is Magic A, that indicates that you've got to kiss the frog the right way, or the curse wouldn't be broken. So I went to see if there's any difference between the way Tiana kissed Naveen and Charlotte kissed Naveen (yay for bootleg clips on YouTube!). And there was a slight difference: Naveen puckered his lips for Tiana, meaning he kissed her as well. He didn't do this for Charlotte. Very slight, but it could have been enough to not just render the "cure" for the curse useless, but to not turn Charlotte into a frog. Though seeing Charlotte as a frog would have been a riot. Hell, she could have the Maid of Honor at the swamp wedding!
Actually Naveen did pucker up his lips for Charlotte, so much so you could see the pucker from behind, but his heart was obviously not in it.
Here's a thought. Naveen was turned into a frog for wanting the green and what was Tiana's motivation for kissing him? Money. Maybe it was residual magic.
I kinda thought the implication was that Charlotte fit the definition of princess within the terms of the spell. We often refer to people like the Kennedys, Hiltons and Trumps as American royalty. Charlotte was born to a life of privilege which might actually be how the spell works mechanically.
My theory: the Shadow Man's 'friends' were no longer facilitating his evil spells, so this one had no power to affect any additional people.
It took me a while to notice this, but WHY wasn't the song "Best Thing (I Never Knew I Needed)" used in the movie itself? It was only in the ending credits. It's a beautiful song, and it could've been this movie's equivalent of some other beautiful main themes from Disney movies, like "Part of Your World," "Circle of Life," "Love Will Find a Way," etc. It could have fit in there as a Final Love Duet.
Yeah I always thought this could be a song after "My belle evangeline" in which after they danced and tried to get ready for the night a dream sequence occurred or something...and boom duet time.. :D
Just Give Tiana The Money: Charlotte and Tiana are best friends right? And Charlotte is very rich right? So why didn't she just give Tiana the money she needed so she can buy the restaurant in the first place?
My guess would be that Tiana was too proud to accept a genuine handout, what with her "work hard for what you want" ethic instilled by her dearly beloved and dearly departed daddy... and even ditzy Charlotte knew that. Because she had no problem accepting the rain of cash to actually cook "those man catchin' beignets" for Charlotte's party.
But she had no problem kissing a frog in exchange for his (non-existent) money, and I believe he helped her out with the money after they married, anyway. Of course, if she had just accepted money from Charlotte, then the story would have ended pretty quickly.
When the opportunity to kiss Naveen came up, Tiana was absolutely desperate after having just been told her dream was about to be ruined. She would've taken any opportunity for money at that point.
If she changed Naveen back into a human by kissing him, a monetary reward would be perfectly reasonable, not a free handout.
I interpreted that it was a combination of Tiana's work ethic (not asking for a handout) and Charlotte's naivete (not realizing her best friend needed help). Saw it as Fridge Brilliance.
In that case, why couldn't Charlotte offer the money as a loan to be paid back over time? If not the whole thing, then at least whatever Tiana hadn't saved up by then. That way Tiana would get her restaurant without resorting to handouts.
When Tiana learned she couldn't buy the property (during the party), Charlotte wasn't aware of any problems, and Tiana was too emotionally devastated to think straight (hence her willingness to do something as completely ludicrous as kissing a frog). Maybe Tiana would've thought of the loan idea if she had gotten some time to think straight.
That one's about right. When Charlotte is talking to Tiana right before Frog!Naveen makes his intro, she mentions that both of them are getting their dreams that night. Tiana didn't tell her about being refused because of either pride or not wanting to upset Charlotte on her big night.
Charlotte herself isn't rich, her father is. Tiana's mother may have always made it a point of pride not to ask her employer for money she hadn't earned. So Tiana wouldn't ask her friend for money she'd know was really coming from Big Daddy.
Who bought the old Sugar Mill out from under Tiana? This is never addressed in the film, who would buy a run-down sugar mill in cash, and why?
I just assumed the white business owners in the area pooled a fund to purchase the property in order to keep her out. Not an uncommon occurrence in the thirties where black entrepreneurial efforts were concerned.
Or they were just lying to her. They were the ones in charge of the thing and given the time period, few people would side with Tiana if that were the case. That would also explain why they gave it to her so quickly at the end, without the "other buyer" complaining.
Neither of these make sense - it is established that Tiana is a beloved member of the community, there was no outright racial hatred (it's Disney), and if the land owners didn't want to sell to her, they wouldn't have had to make up an excuse, and just not offer it to her at all. Reject her the first time she came with an offer.
No evidence of her being a "beloved member of the community". She was just a waitress at a restaurant that nobody else cared about. She had a handful of friends, but as for being a "beloved member of the community", not really.
Exactly, there was no outright racial hatred so Disney chose to be more subtle about it. It was actually more cruel to turn her down the way they did. And they might as well let Tiana get her hopes up if she's going to clean the place up for free. Anyways, the "woman of your background" line and Tiana's reaction to it were clearly supposed to imply some sort of racial prejudice.
This troper assumed that the bankers only said they'd had another offer as an excuse to jack up the price, and had left Tiana to fret about it overnight, intending to offer her a high-interest loan the next day to make up the difference. But when she turned up at their office with an upper-class husband and an alligator for backup, they chickened out about ripping her off.
So...is Facilier's shadow one of his Friends on the Other Side, or was it just magicked by them to be sentient? I mean, when Facilier got dragged down to where-ever, his shadow went with him. And yet it's almost exactly like the other shadow demons!
I had a theory about that in the WMG for the movie. The "Friends on the Other Side" animated his shadow as part of whatever deal he made with them that caused his debt to them. It could had been a side-effect, an actual term for the deal on either side, or they did it to keep a constant watch on him.
I'm guessing the latter. While the FOTOS and Facilier are more like business partners, Facilier's shadow was genuinely friendly toward him.
Also, When the FOTOS come to take Facilier away, it seemed just as frightened as him, even cowering behind him at one point. Surprising as I was expecting the shadow to turn on him and throw him into the mouth, considering that it should have been supplied to him by the FOTOS
Idea: perhaps, a la Unknown Armies, shadows are the souls of the human damned. Facilier selling his soul for magic power gave his shadow autonomy. While he's alive, it's cooperative and friendly. Afterward...
One interview with Keith David mentioned how the shadow reflects what Facilier is really feeling (such as the transformation into a snake during his song)...maybe his shadow isn't alive so much as it's another part of him.
His shadow is his daemon then?
A familiar rather.
Facilier's shadow was freaking out just as much as Facilier was. And another shadow demon's hand grabbed onto the shadow's leg and drug it down. It wasn't at all the shadow turning on Facilier as it was they were both connected to each other. When one got drug down, the other did as well.
So Lottie didn't notice Tia was missing for three days? I'm just assuming Eudora had a reaction off camera and Buford's restaurant went to ruin without their best waitress around. Also, I'm glad no one had Charlotte committed when she came home with this story about talking frogs and the butler impersonating Naveen. She was already a little off to begin, I would have just figured she'd gone insane after being dumped at the altar.
I figure she was too busy planning the wedding. Anyone else, this would seem callous, but Lottie...I get the feeling she can't fit too much in her noggin at any given time, you know?
Also, regarding Buford's: if I remember the time line right, Tiana and Naveen vanished on a Friday night. Maybe she didn't work over the weekend? Of course, this IS Tiana we're talking about...
According to a deleted scene on the DVD, Tiana quit her job at Buford's after Charlotte paid her.
I think it's assumed she quit anyway, seeing as she ran out of the restaurant in the middle of her shift as soon as she got the money
Historically speaking, the parade would have been segregated during the time period so Tiana wouldn't have been allowed to come, though I don't think the Disney people were thinking much about that.
But think about their relationship for a moment. They've been best friends for as long as either could remember, they see each other constantly, and they're still very close. Lottie didn't want to tell Tiana she was getting married? Or ask her to be the Maid of Honor?
I figured they didn't see each other that often because they were in different social circles.
There is that, but also one must consider, REALLY, how often DID Lottie see Tiana? Tiana's other friends in the movie noted "All you ever do is work." It could be argued that Charlotte would have to go see Tiana, while she's working-just so Lottie can see her! Tiana was quite the workaholic. Sure Tiana did say she was getting her restaurant, but for all Lottie's scatter-brain could know, considering it's IN CHARACTER for her best friend, to be too busy fixing up her new restaurant to visit-Tiana is work first, work-second, work-third, THEN relax and chat later. And why wouldn't Lottie expect that out of her? In her head, they both had finally achieved their dream, she didn't know those jerks totally ripped Tiana's dream out from right under her. So Charlotte probably just shrugged it off, thinking Tiana would be able to see the wedding at the Mardi Gras, because she's too busy probably fixing up her dream restaurant. So she just moved forward with her wedding plans. Bear in mind, she's kind of a ditz too, she's not selfish on purpose, she's just oblivious and naive to everything else going on around her. The real question is, what on earth did Eudora do with her daughter missing?! Judging from the fact that Tiana showed at the beginning of the movie doesn't live in some other house-the house she grew up in...I mean, Eudora is a good mommy, so she would be BOUND TO NOTICE her daughter is missing from the getgo!
Maybe Eudora kept herself from the thoughts of despair and grief by telling herself that Tiana met her Prince Charming that night at the La Bouffs party, and they ran off to go elope and get started on those Grandkids.
They may have been best friends, but even best friends won't see each other every single day, especially when both of those friends were very busy (one was planning a wedding, and the other either waitressing or fixing up her restaurant). Even my friends, if one of them went missing for three days, I probably wouldn't notice. Also, eep in mind this was before the invention of telephones, so it's not like Lottie could just call Tiana, she would have to physically go and look for her. The only place we know that Lottie knows about is the places she works at, and all she would gather is that Tiana quit, and assume it's because of money. If anything, Lottie might be pissed off at Tiana for apparently ditching her at the party (to go streaking apparently, since both sets of clothes would be left in the bedroom) and making no effort to contact her after knowing that her big day had come. Note, we know that Tiana knows where Lottie lives, but there's no evidence of Lottie knowing where Tiana lives.
They arrested Lawrence? On what grounds? What charge could they possibly have for him?
Identity theft, fraud, and possibly attempted murder.
How? By turning into an exact copy of a much taller, thinner man? What's he going to say, A Wizard Did It?
It would not have been 'identity theft' as that's a modern crime; it would probably have been something like 'impersonating a foreign dignitary'.
In this case, that seems like a perfectly legitimate excuse. It seemed like Facilier's doings were common knowledge in the town.
Which leads to something that bugs me; if his wrongdoings were common knowledge, why didn't someone arrest Facilier before the events of the movie? If it's because the authorities were too afraid of him, shouldn't they have been afraid of incurring Facilier's wrath by arresting Lawrence (they had no way of knowing Facilier was dead at that point, so far as we know)? And speaking of things they could or couldn't have known, how did they know about Lawrence's dealings with Facilier to impersonate Naveen?
I was thinking he was arrested on the grounds that the daughter of the richest guy in town wanted him arrested.
Well, it WAS the 1920s...
To say nothing of Big Daddy wanting Lawrence's hide for putting one over on his little Lottie.
Big Daddy caught a strange British dude in "Naveen's" outfit, hiding exactly where "Naveen" ran off to, who referred to Charlotte as "my dearest" and apparently spilled some of what happened (he was screaming about how it was all Dr. Facilier's idea when he was being arrested). Big Daddy probably just assumed that Lawrence somehow pulled a very elaborate disguise off to trick Charlotte into marrying him and swindling her (which really wouldn't have been too far off), so he had Lawrence arrested.
Tiana knows who the Shadow Man is and seems to have a fairly good idea of what a bad thing it is to be messing with him, and nobody seems to be surprised by the idea of voodoo magic being able to do the kind of things it does in the move. While there's probably no specific law about getting involved with voodoo people, Dr. Facilier is probably well known enough in the area that Lawrence's story spoke for itself.
Secreting mucus is slime.
It's the principle of the thing.
And insects don't have butts, they have abdomens.
