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for ongoing cleanup projects.
They need a talking-to reeeeeeeeeeally badly.
It occurred to me I didn't actually say what the new signature is (I know it's shown on the forum links, but for the sake of convenience, I'll post it):
"You say "Consensus", I say "Obstructive Bureaucracy."
Yeahhhhh...
Edited by WarJay77 Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Oof. Yeah, I don't blame you at all for wanting something done about this. 4tell's attitude is not right for someone who wants to contribute to the wiki.
Still hoping for Klonoa to get a new game... or a movie like this
Is it weird that I feel kinda guilty for bringing up the Relative Button issues in the first place? The issues for which I started a TRS Thread because I honestly think that the trope as it is written is essentialy "would you like to hear how they died” but more specific.
Nope. You posted it in the right place.
^^ Nope, you're just fine. In fact, I'm completely in agreement with the TRS thread and think it should be expanded- just, ya know, not the way 4tell is trying to do it.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
I think now that I have an idea how TRS works, I won't have misunderstandings like I did in the TDID.
Not going to comment on 4tell other than that I think that ignoring consensus is unproductive on this site.
Feels good, don't it?
Admittedly, I was super nervous to post this because I was worried I was just blowing things out of proportion or taking things too seriously, so I'm at least glad to know people agree this needs some sort of resolution.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Their (second-to-last) comment here made me raise a brow.
Okay, here's something I wasn't able to find earlier: The TLP draft for Memetic Comparison, an attempt to resurrect the then-recently cut Counterpart Comparison. 4tell was...well, let me just say they made their thoughts on the cut very clear, while at one point stating that the only reason the trope was cut was because people don't want to do the cleanup effort. It got me quite a bit angry, so you'll see me go off on a bit of a rant there, but this is the example I was thinking of when I said it felt like talking to a wall. (And if you know me, you know I'm one of the more active cleanup tropers, so they essentially pressed a Berserk Button there. Can't apologize too much for getting heated as a result.)
This will certainly produce a civil solution.
I know a lot of times when they will act... strangely. There was this one draft where they said "How about we make it about something completely unrelated?", only to be shot down by the OP. But after that they just kept going on there suggestion.
Edited by EarthboundFan
I've had my issues with them in the past in TLP; they've been previously suspended at least once for similar shenanigans. I've queried the other mods for input but I've a feeling I know what's going to happen.
Edited by Willbyr
I don't know exactly what to do, but yeah, I've had bad experience with them in the past. They seemed to have a bit of an attitude problem. I thought maybe I was doing something wrong but now I know that even when I did screw up, it wasn't that bad.
For every low there is a high.
I do want to reiterate my main concern, which is their apparent unwillingness to work with consensus. The pattern seems to be that if they think something should be a certain way, they'll stubbornly push their own opinions forward, even if the methods of doing so are against the rules, and often act like they're in the right for doing so. I don't want the main issue to get lost here.
Edited by WarJay77 Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
After some internal discussion, we have suspended 4tell, primarily because this is not the first time their TLP/TF behavior has been questionable.
Is it just me thinking this, or has 4tell0life4 taken to posting on the TLP Crash Rescue thread just to say all the things he didn't get to say on the drafts themselves before they got launched? Here's a few examples...
- 4tell0life4 claiming there's no harm in posting on "that draft"
- 4tell0life4 petitioning to change Asinine Alternate Activity to "Fun Activity, Boring Activity" after it was already determined that the current name is just as clear, more concise, and more witty with alliteration.
- another troper's observation on 4tell0life4's behavior
It's not just you. I've had that suspicion for a while too.
Yeah, he's still doing the same behavior, just off TLP.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Since this is about conduct on a forum thread, would it be better to Holler their posts, maybe pointing to this ATT for additional context?
I also question the necessity of bumping two year(s) old ATT threads.
Please holler those posts...I'd bring them up in the mods' off-site chat but I'm about to be tied up with a training course.
Unrelated but a different gripe - I'm getting very tired of cleaning up their grammar gaffes on the various Honkai Impact 3rd-related pages.
This was a month ago, but I got irritated by 4tell when they demanded the School Setting Simulation trope to be unlaunched and its title renamed to just "School Level". Since I was fresh off crosswicking all 44+ wicks at the time of launch, I was annoyed and miffed, and I had to tell them off directly in this post. What I don't get about 4tell is their unwillingness to DM people about what they think of the drafts before launching, because they seem to intentionally wait for a launch just to tell sponsors that they don't like it afterwards. It's both rude and unfair.
A TLP ban does block one from seeing comments (and this can't be bypassed by logging out), so we'd like to believe that they're waiting because they hope someone else is bringing up the issue. Still, it's kinda eh.
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
^ Even so, I don't know what's stopping them from DMing us directly (assuming they're not DM banned as well, that is).
For future reference, people, queries that are very old (this one was from eight months ago, and the other one related to this issue will turn 1 year near the end of this month) should not be revived. Writing a new query about an old problem that arises again is preferable.
135 - 169 - 273 - 191 - 188 - 230 - 300
It seems like they actively try to prove that newly-launched tropes should be sent back by comparing them to tropes that are either fine enough as a distinct sister trope/subtrope/supertrope or just wholly unrelated. Since they sometimes outright misunderstand tropes in trying to prove the newer trope is a duplicate, it seemed to be doing more harm than good. I find it odd for someone to be bumped off TLP for not being constructive in their criticism, and then continue the exact same behavior elsewhere. I sometimes get the feeling they just straight-up don't want new tropes to exist.
Edited by mightymewtron I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Not new behavior for them; following their activity on Trope Talk and on Trope Finder shows a consistent lack of understanding about what certain tropes are and when they're proven wrong they never back down, they just keep pushing that something needs to be fixed even when there's no evidence of that.