I don't think Ray's taken any biology/anatomy courses, I don't see why he would know the proper name for it.
Humans "using the restroom" is— yeah. Perhaps as a frog, one is more sensitive to the negative stigma of being a frog, leading to a more PC way of saying "slime?"
Yeah, but slime has a more varied meaning than just mucus in popular usage. When people think of 'slime', they think of slimy things, like moss, seaweed, snot, oysters, and so forth even though it's not technically 'slime'. Thus, Naveen's clarification of the more precise meaning.
Actually, there's an important distinction: slime isn't sticky. Slimy describes something as being thick, wet, and slippery, but mucus is defined by its sticky, kinda nasty all around texture. It's a semantic difference up until Tiana puts the knowledge to work for her.
It kinda bugged me that they never pointed out that Mama Odie is (indirectly, I'll give you) responsible for Ray's death: she's the one who sent them back to New Orleans, as opposed to just marrying Naveen and Tiana on the spot.
But then you could also say that Tiana and Naveen are responsible for meeting him and leading him out of the bayou in the first place. And then Louis, who was going the wrong way and caused Ray to have to lead them in the right direction.
Really, it's all Tiana's father's fault. If he hadn't taken such a healthy interest in his daughter's future and instilled a great work ethic in her, none of that would've happened and Ray would still be alive. Why to be a great parent then die, Tiana's dad.
Yeah, I was also bugged that Mama Odie was responsible for Ray's death, albeit perhaps not for the same reason. She must have known about his imminent danger (with her all seeing Gumbo pot), and yet she didn't do anything to intervene. So what if he did have a happy death, she should have just turned Evangeline into a firefly instead. And here I thought she was kind-hearted.
Just what makes you think the Gumbo pot was "all-seeing"? It looked more like it's the kind of magic that you have to ask a specific question to, or find information about a specific person. She had no reason to ask anything about Ray, and neither did Ray ask her to.
Yeah, there's no evidence that Mama Odie can see the future.
But the point of "Dig A Little Deeper" was that she wanted them to discover what they really needed, on their own. And although she could have married them, they didn't actually want to be married until later.
Mama Odie could not have married them without their consent, and possibly another point of the "Dig a Little Deeper" was her attempt to convince them that they loved each other, after which she could have married them to reverse the spell, but although she more or less succeeded with Naveen, she wasn't able to do so with Tiana, just yet. Note how she doesn't tell them about Charlotte until after Tiana misses the point of the song. It was quite clearly her Plan B.
Look, Ray wasn't an innocent bystander. He faced off Facilier and his minions knowing full well what he was doing. We don't blame Frodo for the death of Gandalf and Boromir, because they both went into fights knowing that they might die. He was confident in himself - he didn't ask anything of Mama Odie, so she didn't read his future. Besides, Tiana had not yet realized her feelings for Naveen. What was Mama Odie going to do, force her to marry him? Also, about turning Evangeline into a firefly, see the WMG page for an awesome theory.
Also, if Mama Odie had changed Evangeline into a firefly, Ray would never have gotten his place in the sky next to her, and two: "Phenomenal Cosmic Powers, Itty Bitty Living Space" much, if she can transform stars?
Mama Odie's gumbo pot showed exactly what Mama Odie asked of it: "We need a princess, what cha got?" which gave them the view of Charlotte, who was the only princess at the time. So, they had a deadline, even if only temporarily, the gumbo pot, as magic tends to work in Disney movies, could NOT see that they would fall in love on the way.
I'm a girl, but that's hardly the point...the point is this is such serious Insane Troll Logic. Now normally I like most people on the internet would say ignore it. However this is such a insult to the movie to have this thought process that it NEEDS to be taken down several pegs. And if I have to rant, my god I will, because this is a harmless Disney movie for god's sake. So no...I will no heel, but thanks for the humor attempt of the situation anyway.
Mama Odie clearly knew that if Naveen kissed Tia right after marrying her, that would undo their transformation- that's why Mama had some clothing-making magic ready when they turned back into humans. Her motive for not telling them this may have been, she wanted them to get married because they loved each other, not just to break the spell.
If Facilier really wanted to rule all of New Orleans, why didn't he just run for an electoral office? Yeah, because of his ethnicity this would not be possible in 1920's, but with his "Friends" on the other side and his voodoo magic, he is more than capable of controlling the city this way. Also, why focus on just New Orleans? Why not the entire United States (or the world)?
Facilier specifically says he can't use voodoo to benefit himself (at least directly); being able to pass as the sort of person who could run for office in 1920s Louisiana would almost certainly fall under that criteria. As for the second part...well, I'm not entirely convinced he wouldn't eventually set his sights on the country, or the world. He would either never be fully satisfied with the power he had, and/or keep racking up debts with the FOTOS that needed to be paid with more innocent souls.
Yes. Baby steps. We can't all rush straight for world domination.
He seemed to be more interested in money than power at the beginning (his animosity towards Big Daddy appeared to stem mostly from the fact that BD had huge amounts of cash to throw around while Facilier worked for coins). He only was interested in taking control of New Orleans so that he could let the FOTOS have free rein.
Facilier's plan was as thus - get Lawrence to marry Charlotte, then kill Big Daddy so Lawrence would inherit the fortune, and they could split the money, gaining major control over the city. Okay, fine. Next, offer the souls of everyone living there to the demons. Wait what? Lets ignore the implications of this and look at one simple thing - how? How would having influence in the city mean Facilier could offer peoples souls any time he wanted moreso than he could do when the movie started? But beyond that, his Friends could easily drag him screaming and crying to his death at the end, so why didn't they do that to the towns inhabitants instead of dealing with someone who was clearly pissing them off? Either there was another stage to Faciliers plan that he wasn't telling us, or his Friends don't have any understanding of how people function.
It could be some subtle magical permission thing. Like, the FOTOS were able to drag Facilier off because he owed them a debt and was unable to pay, thus they had some form of power/custody over him. But it could be that they were just unable to kidnap random people on their own. So if Facilier is basically running the town, he has power of it and thus could theoretically have the authority to tell the FOTOS "have at whoever you want".
...but they just as easily dragged Naveen away 3 separate times.
Naveen was turned into a frog via the magic the FOTOS gave Facilier. This would have given them power over Naveen by proxy they wouldn't have over others. As to why/how Facilier could give the FOTOS all the wayward souls, I got the impression that for all the power the FOTOS displayed, they could not enter the mortal world completely on their own—they required Facilier, or somebody, to use summoning magic/open a gateway or something. Because we never see them active save for when Facilier is around or has already dispatched them on missions. So, assuming he got power over New Orleans, this would enable him to, oh I don't know, call a gathering of townsfolk to City Hall for some sort of "special announcement" (perhaps a lucrative new deal that would give everyone in New Orleans "exactly what they want"?)...then as soon as they'd all shown up, he opens a gate for the FOTOS, and...
Big Daddy probably owned half the mortgages in New Orleans. If Facilier receives those documents from Lawrence, then everyone who owes Big Daddy would be in debt to Facilier, which may be all it takes to render them vulnerable to his Friends.
Why did the FOTOS choose that exact moment to take Facilier away. True, the talisman was destroyed, but that was never established as being the source of his power (as he is clearly seen taking it from the FOTOS during his Villain Song and he used magic several times before that e.g. closing the door, lighting fires, giving that guy hair, his shadow). Plus, as far as I can see he's only made three deals with the FOTOS:
1. Giving him Voodoo powers
2. Giving him the Blood Talisman
3. Giving him Shadow Demon minions to recapture Prince Naveen
True he says that he's heavily indebted to them, but from the way he described his master plan to them, it strikes me that he couldn't have conned that many favors off of them before that (because otherwise what leverage could he have used to gain their favor before that) From every angle the FOTOS side taking him away then was a bad business move; He's shown competence and enjoyment in his work. He almost succeeded, probably meaning that this one time was a fluke (The circumstances in which he failed could never realistically happen again). The more deals he makes with them, the more in debt he becomes, there's cutting your losses, then there's being stupid (1 soul or a million, hmmmmmm) the gifts they give him seem relatively simple to manufacture, considering the fact that they're freakin' demons. If anything they should punish him if he ever fails, this gives him more of an incentive to succeed, and his tab would just get bigger and bigger. I don't know that scene bugged me to death.
About "the way he described his master plan to them," I felt the opposite. Why would he NEED to offer such a large number of souls UNLESS he had a large debt to repay? The only way he could possibly appease the FOTOS was to offer all the wayward souls of New Orleans to them. As to how his debt got so large, it's easy to imagine that the FOTOS asked for X amount of souls for giving him voodoo powers. Facilier ran into trouble getting those souls, so he asked for more help from the FOTOS, which would mean an additional number of souls for him to offer... lather, rinse, repeat. And that's not even getting into how much he'd have to pay for the blood talisman and the shadow helpers. All of this added up to a huge debt.
I understood that the talisman was just the last straw. They'd given Facilier so much power in the past with evidently so little gain that when the talisman was destroyed, they decided that that was it. Granted though, they were holding onto the Idiot Ball pretty tight, just like every other villain in history who never try the same plan twice, even if the circumstances that made it fail the first time couldn't happen again.
It's implied he has a greater debt.
They're demons. Generally, you don't get excellent business acumen from the hordes of the abyss (the legions of hell on the other hand maybe, devils being supernatural lawyers and all, but not demons).
You say the circumstances leading to his failure couldn't happen again: The plan ITSELF could never realistically happen again. What's Facilier going to do? Wait for ANOTHER Prince that's been cut off from his parents' wealth with a disgruntled manservant he can manipulate to con? Naveen was free at this point, Lawrence was in custody....it was over, and the FOTOS knew it.
In that case, the FOTOS should have eaten him the moment Naveen was free and Lawrence was in custody, not after the talisman was broken. Unless they had already decided to kill him at that point and the talisman just gave them an excuse to go through with it sooner rather than later.
It's possible that they didn't realize that Facilier had totally screwed up until the talisman broke. That, or he could have gone through with the plan. He just needed to recapture Naveen and find a new idiot to take Lawrence's place. True the replacement wouldn't have a grudge against Naveen, but there would probably have been plenty of guys in New Orleans who would have jumped at the chance to impersonate a hot prince and get to marry a beautiful (if ditzy) girl and get a lot of her money.
Although it's never formally established that the talisman is the source of his power, Facilier does seem to freak out whenever it's threatened. So at least they foreshadowed the fact that breaking the talisman means extreme bad news for Facilier. Even if they never justified it.
I got the impression that the talisman was a really expensive magic item, even by FOTOS standards (Perhaps they didn't make it but instead got it from a deal they made with a Voodoo wizard centuries ago, that talisman was an antique item that nobody knows how to make anymore but was the best item for that scheme on hand) thus that talisman wasn't his, it was on loan to be returned immediately after the scheme pays of and the FOTOS get their souls. Breaking the talisman basically meant that not only did this plan fail but so did any other that relied on impersonating people.
First, we should not assume that the FOTOS' main intent is for Facilier's plan to succeed. They're playing their own game, and their main goal could easily have been the corruption of Facilier's soul all along, with whatever additional damage he manages to do in the interim just a bonus. This is standard Deal Withthe Devil fare. They're probably bound by some agreement not to turn on Facilier unless he fails to meet certain specific obligations, among which is keeping the talisman intact.
Here's my understanding: though the talisman wasn't the source of his other powers, it was crucial to his plan, since it enabled him to disguise Lawrence as Naveen. We clearly see him using the talisman to take a sample of Naveen's blood before using the talisman to turn Lawrence into Naveen. Later, he asks the Friends to bring Naveen back alive because he needs more of Naveen's blood, so apparently, even though Facilier can use all his other magic without the talismen, the only way he can magically disguise a person (who we'll call "person A" for the convenience of explanation) as another person ("person B) is by using the talisman to take person B's blood, then put the talisman around person A's neck. This apparently "uses" the blood like a car using gasoline, meaning the disguise ends when the talisman "runs out" of blood, and the disguise can thus only be brought back if the talisman is refilled with more blood (which is why Facilier needs Naveen back again). The point is, the film shows that while not the source of Facilier's other powers, the talisman is the source of the one power he needs for his plan to work; the power to disguise one person as another. Once the talisman is broken, his plan can't work anymore, meaning he has no way to pay the Friends back (though I'm still not sure how being in charge of New Orleans enables him to offer the souls of its citizens, but that's already discussed above).
Facilier's debt for his powers and the talisman was probably already too high for a man of his credit rating to handle, and when the collateral (the talisman) was destroyed, the FOTOS knew he wasn't going to make good on any of his other promises, so they cut their losses and took Facilier's soul as punishment.
Seems to be a bit of a difference between a girl who is more or less mentally a child herself vaguely considering marrying a six and a half year old boy and a boy becoming irreversibly and alarmingly in love with the newly born daughter of the girl he used to love.
It's not Wife Husbandry. That plan is about raising that child to foster positive feelings so it'd be easier to, uh, 'woo' them. Charlotte is hardly in a position to do that. If anything, it's a mild Jail Bait Wait. Besides, it's not like heaps of normal, non-creepy women have seen a young child actor and were looking forward to see how much of a stud he'll be when he grows up. People were saying this about Elijah Wood when he was a kid - and hey, they were completely right.
I was always under the impression Charlotte wasn't serious about marrying Naveen's six-year-old brother. There are probably plenty of other princes in the world for Charlotte to marry. Considering marrying the brother was probably Played for Laughs for the younger audiences, and not meant to attract such an alarm in the older ones (though, considering how today's younger fanbase treats Disney...)
Seriously, it's obvious she was joking around-because first off, it's a Disney movie-Disney would never consider endorsing an 18 year old girl waiting for the jailbait 6 year old brother. Second, Charlotte was just making light of the moment, she was probably hoping Naveen DID have a brother, and didn't expect him to be a kid to be under half her age-but Charlotte being Charlotte, she just made light of the situation-finding it kinda hilarious-as it was meant to be seen.
Why did Tiana get so upset about seeing Lawrence-as-Naveen marrying Charlotte? She already knew there was an imposter running around.
She saw him briefly near the start of the adventure. Since then she had been turned into a frog, attacked by a dog, attacked by alligators, attacked by hunters, attacked by shadow minions, fallen in love, found out HE loved HER, and finally saw him marrying someone else, something completely in keeping with her first impression of him. In all the excitement, it simply slipped her mind.
Naveen never acknowledged or gave her any details the impostor thing. In fact when she asked about who was "waltzing with Lottie", his response could have easily given her the impression he'd been transformed within the few minutes Charlotte had taken Tiana upstairs. She was around "Nawrence" again during their flight from the party, but there was too much going on to notice him, especially from inside Charlotte's dress.
Well, Charlotte was still a princess when the parade was going on, so it's not that hard to figure that Tiana thought that Naveen had kissed Charlotte at some point while she and Ray were going to the parade.
I thought she just assumed Naveen was going through with his plan to marry Charlotte to get the money to give Tiana her dream and she gave up because she felt like an oblivious idiot for not realizing Naveen loved her.
Even if she had realized it was the imposter, why wouldn't she be upset about that? She certainly wouldn't want her best friend married to a gold-digging fraud.
The fact that it's not making as much money as it should. Alvin and the Chipmunks 2 has made much more money and that was released about a week after.
First, it's using classic characters. (So does the Princess and the Frog, true, but in a radically re-imagined way.) Second, it's a sequel. Those sell.
But the Princess and the Frog has also been added to the Disney Princess line, which means lots of merchandise and DVD releases, and soundtrack sales. Sure the Chipmunks might be doing better now, but which one do you think will last in the long run?
In addition, Avatar opened after the first weekend and sucked away a lot of potential viewers, especially teens and adults, and then the crush of Christmas weekend releases — including Alvin, but also Sherlock Holmes — made matters worse; word of mouth never had a chance to take hold. Moreover, the above three movies have much more inherent appeal to boys, and Princess getting mostly good-not-great reviews didn't
help its case.
"There's no way I'm kissing a frog and eating a bug on the same day." — didn't she kiss that frog the day before?
Maybe within-24-hours; I-haven't-slept-it-off-yet kind of day?
They slept in the hollow tree after the alligators attacked. They met Louis at midday.
She maybe didn't dare to sleep with him in the same room.
She's probably too grossed out to really care about how much time has passed, while yeah, she's exaggerating, but I always assumed it was just her being too grossed out from her previous squick-that the idea of another squick, that she didn't really think about the amount of time it's been? That or just a goof....?
Dr. Facilier pulled Prince Naveen and Lawrence into an alley. I know it was broad daylight, but couldn't they have seen something bad coming?
Well, Lawrence knew something was up from the start, but Naveen is oblivious to the point of hilarity. He's totally enjoying "Friends On the Other Side" as much as the audience up to the point with the snakes, and even then he's just mildly bewildered until there's actual blood involved.
Alright, I know it was well explained, but was anyone else bothered by how Tiana and Naveen turned back? It can easily be described as AHAHA AWESOME LOOPHOLE! Tiana married Naveen as frogs, thus becoming Princess of Maldonia. Since Naveen kissed a princess, he turned back, but what about Tiana? Why did SHE turn back? She certainly didn't kiss a princess. Disney magic? The magic of love? The magic of Disney love? I chalked it up to the last one. But it just bugs me.
Mama Odie said that if Naveen kissed a princess it would turn them both back. Ray mentioned it again when Tiana was angsting after seeing the impostor Naveen, but apparently she was too distraught to believe it. And then it's mentioned a third time when Charlotte recaps the story Naveen told her.
Since the curse jumped from Naveen to Tiana, if it got broken, it would likely break for both of them... also: that would be an entirely different movie if Tiana had to kiss a princess too...
So Mama Odie is blind and her eyes are always covered...is it possible that those eyeballs we see in the jar are her eyes? They were with some teeth or dentures, and I'm pretty sure she doesn't have those either.
There's concept art of Mama Odie pulling the eyes from the jar and putting them in her head, so I assume so. I don't think she'd be sinister enough to take someone else's eyes.
The eyes track Tiana when she's talking, and the dentures smile at her when she notices. Its pretty firmly hinted that they are either her natural eyes, or eyes she can use in such a way, and they remain aware while in the jar
Wait, what? Whoa.
If it was the frog-curse that let Frog!Naveen and Frog!Tiana talk with people, and if they could only talk to animals as animals (evidenced by Tiana speaking with Charlotte's dog for the first time), then how did Louie, a totally ordinary 'gator, speak with the human jazz players at Mardis Gras?
Did he actually speak to them, though? I just remember him nodding his head.
Actually, what happened was that the jazz players thought it was a costume and asked him if he played, to which he responded by playing a few notes. They asked him if he wanted to come along, and he nodded. Presumably they just thought that he was shy and/or the costume made it hard to talk for him and thus accepted him as part of the band simply based on pure talent alone.
Facilier's curse only changed Tiana and Naveen's outward appearances, they could still talk because they knew how. Stella could only 'talk' because they could understand her all of a sudden?
Whatever it is that made Naveen and Tiana able to understand Stella is probably the same thing that allowed them to understand the gators, and the fireflies, and the spoonbills.
Then what lets Mama Odie talk to Ray, Louis, her snake and the Spoonbills?
She's a voodoo priestess?
Okay, fine. Then how could Charlotte understand Louis when he came barging through holding Ray's limp body? Shouldn't she have screamed cause an Alligator was running at her?
She just had the whole story explained to her. Her best friend had been turned into a frog. She may not have understood Louis specifically, but she understood something sad was happening.
I understood that by becoming a princess through marriage, Naveen and Tiana were able transform back with a kiss, but wasn't the time limit on the kiss the reason why they couldn't transform back earlier when Charlotte offered to kiss Naveen? Shouldn't they have lost their chance to transform back at that point?
I'm pretty sure this was addressed earlier on this page. The time limit was because Charlotte would no longer be a princess after midnight.
It's mentioned by Mama Odie that Charlotte would not be a princess once Mardi Gras was over because her father would no longer be King of Mardi Gras. The time limit was set because that was the last night of Mardi Gras.
Mardi Gras is one day, the Tuesday before Ash Wednesday. Mardi Gras is the end of Carnival Season, which starts on Twelfth Night. Charlotte is the Princess of Mardi Gras, because her daddy is the King of Mardi Gras.
Because Louis is an alligator, while Peter Pan has a crocodile.
And they already did one, with Evangeline.
How could Dr. Facilier gain control over all of the souls of New Orleans? Don't those have to be given over willingly?
He is very charismatic. I'm sure having a lot of money would add to that charisma.
The way I remember it, Facilier only promised the "Wayward" souls, meaning all the people who were lost and ready to give up their souls already, only needing the right kind of encouragement which Facilier can supply once he gains control of New Orleans.
I got the impression that when he controlled New Orleans, he'd basically just sit back and let the FOTOS get a hold of the souls. He himself wouldn't be actively involved.
I'd just assumed Facilier wanted the power for no other reason than that he wanted it, and that he figured he could do the rest himself (RIP).
The leader of a town, country, etc. can, in fact, give consent for the people in that town, country, etc. on a magical level. According to some sources.
I love this movie, don't get me wrong, but Lawrence getting bullied into going with Facilier's plot... because he was tired of being pushed around? Did he decide it was time to be someone else's doormat for a change?
He wasn't bullied into initially accepting. Facilier wasn't precisely nice to him in 'Friends on the Other Side', no, but the actual offer was straight up 'Work with me and you'll get back at this jerk and get money and respect.' It was only after Naveen escaped that Facilier really started bullying Lawrence into going along.
Not to mention, when Lawrence had Naveen's appearance, he would be handsome, fit, have people fawning all over him, and especially the undivided attention of a beautiful, rich, and charming belle. To have that kind of life, he wouldn't mind handing over the "thinking" work to someone else.
Lawrence wanted money and power. What he needed was respect. Which do you think Facilier would give him?
You are Made of Win for that little bit of Fridge Brilliance. And you also underscore the truth about Lawrence—yes, he WAS just trading being pushed around by one person for being pushed around by another. The fact he couldn't see this just proves how greedy and lacking in insight he was, and thus such easy prey for Facilier.
I know, I know, it's a Disney movie - but proposing to a girl only a day after you met her? Isn't that a bit quick, even by Disney standards? And exactly how much time passed between the engagement and the wedding? It couldn't have been that long, considering that the leasers didn't even have time to officially sell the building yet.
That's ''long'' for Disney standards. It was more like 2-3 days, and they'd been together the entire 24 hours of every day. That's longer than Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Ariel and Jasmine knew their men before they decided they wanted to get married. And a lot of people don't think the Fenners even had another buyer, they were just racist.
Aurora's case is iffy (she and Philip were both betrothed to each other by their parents), Ariel and Eric had just as much time as Tiana and Naveen (Ursula gave Ariel three days), and Jasmine didn't marry Aladdin until the third movie, so technically, Aladdin and Jasmine had the longest time instead of Naveen and Tiana who are tied with Eric and Ariel in terms of how long it took.
As for the date between the engagement and wedding, it bugs me to no end. Did they get married as frogs the day of Ray's funeral? As in, Ash Wednesday (bad idea)? Did they get married as humans on Easter Sunday (great idea)? But that contradicts the order of events in the Happily Ever After montage! I just assume that the Happily Ever After montage is out of exact chronological order.
Easter Sunday is 40 days after Ash Wednesday, so I doubt it, and I've never heard of either a superstition or a taboo against getting married on Ash Wednesday.
There's certainly no real way of knowing when they had their church wedding. Who knows how much planning went into it?
Yeah, but it's a kind of sad and somber day dedicated to reflection. Which is fine for Ray's funeral; not the best day for someone's wedding.