Edited by WarJay77 Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
"I sometimes get the feeling they just straight-up don't want new tropes to exist."
For what it's worth, while I don't know them well I can second this impression - I don't think it's actually true, but they do give off the vibe of being EXTREMELY far to the "lumper" side in the "lumper vs. splitter" debate.
To take one specific recent example, I was deeply weirded out by this whole exchange in the TLP Crash Thread, where they insisted the new trope Ghost Invasion was potentially the same as The Wild Hunt while not seeming to have even read the latter page's definition.
I can confirm I had the same issues with them, and all of them: rude remarks on TLP, insisting that two tropes are the same (TLP of Love Doodles here), identifying a wrong trope on trope finder and insisting that the match is good enough, and bringing up issues with newly launched tropes. The last one can be okay if done correctly since they're TLP suspended and can't comment there.
It's also fair to say they are all fairly old instances. Sometimes 4tell brings up relevant issues, but their inability to work with consensus is worrisome.
Edited by XFllo
Again, since this is now about their forum behavior, and as noted by Willbyr, holler their problematic posts.
Sure. It's just relevant to point out that this has been going on for ages and is a sign that they didn't learn from the original suspensions, or at least they never actually understood why they were suspended in the first place and thus are continuing their problematic behavior.
I'll holler from now on, though I should say that not all of their arguments are flawed; it's just that they tend to jump to conclusions about new tropes really quickly and are prone to giving their opinion on things that they lost the right to really have a say on, like the name of a new trope, which is decided by TLP consensus. Or, at least, they seem to take the general approach that everyone else is wrong and they know what's up.
But yeah. This thread has served it's purpose. The problem has been made clear; now we need to holler.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
I've suspended them from editing and posting, given the concerns (grammar and problematic TLP-related behaviours, respectively) here.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Sorry if that's too off-topic, but what is hollering? I think I knew once but I forgot.
For every low there is a high.
The "Holler This" button on the forums, it sends a notifier to the moderators to deal with something.
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods Of Incremental)
The three dots at the upper right of a post, when it isn't your post, has three options: [Avatar Gallery], [Send Message], and [Holler This].
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Welp, they attempted ban evasion and have been bounced.
I think it would be pertinent to request a lock on this query, since everything that needed to be done has been done.
Feels good, don't it?
^^ Why? I don't get why 4tell chose to ban evade instead of appeal their suspension. Granted, it was their choice. A poorly made choice, but a choice at that.
On a whim, I looked over the Edit/Banned thread in the forums and found that 4tell had been in there four times within a year. Three of those were for the same offense and the last one had the moderator tell him they didn't see any reason to lift his ban. I'm guessing he didn't think he could appeal.
I don't know why he didn't try to work within this site's guidelines. It's not like they're negotiable.
Eh, too late now to speculate. I would note though that it never seemed like 4tell actually attempted to appeal beyond the first suspension, which they did get released from; so I think they could've had a shot if they made an attempt. But it's not our concern anymore.
Let's just lock this. If they ban evade again, that'd be a new thread.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
For the record, they did inquire about this most recent suspension but apparently got impatient for a response. Locking as this is now done.
Edit: Ugh, I'm sorry this is such a wall of text, but I think all the information is important, so I can't trim it too much :(
That something is related to Tropers/{{4tell0life4}}. Now, I want to preface this by saying that I'm not doing this to try and get them suspended, as I think their actual editing is fine, and no big issues have been caused by this so far. I just think it's something that needs to be resolved, as it's been grating on my nerves for a while now, and is a recurring pattern of behavior with them.
They seem to have an issue with the whole... "Consensus" thing. You don't need to take my word for it- their new signature even confirms this; but their actions do, too. Take, for instance, their old TLP record- at least twice, they'd attempted to overrule draft consensus and push their own feelings forward, once where they tried to ignore a crowner going against their opinion
, and of course, that time they threatened to change examples on a draft because they didn't want them to be there.
They were already banned for being rude on the TLP, but this isn't to do with that- it's to do with their unwillingness to accept that the wiki has to work by consensus, and that big changes need proper discussion.
Why am I bringing this up now? Well, there's been a specific trend on Trope Finder where he'll suggest an unfitting trope, myself or someone else will point out they're using that trope incorrectly, and then they'll insist that the trope itself needs to be changed. This in and of itself isn't a big deal- but they always seem to want to make these changes on the Trope Description Improvement Drive, despite that changes like this actually change the meaning of the trope, and require Trope Repair Shop.
Here's
one debate I had with them over how to fix Assumed Win, and the ensuing TDID post
where they did in fact attempt to change the trope's meaning there. Just recently, the same thing is happening with Relative Button: They're declaring the trope not broad enough
and taking it to TDID, rather than TRS
, because they think changing the description like this doesn't change the meaning of the trope, I assume because they already believe the trope's description is "wrong"- rather than that it just doesn't trope what they think it should. There are a lot of similar Trope Finder debates we've had that weren't immediately taken to the forums, and we also had similar arguments on TLP and the forums itself, where it just felt like I was arguing with a wall, who seemed to think that wiki-consensus on things like cut tropes and appearance tropes
is just bureaucracy and that the solution is more cleanup, not fixing the problem at it's source.
All in all, this just really worries me, not to mention that their new sig may actually be a shot at me; I don't want to make accusations, but I've used the term "consensus" in a lot of conversations with them, so it makes me a little wary. It all just adds up to someone whose attitude about wiki-issues is at odd with the rest of the wiki's, and someone who doesn't seem to enjoy getting proper consensus before they change things (or, alternatively, dislike what consensus produces).
Edited by WarJay77