At least in Catholicism marring during Lent is usually discouraged (not quite a taboo anymore, but still frowned upon) Ash Wedesday is the first day of Lent. I do know its taboo to marry on Good Friday, but I doubt the waited that long so it's irrelevant.
It's taboo to marry during the Pascal Triduum, which begins the evening of Holy Thursday and continues until Sunday Evening. Then again, the one performing the ceremony ain't Catholic, so she may not bind herself to that.
It's possible that they spent a few days mourning for Ray before they got married. It's not exactly easy to bounce back from a friend's death and go straight into a wedding or anything.
Ray's funeral was at night and their marriage seemed to be late in the day so they weren't one right after the other and they had time to mourn him. Even if they got married the next day, I kind of view it as something Ray would have wanted since he seemed happy Naveen and Tiana got together. Besides, Tiana and Naveen aren't being like Yzma in Emperor's New Groove in that they weren't being malicious by trying to upstage his funeral or forgetting about him. They probably wanted to be together and knew Ray would want them to be happy.
Exactly, this wasn't like Bambi with the Mood Whiplash of the pwetty birds singing "tra-la-la-la" right AFTER the death of Bambi's mother. They were all mourning the death of Ray...the scene then gradually goes to a new light, shining in the sky, everyone looks up in bewilderment-then gasp-then cheer in joy seeing a new star born next to "Evangaline" , Ray's spirit lives on in the sky, so he'll always be watching over the family-and he gets to be with his love at last, that thought ALONE, probably convinced Naveen and Tiana that Ray wouldn't want them to be mourning his death, and that Ray would want them to be happy, at the earliest-it probably would of been that following day they wed-but who is to say a few days didn't pass by either? Either way...the emotion transitioned. It went from sad, to bewildered, to shocked, to smiles-THEN CHEERS AND SHOUTS of joy, Ray got his happy ending-they know it and are overjoyed for their late friend, as Naveen and Tiana hug each other, they can move on now this tragic event-and then after that joyous discovery in the sky-THEN it switches to their wedding. Sounds like a pretty good transition to me?-the music alone in those scenes made me tear up, then pause for a moment to figure out what's going on-to hairs standing up on the back of my neck (the good kind, not the scared kind)-to me now tearing up with happy tears-to then literally GUSHING at seeing them finally get married. Sure it may have seemed fast when you look at it through real world eyes, but in all honesty-I never had time to think about it, my emotions were pulled along for the ride-and Iembracedeverystinkinmomentof it!
What exactly is that talisman made of that shatters easily enough when thrown down by a frog from a height of, what, three inches? I would think something like that would be a bit more sturdy. It's like the object version of Squishy Wizard.
Maybe it's an Empathic Talisman; since it responds to the user's will, any owner who wants to break it can break it.
She has a very strong arm for a princess.
She has a very strong arm, period. It's all that DishDashing she did at her multiple restaurant jobs.
Tiana and Naween were obviously super-frogly strong (Naveen managed to jerk Lawernce off the wedding altar).
The fact that it broke despite being close to the ground isn't that odd. For example, I work with nail polish and has seen bottles shatter after falling a scant few inches, yet not even scratch when falling several feet. However, that still doesn't change the fact that the talisman probably should have been made from something sturdier from the get-go.
Not if its fragility is intentional on the part of the FOTOS.
Or, considering it's a magical artifact, the material it has to be made of is just that fragile. Titanium probably isn't good for Voodoo, you know.
It's possible the more powerful a voodoo item is, the more delicate its build is.
So the sugar mill was a plain white building, but at the end it's red brick. It's hard to tell in the movie because it's dark, but there's other art that shows it more clearly. So did Tiana and Naveen have to build all that up around the outside or could they remove the white paint or something? Did they have to put in all those windows themselves and do all the wiring for the thousands of lights?
Well, there's an indeterminate amount of time between them buying the mill and the final scene. Perhaps they got the building functional, then ran the restaurant long enough to earn enough money to do the final renovation?
Many brick buildings, especially in the South, are painted or whitewashed. This protects the brick from the elements (brick is not indestructible). A lot of people, when renovating a brick building that has been painted (especially if they are short on money), will remove the paint to find sound brick underneath.
In "Dig A Little Deeper" Is Mama Odie able to understand the flamingo's singing? and if that's the case, how? MAGIC? She understood Ray and Louie as well. I know it isn't major, but show a little consistency. Can Facilier understand them too? Can All Voodoo priests understand animals? People need to ask more questions.
Waitaminute. Isn't it already stated that voodoo conjurers can't do a thing for themselves?
Well, maybe they're using the magic on the animals, not themselves. I thought the "Can't do a thing for myself" was put in because the writers knew that Facilier couldn't impersonate Naveen and seduce Charlotte without getting into seriousUnfortunate Implications territory, so they put in an in-story block on it and made Lawrence truly necessary.
It doesn't necessarily have to be a spell. It could just be a skill; Talking Animals all seem to speak the same language, so he could've just learned it the same way he learned to draw magic circles and whatnot.
Mama Odie is ''HOW' old? She could have picked up a few things with the classic "old people are smart" trope, you know.
Or it could just be that Mama Odie used a different sort of voodoo magic than Doctor Facilier, especially since a lot of his power seemed to come from the FOTOS while Mama Odie did things for herself.
They aren't flamingos. They're spoonbills.
Mama Odie does Hoodoo, if Louis is to be believed. Plus, it's not like it's voodoo linked to shadows, an obviously evil talent if ever there was one.
Mama Odie can also understand frogs, gators, fireflies, and vaguely related random animals who came to her wanting to be turned back human. She obviously CAN understand the spoonbills singing.
I don't think the "can't use it on myself" thing was an actual restriction, it might've been self-inflicted. Maybe the magic can't be added to Facilier's tab if Facilier isn't using it, and the ability to do the card tricks and whatnot in "Friends on the Other Side" is what he's paying off. Of course, that means short fat British guy is now indebted to the Friends, but it doesn't matter because once Falicier pays his debt the Brit is screwed anyway.
One could argue that using her power to talk to animals is not "for herself." It is established that she welcomes people to come to her with their problems so she can help them find what they need. Therefore, being able to understand what they are saying would be necessary to help them.
Mama Odie has shades before they were invented. Shades weren't available for sale to the public until 1929, and even then, early on they were only sold in Atlantic City, NJ.
She could have made them herself.
Yeah, she could've gotten some regular glasses and dipped into some black paint. It's not she has to see through them.
Variants on sunglasses have been around since the 12th century. Just because they weren't being mass produced and marketed is no reason why should couldn't have a pair.
Okay, so I've been wondering a little recently...Dr. Facilier says that he cannot conjure a thing for himself. Is this something from Voodoo or Voudoun mythology, or is it just a small plot-element that may often be used in some magic stories.
Plot element. The original plan, apparently, was to have Facilier disguise himself as Naveen, but the director's were so impressed with Keith David's voice work that they felt it was a shame to keep him disguised the whole time. So, they invented Lawrence and introduced the "can't conjure a thing for myself" excuse.
Also a bit of Fridge Brilliance there. Not only did it excuse Facilier from masquerading as Naveen, it also explained why Facilier didn't just conquer up a whole lot of money in the first place.
But Lawrence as Fake!Naveen had his own voice, so Facilier would too.
It was better to have an ugly white guy do the impersonating, because a black guy disguised as an Ambiguously Brown guy seducing a blonde, white girl for nefarious purposes would have set off even more cries ofUnfortunate Implications, although I'm sure Faci/Charlotte would have also become an extremely popular ship, because Facilier is a lot sexier than Lawrence.
Heck, he's a lot sexier than Charlotte.
And is it just me, or have some of the animators from The Proud Family been recruited to work on the movie? Dr. Facilier looks like Oscar Proud if he went evil, and Mama Odie looks like Suga Momma.
She kind of sounds like her too...
And she would have been Facilier's mother in an earlier draft.
Bruce Smith, the creator of The Proud Family, was Dr. Facilier's chief animator.
I know it's a stupid question, but I'm an asshole so I'll ask anyway: "Dr" Facilier? A Doctor of what? He's a black man in 1920's America for god's sake.
So more than seventy years after the first African-American doctor graduated from an American medical school, then? (Doctor David J Peck, 1847)
Witch Doctor, of course. Majored in Mysticism & Dark Arts.
I'd love to see his Diploma. He probably has it stashed away somewhere.
He probably just took the title of "doctor" to sound more impressive.
I for one feel very sorry for both of the villains in this movie. Facilier was trapped in a deal that ended up costing him his soul, and Lawrence was pushed around all his life by his family, his job, (his theoretical spouse) and when he's finally given an opportunity to turn his life around, what happens? He's suddenly a villain and he's never allowed to know happiness ever again. What a load of crock. How on earth, knowing all this, can we side with Tiana and Naveen in this story?
Well, for Lawrence's troubles, you can blame Facilier for that. Tiana and Naveen didn't do much against him except to stop him from marrying Lottie so Facilier could kill her father. And Facilier...well, he made that deal of his own volition; stories of soul bargains very rarely feature a completely unwilling participant. Facilier knew what he was getting himself into when he made the deal, so he has no one to blame but himself.
Well you're right, but did Lawrence really deserve to be arrested at the end, and what about Naveen? He made a deal with Facilier and we don't blame him. I think a similar thing happened to the poor Doctor, only worse.
Except that Naveen didn't know what he was getting into. Facilier read his future, told Naveen and Lawrence their desires, and then asks if they'd be so kind as to shake his hand. It was never explicitly stated that Naveen would be agreeing to any sort of bargain and he never even came looking for one. Plus, Naveen was turned into a form that let him, throughout the movie, be locked up in tiny containers (twice), squashed with a book (twice), nearly eaten (several times, once by rednecks), and if Facilier had gotten his way, Naveen would have spent the rest of his life locked up and having his blood taken. On the other hand, Lawrence got to steal the life of Naveen (including being in a much younger and better-looking body) and was being set to marry a cute girl who was utterly obsessed with him and filthy rich to boot. He lost his nerve because he was wishy-washy, but never actually did anything to try to stop Facilier. Yes, I'd say he deserved to be arrested.
Well, let's go over what Lawrence has done; impersonated someone to the point of stealing their life, aiding in imprisoning someone and using their blood to fuel said impersonation, tricking a woman into marrying him, and then using that false marriage to get at her money. Yeah, I'd say he very well deserves it. (As for Naveen, he at least realizes that he was a fool to make that deal and learns about what's really important. Lawrence doesn't. Ergo, Naveen redeems himself and Lawrence goes to the slammer.)
First of all, like the poster said above, it's pretty obvious that Facilier did his own Deal with the Devil and got exactly what was coming to him. Secondly, Lawrence didn't get a opportunity to turn his life around, he got an opportunity to steal someone else's life to gain riches and power that he hasn't earned and, more importantly, doesn't deserve. He's been taken for granted his whole life, sure, but rather than just 'dig deep' to find the courage to stand up for himself or leave to find a job with respect, he takes the easy (and immoral) way out. So here's how you side with Tiana and Naveen - they eventually realized their own flaws and rose above them, while Facilier and Lawrence just screwed themselves over.
Still, because of the way the deal was arranged, Lawrence never got a chance at redemption. He was stuck with Facilier, being constantly misled and intimidated. He was never able to meet up with Mama Odie and hear her advice (which without neither Tiana nor Naveen would've understood their mistakes) All he wanted was money, and respect. Tiana did too. It isn't exactly a bad goal is it. and for one I think Lawrence was still kind-hearted, even after he became a villain. In fact, his kindness was what saved Naveen in the first place. (forgive me if the quote is wrong: "The poor thing was gasping, so I loosened the lid, ever so slightly") As for Facilier, we don't know the logistics of how he could've helped himself, Naveen only had to kiss a princess and break his deal. The Doctor was well and truly trapped, punished for what could've been an honest mistake, made when he was at the end of his rope, like Tiana. I think that after so many years of living with the FOTOS over his shoulder, Facilier just snapped and decided to at least enjoy himself. I pity the two of them, a chance run in with the voodoo queen of the Bayou is the only difference between the two protagonists, and the two antagonists.
Tiana wanted money and respect yes, but she worked honestly for it. She didn't try to trick and swindle people out of it. Yes Lawrence was a bit pathetic, but then his punishment for his crimes (which you cannot deny he committed) weren't nearly as severe as Facilier's (who willing made deals with demons, which never goes well). In fact, as people noted above, there really wasn't much evidence of what Lawrence did (seeing as most of it was magic), so one could always pretend that he was released on lack of evidence and returned to Maldonia or something.
There really is no reason to assume Facilier is the victim in the story. He revels in his powers, and referring to the FOTOS as, well, friends, makes it clear he's no Lawrence. The FOTOS are lending him their power in exchange for his soul, and eventually, other souls. And Facilier's completely fine with the implications. Keep in mind, he has a pretty intimate knowledge of voodoo, whereas Lawrence doesn't. And while Lawrence was bullied by Facilier the whole time, he wasn't being constantly watched, as evidenced by his slow transformation back to his original self without any kind of intervention. He technically could've gone to the authorities, or run away (like Naveen did). But if you really want a happy ending for Lawrence, you could just say once he explained how he was coerced into the whole thing the law was a little lighter on him. Keep in mind we never really see Lawrence's fate.
I like to imagine that too, hopefully he could make up with Naveen somewhere down the line, and while I still think that Facilier didn't deserve what happened to him, I can't deny that he did some horrible stuff. I really want to see some sort of Backstory for him, just so I could know what led him down such a dark path. Really, I guess I always want Disney villains to have a Last-Second Chance and take it. All of them are redeemable in some fashion.
It's pretty heavily implied what led Facilier down his path: he's on the bottom rung of society, even in terms of African Americans living in the south in the 1920's (his character designer mentioned how, in the 1920's, well-off black men tried to make their hair as slick and smooth as possible. Facilier's hair is a rat's nest, his pants don't quite fit, he only has a vest and no shirt, and his stomach sticks out). What's more, when Facilier is talking to Lawrence about how the fat cats keep getting fatter and "don't even spare [him] a passing glance", watch his expression: he's talking about himself. Facilier is on the absolute bottom of society, and his bitterness drives him to change that. He's pretty much like Tiana, only instead of trying to change his position in life and overcome societal obstacles through hard work, he lets his bitterness and hatred consume him: his plan is just as much about revenge as it is about moving up in the world.
Yes. This. It doesn't excuse or justify what Facilier did, but I think it certainly explains his thought process. Let's go over it again: He's a BLACK GUY in the DEEP SOUTH at the TURN OF THE CENTURY. The moral of working hard versus getting everything the easy way is dismantled in every possible way when you realize that there is just no way Facilier could have gotten up in the world by "working hard." Sure, Tiana was getting there with her own work ethic, but she was also best friends with the richest white girl in the whole town. Her whole money problem was solved in two minutes when Charlotte asked her to bake beignets for her party. I'm sure Tiana still faced prejudice and racism (as shown with the whole real estate agent thing), but it could have never been to the extent that Mr. I-Work-In-The-French-Quarter-for-Nickels had endured. Again, that doesn't excuse his plans or what he did, but I think it certainly goes a long way in showing why he decided to sell his soul for powers that would level the playing field a bit.
How do you know she didn't face racism to the same extent that Dr. Facilier did? Being best friends with the richest white girl in the whole town didn't stop the real estate guys from royally screwing her over due to her "background". And her money problem wasn't solved in two minutes by Lottie giving her money for the beignets - it was solved by her saving up every nickel and dime she ever earned, with Lottie giving her just enough money to tide her over near the end.
... Facilier was going to offer up all the souls of New Orleans to a bunch of twisted shadow creatures, and you say he didn't deserve the exact same fate that he was going to inflict on thousands of people for his own gain? How the world do you justify that?
Personally I think that's actually the only thing he did which makes him deserve what he got. Before that, sure, he sold his soul for dark magic, and used it to con people. A Con Man does not deserve to have his soul devoured by shadow creatures, especially as the on scene con (Lawrence) was a bit of a Jerkass Victim. Everything up to the point where he decides he needs more power, rather than thinking for a moment about how he could find Frog!Naveem without more juju and to kill LeBouf is just a fairly standard Shadow archetype. He's the guy who teaches people to not look for the easy way out. Unfortunately for him, he never learned the lesson himself, and isn't powerful enough to be beyond the consequential reproach of "the easy way out."
For clarity he offered up all the "Wayward" souls, I'm assuming only the prisoners, the refugees and the dispossessed would lose their souls. People who have no life ahead of them. Facilier was capable of so much more (with his powers and everything).
How do you know what "wayward souls" is defined as? Could be the people you suggested. Could cover ever person in New Orleans.
Yeah, I kind of heard that as "all the wayward souls [that I'm going to create]"
In a lot of stories dealing with magic, ownership is a fluid thing. There are Fair Folk tales where they gained power over humans by just getting the sap to eat their food or something similar. If Facilier had a ton of money he could gain "ownership" of people as far as voodoo is concerned pretty easily.
You say that like it excuses him somehow. Also, how about the fact that he was gleefully going to commit murder?
Of course it doesn't excuse him. It does, however, paint him in a little more of a pitiable light. He reminds me a little of Scar that way...before the villain we know, it seems there was a young guy who was kicked and treated like he was worthless, until one day he started getting bitter—and it was just all downhill from there. Which brings us right back to the want vs. need theme in that he needed respect, to be treated with some decency, but instead threw everything he had into what he wanted, revenge and power. Had it coming, in a nutshell, but it's still sad.
You could argue that about virtually every Disney villain, but there's still the fact that plenty of the protagonists were kicked down and treated badly and made it to the top without screwing over or killing or hurting anyone. Cinderella didn't feel the need to violently retaliate against her stepmother or stepsisters. Belle didn't go on a rampage against Gaston and the townsfolk for belittling her and her father. Tiana, who was in the same position Facilier was (it was pretty obvious that the real estate men were screwing her over on the sugar mill because of her ethnicity) worked her way up the social ladder through honest work, not trickery. It's like someone once said about Gaston from Beauty and the Beast, yes one could possibly see his story as a tale of unrequited love. It's also possible to see Bluebeard's story as a tale of unfinished business. There are some points of view that just weren't meant to be used though.
Exactly. Tiana, Belle, and Cinderella, etc., when they were treated horribly, didn't let circumstance or cruelty overcome them and turn them into something just as bad. Disney villains are villains precisely because they do, and it destroys them. Facilier is an especially interesting case, because he doesn't get his comeuppance in one fell swoop, falling from some high ledge when he's at the top of the world and everything is going right. The walls have been closing in on him for a long time, and he knows this.
To go a step farther, Word of God said that Facilier offered his services to other people besides Naveen and screwed all of them over as well. Like the guy who was bald at the beginning of the movie. If Facilier wanted to move upward in life and climb the social ladder, why bother with that? It would help him get much more business if he didn't cause his customers problems.
Could have been unintentional. Could have just been a bum potion, or a specifically bad potion provided by the "Friends."
As for Lawrence, he definitely had his chances at redemption, or at least escaping. He had his moments of doubt when he reverted back at the gazebo, but he never took the chance to really feel bad about what he was doing or try to back out. When Naveen asks him why he's doing this in the climax, does Lawrence say that he was being forced or bullied? No, he starts going into a tirade about how he envied and resented Naveen, clearly demonstrating he was still in on the plan because of his own pettiness. For heaven's sake, Mama Odine's advice wasn't something secret or groundbreaking - it was just about looking deep into yourself and figuring out what's really important. Lawrence isn't someone to be pitied because he couldn't figure out that stealing someone's life to get glory wasn't the right thing to do. Yeah, Tiana wanted the same things, but when she was having her own Last Temptation she realized it was wrong to screw over others for her own gain. (As a final point - kind-hearted? Because you have a transformed prince stuck in a jar for your impersonation scheme and you open the lid slightly?)
I just thought it was surprisingly nice of him, and it's true without him doing that the film never would've happened. Lawrence never wanted to kill anyone, he wasn't interested in claiming all the souls of New Orleans, he just wanted to take a shot at the man who's made his life miserable. True he didn't go about it the right way, but he's certainly far from being a loathable character
Given that Naveen's blood was needed for the talisman to work, Lawrence could've just been making sure his meal ticket didn't die of asphyxiation.
But wasn't Lawrence aware of the fact that Facilier planned to murder Big Daddy so that they could get Charlotte's money? In which case, Lawrence was alright with killing someone, or at least keeping quiet about it. And when you consider that Big Daddy was genuinely a nice guy, that makes it even worse (it's not like Lawrence and Facilier were offing a George Wallace-like guy to swindle a shrewish daughter).
Usurping his position as...well...prince...is a bit more than taking a shot at him. Not to mention, apparently the only way his disguise would stick is if he kept Naveen alive to continually draw blood from him, and the simple aspect of his plan involving tricking someone into marrying him...
Hey, you can feel sorry for/sympathize with a villain and still recognize that they are villains and deserving of their punishment, whatever it turns out to be. The best villains are sympathetic ones, after all. And Lawrence hasn't run out of chances for redemption by any measure anyways. He got arrested at the end of the movie. He hasn't even been tried or sentenced. One could easily imagine a talented lawyer getting him off pretty easy (shifting all the blame on to Facilier, etc, etc, and let's not forget, this is 1920's deep south, and Lawrence is white). And now he will most certainly not be Naveen's servant any longer, which will give him an opportunity to win respect for himself legitimately, if he so chooses.
"And while Lawrence was bullied by Facilier the whole time, he wasn't being constantly watched, as evidenced by his slow transformation back to his original self without any kind of intervention." Facilier had to have been watching nearby when Lawrence slowly lost the form of Naveen because he shows up suddenly as Charlotte skips away to her mansion tickled over having a Mardi Gras wedding. Also Lawrence was proposing to Charlotte as his disguise vanished, making it a bad time for Facilier to approach him.
In the FOTOS Villain Song, as Naveen is being transformed, the chorus shouts "You got what you wanted/ But not what you needed!" But...Naveen didn't want to be turned into a frog; rather, he needed to be turned into a frog. So was the chorus just wrong, being evil and all?
It was "You got what you want/but you lost what you had". Dr. Facilier worded it so Naveen agreed with him, technically "wanting" to be a frog, which made him lose everything he had before.
Huh. Not sure how I completely misheard that, then.
This line has also been heard as "You got what you wanted/What you want's what you get".
Having just gotten the soundtrack from the library, I can confirm that the line is "You got what you wanted/But you lost what you had!"
Naveen wanted to be "free" and "hop from place to place" and get "the green". He got all of that. He lost his life as a human in exchange.
Just thought I'd add my personal mishearing of "You got what you wanted, but did you want what you got?" I always liked that one.
Getting into the whole "what you want vs. what you need" aesop. They never portray Tiana's "want" of owning a restaurant as a bad thing, obviously, but when it comes to her mother and Mama Odie, I feel like she gets a hard time about it. Yes, she's got her nose to the grindstone, yes, she's choosing to work instead of dance and flirt, but it's not like she's closed off the possibility of ever having a family...she warms up to Naveen pretty quickly. She's got some friends, even if she doesn't go out with them often. She's focused on one thing, but not blind to everything else.
Tiana barely has time to sleep. Mom and Odie are right to be a little concerned.
PatF is interesting in that no character (aside from Facilier and Lawrence)is 100% in the wrong: Tiana needs to work hard, but she's sacrificing everything else in her life. Incidentally, though, the directors were as worried about it as you are: they added Tiana's mother bringing her the Gumbo pot since the original version (her showing up and badgering Tiana about Grandkids) just made her seem like a dreamkiller.
But that's the thing, she's not sacrificing everything else in her life. She's clearly got a social life, just not much of a dating one—but that doesn't mean she didn't understand how important love was. She didn't need to "dig a little deeper" as much as she needed to get some more sleep and take better care of herself, and make just a little more time for relaxing, so that she didn't die of a stress induced heart attack before the age of thirty. Although that doesn't make for a very catchy song.
What? Like one of the above posters said, Tiana was hardly getting sleep. Her friend even says "Girl, all you ever do is work". She doesn't go out with her friends or engage in activities that make for stress relief (she doesn't even seem to know how to dance until Naveen insists on doing so). Tiana's father never got the restaurant but made time to be with his wife and daughter and was happy still. Tiana had it in her head that it was somehow letting her father down if his dream went unfulfilled when he obviously wouldn't have wanted her to clutter her life so much. Also, she only warmed up to Naveen after he pointed out that she needed to loosen up and helped her do so (just like how he only warmed up to her after she told him to take more responsibility and taught him how to take care of himself a little).
I'm not denying that Tiana was pushing herself, working too hard, and misinterpreting her father's wishes...I just don't think she was the entirely out of control workaholic some people make her out to be. Also consider that she can't survive on the sleep we see her getting (almost none) all the time...it's possible she was pushing herself especially hard, even for her, in the days leading up to Mardi Gras, when there would be the most work to be done and money to be made.
I think Tiana's workaholic image comes from the fact that she constantly kept talking about how people need to work hard for a living. Like, every other time she argued with Naveen. I suspect it's more difficult to show overworking as a flaw than under-working though.
She killed it because Naveen was seriously getting on her nerves. At that point Naveen had accidentally turned her into a frog, after deliberately lying to her about giving her the money for her restaurant, was being lazy while she did all the work (Tiana never tells anyone else they have to work on the time like she does so her raining on the parade is Naveen specific), and he was singing about how he wanted to keep partying and sleeping around when his plan is to marry Tiana's best friend and take complete advantage of her. She's perfectly nice to Louis, who also seemed to desire an easy life so it's likely anger over the lie and future exploitation of her friend that have set her off on him.
I would think her problem is that she put the restaurant dream on a pedestal; I seriously doubt that she would have found happiness even if everything had gone off without a hitch.
Agreed. Part of why Tiana wanted the restaurant was because she loved to cook and wanted to bring people together, true. But another, huge, part of it was that she was using it to come to terms with her father's death. She had it in her head that he died unfulfilled because he never got the restaurant and her getting it would somehow fix that. As Mama Odie reminds her - and as Tiana later realized - her father died happy because even though he didn't get the restaurant he still had his family who he loved and loved him. Knowing this most likely helped Tiana come to terms with his death and it shows - she gets her restaurant but uses the green color scheme rather than yellow, as well as names it "Tiana's Palace" rather than "Tiana's Place" (which were things her dad had planned to use). It was her own restaurant.
Not only was she working two jobs, she was also working double shifts. I got the impression that her friends in the diner were mostly people that she knew from serving them all the time, not people that she ever saw outside of work. They probably were regulars at the diner and after seeing this friendly, well-known waitress all the time, decided to her invite her out. That's getting into WMG territory, I know, but the point is, I didn't get the sense that she had any sort of social life at all, it seemed to me that everybody (except Charlotte) knew her from her job.
Bothers me how the Loa were turned into devil wannabes. I mean, its not the first time Disney degraded a relatively non-malevolent mythological figure, but still for a movie that subverts the Hollywood Vodoo one would expect a more in-character portrayal of the F.O.T.O.S.; the Ghede Loa (which is the kind of entities the F.O.T.O.S. resemble the most) weren't technically evil after all
My understanding was that Facilier was just working with some of the more ominous Loa, like Baron Kriminiel: that said, I'd be interested in learning more about actual voodoo practices and how they relate to the movie. Like something that's been bugging me for a while: would the Loa be interested in human souls? Most of them seemed content with offerings like rum, gunpowder, and chickens from what I've read.
I don't think souls were ever supposed to be given as offerings; usually more material things were used as in most religious sacrifices.
They never say so, it's just sort of implied, but it's an interesting thought. A lot of practicioners talk about being attracted/attracting a particular type of Loa or having a special relationship with the ones they work with particularly, it's possible that the Friends are as bad as they are they're attracted to each other's dark sides.
Besides, Hades has had a bum rap for years now since Hercules got his movie.
I thought Hades was an jerk from the moment he kidnapped Persephone, but whatever.
No, actually that's how marriage worked in Ancient Greece.
If Hades is an jerk, then what is Zeus?
His younger brother. And a serial rapist.
Well depending on which version of the myth you read, Hades was under the influence of Eros' magic arrows when he fell in love with Persephone and decided to kidnap her, but yeah... Even so, he was far more civil than most of the other Olympians.
Actually it was Zeus who suggested to Hades to kidnap Persephone.
Don't forget that Mama Odie is heavily involved with voodoo as well - and she's an indisputably positive character. Perhaps Good Is Not Nice, given Louis' initial anxiety, but still good.
Well, Louis is a bit of a coward...
The shadow-Friends' creepy look was also a pretty obvious Fantasia homage.
Where on earth did Facilier's cane go during the big graveyard scene? He's pinning Tiana down with it, then Tiana grabs the talisman, and then... it just vanishes.
He tossed it aside when he went for the talisman shards. More interesting question is where did he get it from before he pinned Tiana. During the chase he didn't have it.
I recall the scene where the Doctor makes a deal with his FOTOS to hunt down Naveen. During that scene, he very quickly pulls it from his sleeve.
But it already vanished even before Tiana shattered the talisman. When the scene went back to her, now holding the talisman in her hands, she's still lying on her back like before, but the cane isn't there anymore.
He's a voodoo doctor. He owns a magic disappearing cane that conveniently shows up to threaten frogs and disappears when he's being dragged into the underworld by evil spirits. Problem solved.
I'm asking this because it seemed an important factor in the shattering of the talisman. Had Facilier CONTINUED to pin down Tiana, she wouldn't have been able to get up and slam it against the ground, no?
She might have. The talisman seemed to shatter rather easily, so she might have been able to twist her hand and crush it against the ground while she was pinned.
I studied that scene a bit because I noticed the same thing. When he's taunting her, he shifts his position so that he's more casually leaning on it with one hand, rather loosely. Then, when she snags the talisman, he's caught completely by surprise and his arm shifts to his left (cane's off-screen at this moment). It doesn't take too much to assume that, in his surprise, he lost his 'grip' on the cane and it fell over, freeing her enough to shatter the talisman. The cane's disappearance past that point is easier to shrug off.
After Facilier stepped on Ray he pinched his nose for a moment. Why? Do squashed fireflies stink so badly and strongly?
Fireflies actually do have a distinct, pungent smell that becomes more noticeable when they're squashed. But I think it was more of a gesture that he was collecting himself, brushing the bridge of his nose and adjusting his coat, putting himself back in control of the situation.
Ummm... the U.S. has laws against having titles that aren't earned ("Doctor" is allowed, but "King" isn't as it was just inherited). Because Tiana is an American citizen, she can't technically be a Princess... Headscratchers.
The curse would accept "Princess of Mardi Gras" to work, it probably figured "wife of a prince" was fair game too.
Not quite. She can have the title, it's just that it doesn't actually mean anything in America. So she can't have the title given to her by an American appointment (as in, Congress isn't allowed to declare anyone a knight, princess, whatever), but if Maldonia would recognize her as a princess, the fact that she's American doesn't change that.
Prince Rainer of Monaco married Grace Kelly. She was born and raised in an American city - Philadelphia, PA. She became Princess Grace.
Why would Charlotte have a dress that a.) wasn't pink and b.) was in Tiana's size?
Presumably she goes to functions where she isn't the center of attention, and thus needs something more appropriate. The dress is lovely but understated, at least for Lottie's wardrobe. As for their size, Lottie may have a few more curves, but not so much that it would be impossible for Tiana to wear her clothes. Or, alternatively, it was an older dress and Lottie's gained weight in the intervening time.
Lottie's the same size as Tiana. Her build's a bit different and she wears too many things that billow her up like a balloon, but the size is negligible. Having one dress that's not princess perfect does not really mean anything when she probably has hundreds of dresses, each of which is tailor-made.
In a deleted scene on the DVD, we see Eudora sewing that dress Lottie wears at her Masquerade Ball. And who is she using as a model for that dress? Her daughter, Tiana....obviously, the answer to your question, Tiana and Lottie are the same size. Just cause Lottie wears balloon dresses doesn't mean they aren't, I should think it would be obvious that Tiana can fit into said clothes.
Maybe being the Spoiled Sweet she is, have her dad pay Tiana's mom to make a dress for her? Or Tiana's mom practiced on her?
How the hell were the shadow demons able to survive Ray and Odie's light attacks? When exposed to intense light, they burn. How did they survive and regroup?
Maybe it doesn't actually kill them, but just temporarily disrupts their Earthly forms, forcing them to return to the Other Side.
Who ever said that the few that got blasted did survive?
It's safe to say the shadows Mama Odie disintegrated don't exist anywhere except in memories. The shadows Ray attacks get big "cigarette burns", which the shadows could recover from after Facilier stopped Ray from relentlessly attacking them till they were completely destroyed. The long-haired female shadow Ray burned in the chest is in the chase after Tiana with no burn.
This film was set in the early 1920's, right? What will happen to Tiana's restaurant when the market crashes in 1929? I know she'd have the better part of a decade to create a strong restaurant, but even strong businesses can fail in a depression.
That's when her habit of hoarding money in coffee tins instead of banks really comes in handy.
Also, she IS married to a prince, whose parents are extremely wealthy. They cut him off because he was a lazy, womanizing, useless leech, but now that he's the co-owner of a popular restaurant, there's no reason why his parents wouldn't help out a bit when times got tough.
I understand that, out of all the minority races, Disney has had the most bumpy relationship with African-Americans, but it still bugs me that people make such a big deal about the first black princess when we already have Jasmine, Pocahontas, and Mulan.
But Not Too Black. Jasmine was middle-eastern, Pocahantas was American, and Mulan was Asian (coincidentally, all cultures that get or have gotten the shaft when it comes to... what is that stupid phrase? Reversed discrimination?), but Tiana was the first female, human, Disney main character with direct ancestral connections to Africa recognizable by modern Americans. What I don't get is why people keep bringing up examples from the movie out of nowhere or where it simply doesn't fit (at least the latter have grounds for removal), since it's difficult to tell if it's happening because it's recent (my guess), because it's hyped for being racially inclusive and set in a recognizable era of Real Life (makes the "recent" thing happen more), or if it's just because it really is that awesome/cute/cool/well-written (Crowning Music of Awesome doesn't count towards anything but the soundtrack).
Actually, a lot of people were angry because of that. "How come it took sooo long to make a black princess when you have all the other ones?" like they were deliberately putting it off. But I actually think that might be a good thing. The animators are still a bunch of privileged white men, but at least now it's a lot easier to call them out on it. If they had made a black princess in the early nineties they probably would have tried to make her all "hip" and "jivey". There's also no way they would have done an interracial romance with a black girl at the time. Esmeralda and Pocahontas were accepted because the idea of white men hooking up with exotic gypsies and Indian Princesses has been romanticized for a long time. Also, note that with the exception of Mulan, the earlier heroines of color (Jasmine, Pocahontas, Esmeralda, Kida) have that exotic pornstar look. I rather like that Tiana is a classy dream girl a la Belle instead of an exoticized fantasy.
Uh...I find this complaint a bit of a double standard. First of all, Are you seriously trying to tell me that Ariel isn't drawn with the "exotic pornstar" look in the same way they are? Same huge boobs, same long, flowy hair, same skimpy outfit. Esmerelda looks more conservative than her! So...its okay to draw a white character like that, but a non-white character is racist? Kida IS quite skimpy and IS drawn to be the exotic island princess, but that has been done by pretty much everyone (think of the princess from Avatar) So...Its only racist if its Disney? (That happens so often, it should be a trope). And I think the reason Pocahontas and Esmerelda's relationships happened not because that kind of relationship is "already accepted," but because they are in a position in time and a place where that was actually possible. Jasmine was in the middle of medieval Arabia, Mulan in the middle of ancient China. Not a whole lot of available white guys for the taking. Why do you think PaTF had to be moved to the 1920's?
Uh, maybe Ariel wasn't mentioned as a "heroine of color" because she's uh, pretty definitely white. She also makes for one deliberately sexualized white heroine out of several non-pornoriffic white heroines (Snow White, Aurora, Cinderella, Belle), as compared to Mulan and Tiana being two heroines of color out of several deliberately sexualized ones (Jasmine, Pocahontas, Esmerelda, Kida). Ariel is the exception, not the rule. Pocahontas gets extra points for being modeled after several supermodels and aged up to a nubile twentysomething specifically for the purposes of her romance plot with John Smith.
Also, Ariel isn't exactly human.
Neither Mulan nor Pocahontas are princesses! The former is married to a high-ranking soldier and the latter is the daughter of a Chief; Native Americans don't have a royalty/aristocracy setup.
Technically, since Pocahontas is the chief's daughter, she is, in fact, a princess.
But they are both still in the Disney Princess line up.
Tinkerbell often finds her way in the whole Disney Princess lineup too and she isn't a princess.
I noticed this one the first time I saw the movie, and it's been bugging me ever since. Tiana has saved up the whatever number of dollars needed to buy the sugar mill, and then she is outbid. Uh, yeah, this means she still has her money. Buy another building. I know, I know, she wanted that specific building, but she's acting like they stole her life savings without giving anything back.
It's possible that was the only restaurant-able building she could afford. Mebbe.
Also remember that someone commented on "her background...". In those days even if she had won being female and African-American would probably make her be disqualified and the building handed over to the second highest bidder.
So the realtor (or whatever) was only willing to take her money if she was the only bidder? That's stupid. But even putting that aside, there must've been someone else who would sell her a building. She has the cash in her hand. This isn't extending a loan to a person unlikely to be able to pay it back due to her station, she can pay now!
Tiana talked about saving enough for a 'down-payment'. My impression is that that was what she had, and the realtors got another bidder that paid the entire amount upfront. And while the timing of the new bid was weird, the realtors seemed very happy to sell it to Tiana before the festival. (Plus, there might have been another buyer that was hoping for the price to drop, and made his bid when he realized the building was about to be sold) Their attempt at comforting her did show they weren't above some racial prejudice, but as far as we saw they made a reasonable business decision, and the ending they are essentially forced to sell for her poorer bid at alligator-point was a bit... excessive.
It upset her because that was the place her father wanted. Eudora states "Your daddy was always talking about this old sugar mill". Likely, the place became available sometime early in her teens, Tiana's dad passed away a few years after and she continued working for the chance to buy it. The realtors probably didn't even have another buyer, given how long they'd have gone without one already, and were just racist.
That. Until the end of the movie, Tiana spends all of her time dreaming about her restaurant being exactly as her father planned it, not how she wanted it. Think of it like Carl slavishly trying to set his house exactly where he and Elle planned, instead of any of the other suitable places.
Why didn't Facilier take away Naveen's ability to talk? Even if he escaped, he surely wouldn't have been able to get any help from nearby Princesses.
Maybe he didn't know how. As some people have noted, Facilier seemed to be more flash than substance. Taking away his voice might have been a trick he didn't know.
Or he left Naveen his voice so he and Lawrence could question him about things only he would know. Lawrence presumably wouldn't know everything about his boss's personal life, and it's possible that the two of them had plans to take over Maldonia after conquering New Orleans, meaning they'd need to sustain their impersonation for years.
How come Facilier (apparently) needs a newspaper to find out more about Naveen, but somehow knows EXACTLY what Tiana wants in life? Right up to mimicking her imagine spot to an uncanny fashion?
The conspicuously placed newspaper might have just been to throw them off and make him seem more harmless. It's also possible that he just used some sort of "Show her her wildest dreams" spell on Tiana, with him having no idea what would actually appear.
It also seems to just be common knowledge that Tiana is saving up. Everyone Tiana works with seems well aware of Tiana's goals.
There's a bit of Fridge Brilliance there. You know that scene where Tiana was working in the cafe and finally gets enough money for her restaurant? Doctor Facilier happened to be there, stalking Big Daddy.
Another idea: Remember how much Facilier really doesn't want to ask his 'friends' for help? It's quite possible that the powder, whatever it was, was only enough for a single use, and otherwise he relies on old-fashioned searching, since, well...if you had the choice between putting in a little more work or owing more souls, what would you pick? Look at his expression when he's throwing it down: the man is desperate and terrified.
I don't think the powder is one use—we see him using it at the beginning of the movie as well, to give a random guy on the street more hair—but I do think it's entirely reasonable to assume that Facilier is aware of people in the city in much the same way as Mama Odie is. Sort of a voodoo perk, knowledge of the people in your own stomping ground. Even if it's only knowledge of significant people in the city, Tiana's father seems to be well-liked in their community, based on the back porch cook-out framed around their family. Naveen is from outside the city, so Facilier doesn't have a clue of such background knowledge about him. Also, it's clear Tiana knows about Facilier—even discounting the line, "You been messin' with the Shadow Man?!" she names him on sight when they come face to face towards the end. Maybe they've had a run-in before.
Regarding the original question: My guess is that Dr. Facilier has some method of tapping into Tiana's memories.
One of the morals appears to be that your dreams mean nothing unless you're sharing them with someone. Fine, okay, but apparently in order to share your dream with someone, you must be married. The implication that you're never truly complete without marriage bugs me lots.
It's more about how you have make room in your life for love.
Er, I think you're over-thinking it. The story had two people fall in love, so they wanted to get married. The story never said you had to get married.
Uh, hello? Without them getting married, they would have stayed frogs and Tiana would have been a happily-married frog (maybe), but she never would have gotten her original dream. It's a valid point, to say that marriage was necessary for the happy ending.
If that was the intended message this qualifies as the worlds biggest Space Frog Aesop.
The moral is wants over needs, with love being what Naveen and Tiana needed. Arguably there's a bit of Unfortunate Implications at play that they're willing to abandon their human lives to be frogs together, but they kind of had no other choice by that point. Plus, Charlotte seems to find more companionship/friendship with Naveen's brother than marriage, and she seems quite fulfilled, not to mention Louis achieving his dream without hooking up with anyone.
I have to say that I'm with the OP. In fact, it was the only thing that bothered me about the movie, not the fact that the heroine falls in love and get married (It's a Disney movie), but the whole preaching about having success is worthless without a husband and family sharing it. Some people are single and happy, ya know?
Not to mention that Tiana's dreams always included her mother and yet was still drawn as being insufficient. If it was just about family and not about marriage/romantic love, that's all she should have needed.
Why does Louis mention wanting to eat Bananas Foster, when they weren't invented until 1951?
It was probably just a mistake on the part of the writing staff. (It happens...)
It annoys me that people are displeased with the movie/Disney because it took Disney so long to have a black princess,(or something else surrounding Tiana's ethnicity...) or because 1920's New Orleans wasn't depicted properly, but if they really made it where it was more realistic, the cries of "racist" would be even louder. It was a very good movie in its own right, and is (in my opinion) as amazing as the original Disney Animated Canon films were. It's as good as Aladdin, my favorite Disney film.
Seconded by me. It's a Disney movie people, not a history lesson!
I am actually glad that Disney didn't try to heavily lean on a race issue moral. The real life situations at the time would have been far too sticky and complicated to properly portray and if Disney had tried, they only would have made people even angrier (like with Pocahontas). They still touched on the racism enough to show it was there, not enough to completely confuse kids, and were pretty good with the issue.
Why did some people think the think the film was racist at first because Tiana was going to be called "Maddie"? Maddie is not a "slave name", it is short for Madeline, a French name, and many slaves were given generic English names like "George", "Will" or "Katerine".
Because it kinda sorta sounds like "Mammy". Yeah, I dunno, that was apparently the issue.
Tiana and Naveen kind of give up on reversing the transformation pretty easily - sure, Charlotte's not a "princess" anymore, but if that sort of thing qualifies, there should be tons of other opportunities. They're still talking frogs. Why not have Naveen's dad call up King George and try to explain the situation? (which would also, incidentally, be a totally hilarious conversation)
Well it wasn't actually said that they did give up. They just said that they were going to be together and get married. It's possible that after marrying and getting things settled, they would have gone on to try to find a new princess to solve the issue.
Alternatively: They were going to spend a year with some excuse—explain stuff to the mom post-marriage, say they were going on a long honeymoon, etc.—and just wait a year. This was Big Daddy's fourth year in a row as Mardi Gras king, there was no reason to believe Charlotte wouldn't be princess again next year. Or maybe Tiana figured it out and said she wanted to get married, and Naveen went "what the heck," deciding to look later.
This is just a minor nitpick, but even if Tiana and Naveen hadn't transformed back into humans by marrying, the chance of them having to spend the rest of their lives as frogs is pretty low, because Big Daddy implies earlier in the film that he gets voted King of Mardi Gras every year (well, the last five years anyway). The worst case scenario would have been them being frogs for one year until Charlotte became a princess again, which is a pretty big bummer in its own right, but not as bad as being frogs for the rest of their lives.
Well, if the whole "Princess of Mardi Gras" thing counts, then surely there are plenty of metaphorical princesses that would work. Plus, if Naveen has any aunts or female cousins, they would also be princesses as well.
There's even the possibility that Naveen's mother is a princess too. And Naveen's parents probably have connections of some sort to pretty much every single eligible princess in Europe, if not the world.
Why is Naveen the only frog in the movie with teeth? Tiana didn't get any once she transformed by accident.
Because his smile is the defining part of his character design.
Naveen's frog form was deliberately designed to be an African species of frog that have teeth.
Most frogs have teeth. Just not very big or strong ones.
While I loved the movie, Facilier bugged me a lot. He was absolutely a great villain, but Disney seemed to want to tell us even less about him then usual with Disney villains. Apparently all he owed the Shadows on the other side a great amount, yet it seems all the powers he himself has are a polymorph:frog/tongues hybrid and some fancy illusions. Why exactly would you either sell your own soul for just those spells(plus some stuff related to the shadows) let alone need millions of souls to repay the debt?
Two more words: John Lassiter. DTV sequels aren't made anymore.
5, count them, 5 direct to DVD Tinkerbell movies would disagree with that.
The Tinkerbell movies are more and less their own franchise, so I don't think they count.
When "Naveen" (really Lawrence) is announced, Charlotte fixes her mascara, applies a fake beauty spot, lobs glitter over herself, and a follow-spot lights from opposite the stairway she is up. My question is - where was the scaffolding for that follow-spot in the later shot with Tiana on left of frame and the Fenners on the right? Unless the angles were chosen to suggest they were shooting around the scaffold?
She's Big Daddy's Girl. If she wants a spotlight, there is a spotlight on her. If they had to tear down the entire building and rebuild it with that in mind, he would make it so.
Tiana's family is meant to be fairly poor right? It bugs me that their house is so large. Their kitchen is absolutely massive and Tiana's bedroom looks more like a master bedroom than the kind of bedroom you'd give a small child. I don't know about houses in New Orleans, but around here low rent houses are very, very small. I guess it bugs me a little because I really liked the transition from the rich neighborhood to the poorer neighborhood, and this little detail kind of ruins the effect for me. Am I missing something?
Well, they ARE fairly poor, but keep in mind that Tiana's mother was frequently commissioned by the wealthiest guy in town. Plus, Tiana's father did work triple shifts. Maybe they bought the house in an attempt to give Tiana everything they never had, and worked themselves to the limit so they could afford it.
Don't know about the bedroom, but maybe the kitchen only looks so big because Tiana's a little girl and everything look's bigger when you're a half-pint.
If they were living outside of the city itself, then it wouldn't be much of a stretch for them to be living in a house that size. A lot of the area outside of New Orleans wasn't very well developed even as of the 60's when my dad was growing up (They grew food and raised chickens in their back yard, about a 20 minute drive from the French Quater).
Possibly when they acquired the house, Tiana's parents hadn't expected her to be an only child. Cram two or three little sisters in that room, and it'd be pretty cramped.
Some people now say that out of all the Disney princes, Naveen is the only one with a personality. Ummm, hello?! Does Aladdin not count now? He most definately has a personality along with the Beast and Shang. Naveen may be a bit more quirky, but come on now.
Aladdin was never a prince. For majority of his franchise he was a Street Rat and became Sultan or King at the very end. Shang was the son of General, not a Prince. Now you have a point with Beast however.
Jasmine's father did not abdicate the throne immediately after the wedding. Aladdin certain counts as a prince at the end of the third movie.
Mulan's not royalty, but she's still a Disney Princess, and the Disney Princes are the love interests of the Disney Princesses, so Aladdin and Shang count.
This is standard Fan Dumb of the highest order. If we limit it only to the "Princess" movies, we've still got, in addition to Aladdin and Beast, Eric and Flynn/Eugene (though maybe those people are referring to before Tangled was released?). And even if we limit it only to the "Princess" movies where the Princess starts out as a Princess from the beginning and is the main character, we still have Eric. And if you include all the Princes in the canon, you've got, at the very least, Bambi, Simba, and Prince John.
If Naveen had been stuck as a frog, what would his parents, king and queen of a whole country, have done? Surely they could've tracked down a willing princess for one measly kiss.
And any of his female cousins would have counted. Plus, if the "Princess of Mardi Gras" counts, then surely there are plenty of other figurative princesses that could have worked too.
He did have a younger brother. The Heir and the Spare thing.
That guy dressed up as an octopus as the masquerade ball. How was he controlling all eight arms?
What was it that Ray called the talisman? A "hayacall?" Since we're dealing with Lousiana Voodoo, I thought it was called a gris-gris.
My understanding is that "heyacall" is another term for gris-gris.
I looked 'Hayacall' up. It's the Cajun term for an unknown object or creature. Ray calls the talisman it because he doesn't know what it is.
Hayacall isn't a word; it's shorthand for "How you call", sort of a Cajun equivalent to "whatchamacallit". He was basically calling it a voodoohickey.
Why was Tiana working at such low down places? Nothing against it, it looked nice, but it wasn't exactly the high class restaurant where you'd have big tippers. Yeah, Big Daddy showed up, but that was mainly because of Tiana's food, not the cooks. She's an amazing waitress and a brilliant cook, so why wouldn't a better restaurant hire her?
She's a black woman in the 1920s Deep South. Raw talent can only get you so far...
Far enough to get you the most successful restaurant in New Orleans if you open up as manager and head chef. The customers didn't mind at all, but the other restaurant owners did?
How did Facilier know who, or what, the other frog was? He never saw her transform, and he shouldn't have noticed her being gone, so for all he knew, that was just a regular frog. How'd he know she was a human, and then how'd he know she was Tiana?
The same way he and Mama Odie knew who Tiana's father was?
If Facilier really is a prince by his mother, why didn't he ever try to marry Charlotte? Its not like a certain other magic user who tried to marry a rich mans daughter in another Disney movie, this one was sexy as all get out.
Facilier's a black man living in the South in the 1920's. He'd end up hanging from a tree if he tried marrying Charlotte.
He's darker than Facilier. Watch at :25, Naveens skin is a darker colour.
But he's not of African descent, he doesn't have black facial features, and there's no history of racism against Maldonians in the US. Facilier is probably mixed race which is why he has lighter skin, but he'd still be considered black.
Well, as anyone who knows anything about race relations in the U.S. would know, darkness of skin tone has almost nothing at all do with whether someone counts as "black" or not.
Most likely, he was lying about being royalty. He was a con man running through his pitch.
...what purpose would that serve?
Probably just trying to make himself seem more relatable. May have the whole "I can relate to you, keep listening" kinda shtick.
Maybe he was just joking?
He just said something about royalty. For all we know, he's descended from someone who wasn't heir to the throne (younger sibling perhaps) who ran off with a scullery maid. If he was a known prince, Charlotte would already be all over that.
In the opening number, we see Facilier being a Literal Genie, turning the guy who asked for hair into a werewolf. Umm, why? What did he gain from this? If his goal is cash, wouldn't doing a great job bring you more business, instead of cursing everyone who comes to you?
He didn't turn him into a werewolf, he just gave him loads of hair. Maybe Fore Shadowing that Facilier gives you exactly what you want but screws your life up in the process?
He's a Jerkass. Also, money didn't seem to be the object, he wanted a)power, b)revenge, and c)to pay off his soul-debt.
Facilier wanted power, revenge, and to get his soul-debt paid off but he wanted be financially wealthy too. He told Lawrence "the greatest power in the world isn't magic, it's money. Buckets of it". As far as Facilier's business not doing well because he isn't treating customers right, Faciler must figure there'd always be people who don't know his reputation (especially tourists) coming to try his business so his business will keep bringing in money. Facilier and his shadow can pick people's pockets since they're stealthy as ninjas (Lawrence to Facilier: Oh, you're so quiet.) Humiliating his betters is one of Facilier's perks in life. The man Facilier cursed with lots of hair has more advantages than Facilier for being white so Facilier wouldn't need more reason than that to have some fun with the man.
His FOTOS aren't very nice. Maybe they won't give Facilier powers that actually help people.
Wouldn't Facilier get over heated if he's wearing all black in New Orleans?
The air conditioned suit is obviously his debt to the Friends on the Other Side.
Moreover, he's wearing an all black suit in February or early March. New Orleans isn't sub-tropical or anything; it can get cold in winter.
Facilier's tails-coat and pants are dark purple. Compare them to his black top hat.
Why wasn't Charlotte turned into a frog when she kissed Naveen and it didn't change him back like Tiana was?
By that point Facilier was dead, so maybe the spell couldn't bounce around.
Also, if you look up a bit, you'll find this has already been discussed.
They never flat out say that anybody who isn't a princess who kisses the frog will turn into a frog. That just happened to have happened for Tiana. There could be other reasons why Tiana turned. Also, the fact that Charlotte actually was a princess at some point, and Tiana never was may also have had something to do with it.
Okay, maybe I'm missing something here. Facilier's scheme fell apart because Naveen escaped, right? Otherwise, it probably would have been successful. So I have a question. Why did he need to use Lawrence at all? Naveen was planning on marrying Charlotte anyway, and Facilier was apparently "charismatic" enough to manipulate him. I guess what I'm asking is, why not assist Naveen in getting with Charlotte, kill her dad, and then take control of New Orleans? Any reason besides 'then we wouldn't have a movie'?
My guess is either because Naveen didn't need any help getting Charlotte, making Facilier's assistance useless, or because he thought Lawrence would be easier to manipulate. Probably the latter; If Facilier's plan had worked then Lawrence would have been totally in his control because any resistance would be met with the threat of exposing Lawrence to Charlotte and making him a butler again. There really wasn't anything he could hold over Naveen's head.
Charlotte's only standard was for a prince, which Naveen was. There was pretty much no way Naveen could not get Charlotte on his own. Naveen didn't want Facilier to win Charlotte, I'm sure he was confident enough that he figured he could get her on his own. Naveen wanted Facilier's help because he wanted the money without the commitment that marrying Charlotte would carry.
Does the song "Don't Matter Want You Look Like" seem a little warped to anybody else? I can kinda understand the 'accept yourself' aesop, and it actually applies to Louis who was born a gator. But Tiana and Naveen were cursed into being frogs. They both had lives to get back to. Why shouldn't they want to be human again?
She wasn't really talking about them being frogs (she did tell them how to fix that, after all), but their larger goals (Tiana's restaurant and Naveen marrying Charlotte for money).
She wasn't talking about that either. The song is about getting what you need, not what you want. They could have been- and were fully prepared to be- happy as frogs, as long as they had each other. What they needed was each other, and everything else would fall into place afterward "when you find out who you are, and find out what you need, blue skies and sunshine are guaranteed".
The film is set when prohibition was going on, yet in one scene Naveen offers everyone a drink and at the party some guy is drinking wine. Now, it's understandable that Naveen wouldn't be familiar with the law, as he's a foreigner and only just arrived in the States, but several people can be heard cheering when he makes the offer.
Fridge Brilliance, of course they'd be cheering because alcohol was quite hard to get to and expensive due to prohibition in the 1920's.
Who says he meant alcohol? Maybe he meant whatever non-alcoholic drink they served during that time period.
Soda was the common alternative for alcohol in those days.
Then, as now, New Orleans is a place where folks don't generally let legalities interfere with their good times. Even during prohibition it was never very difficult to get a drink there.
Madam Odie says in her song about Naveen that he doesn't need his old rich lifestyle back because he wasn't happy then. He wasn't? The only thing he seemed displeased with while we saw him as a human was that his parents had stopped giving him money, and he was enjoying his time as a playboy in New Orleans too. Even during his introspection, he said he only became somber after he was kicked to the curb and realized he didn't know how to make a living.
That's not really happiness either; at least, not that kind that would last. Eventually he'd find himself too old to dance all day, or inherit the throne, or otherwise find himself being unable to distract himself with parties and playing; it's implied that the party life is what he does just because he doesn't know how to do anything else. That is, it's not a choice, it's a lack of options.
His party lifestyle kept him entertained, but that's not necessarily the same thing as "happy" or "content".
So, am I the only troper who wants to see Tiana and Naveen traveling to Maldonia and her getting officially married as a princess? I mean, I know she had a second wedding after the bayou wedding with Naveen's parents in attendance, and what looked to be royal knights from their kingdom, but does that really count?
Its a wedding, so yes it counts. Heck, Naveen may choose not to take the throne if he really, really does not want it. He still has a younger brother that can take the job if Naveen refuses. There might be a ceremony confirming Tiana as a princess of Maldonia later, but its official. As of her wedding day Tiana would be recognized as and treated like a princess from the second she steps foot in Maldonia.
Where is Maldonia? Europe? Middle East? Africa? Naveen is quite ... Tan? so I have not really clear exactly which part of the world is supposed that he is.
It was left deliberately ambiguous.
I always thought it was somewhere in Europe based on the royal clothing style seen at the "official" wedding in the city.
Why DID kissing a princess reverse the transformation? I mean, the only reason that occurred to Naveen at all was because Tiana squashed him with the Frog Prince book, a story that he was very familiar with. Given that he was cursed by a witch doctor, with voodoo being something that is regional enough to presumably not be around in Maldonia, where he heard the Frog Prince every night, that story would really have nothing to do with voodoo. So was it just a coincidence that Mama Odie revealed that kissing a princess would reverse it?
Turning people into frogs, in itself, has nothing to do with voodoo. Maybe Facilier got the idea from the same fairy tale as everyone else, so he had to abide by its rules?
When Tiana first meets Prince Naveen (in his frog form) she walks backwards and crashes into some shelves. When she does that, the lights go out as well. Why? Did she accidentally whack a light switch when she hit the shelves?
Does Facilier know for a fact that Maldonian currency is green? Because his deceptive promise of "green" in Naveen's future wouldn't work too well if Naveen thinks of money as being some other color.
That, or Naveen was probably aware that US dollars are green.
Facilier turned his cards into green dollar bills while he said that, so Naveen would have had to be pretty dumb not to make the connection.
It always bothered me that after Lottie kissed Naveen, the curse wasn't lifted and she apologized... that she just kinda walks away. She had a pond on her estate; she could have offered them to live there instead of the bayou.
Why does Lawrence have Frog!Naveen with him on the Mardi Gras float? Even assuming it was a precaution in case he started running low on blood, did he think he'd be able to pull out a frog and draw blood from it with no one noticing and wondering why?
Lawrence is keeping Naveen close to make sure he doesn't escape again.
In one of the deleted scenes, where Eudora is sewing a dress using Tiana as a model, she accidentally pokes her with a pin and jokes "Serves you right for quitting your job like that." Wasn't she against having her daughter work two jobs?