Pokémon anime

I think post-Kanto the series stopped being a family show, and became just a kid's show.

re: Charmeleon, I'm thinking that it was just the writers showing the rebelliousness of a traded Pokemon... which they didn't really think through. Still, I believe that, like a whole lot else that happened in Kanto, Charmeleon was a Necessary Fail for Ash to be the Trainer he was in Hoenn, let alone today.

Then again, as stated, Shudo didn't think through the whole bit about being a Pokemon Trainer in a world full of Pokemon. I don't care whether Pokemon were a series of genetic mutations or an invasive Kingdom/Domain: unless you're saying out-and-out that Pokemon were encountered within the last century, your society needed to incorporate them. While his bratty Kanto years were a good thing for Ash to have then, the society that that attitude and similar ones (e.g. Misty) was formed from was significantly flawed from a world building standpoint. Yes, I know, Like Reality, Unless Noted, but when a 9 year old boy can easily watch a tournament consisting of teams of monsters fighting other such teams, then there is a degree of societal acceptance that says that these monsters are an established faucet of life, even if that's the only purpose they are used for. But even the original games had Machamp working as part of a construction crew under human direction.

Shudo's version of a Pokemon world is analogous to a galaxy far, far away with few intelligent lifeforms other than humans and where droids are a rarity. A New Hope showed that droids were ubiquitous as utility workers of varying sorts, even if their serial sequences (e.g. R2-D2) suggested a small droid population, and also had the Jawa and Tuskens.^note The Cantina scene, however, was just a bunch of ascended extras; the Empire should have had more non-humans in its ranks per capita than it showed, leading the Legends-verse to cry "Fantastic Racism", and even the Rebels were practically a human force until RotJ.

Shudo had story flow down pat, but built a world based on premises that were severely discordant with the original concept. Effectively, Satoshi Tajari created a world that didn't go through the "Economic Miracle" of post-WWII (and arguably muted the Meiji Restoration and/or European Colonial Imperialism) while Shudo's world incorporated it, or at least the '91 crash. As such, the story of the Kanto Anime was utterly at odds with the Franchise, leading to Johto excising the foundations, meaning that there was nothing really to build on anymore.

There is also how he handled Misty initially.^note Her being shunted to the back post-Orange was not his fault, but, like the series itself, was probably exacerbated by his bad initial direction. It's not not so much that she is too "bratty" or similar, but that either her flaws did not complement Ash's or were not given equal billing. There were shades of Misty being a Know-Nothing Know-It-All to contrast with Ash's Book Dumb, but they weren't given much depth. It just seemed like Ash and Misty tossed around the Conflict Ball, instead of their personality traits allowing them to develop as foils.

On that note, I doubt that I would have defected from Pokeshipping to Amourshipping were it not for Iris. I'm thinking that the "Best Wishes" writers tried to bring back Kanto!Misty in spirit through Iris but ended up deconstructing Pokeshipping's Belligerent Sexual Tension at the expense of any character opportunities for Iris.^note Including opportunities for her to be an appropriate foil for a post-Sinnoh Ash. Granted, Shudo never intended for those two to be a couple anyway. Also, Serena needed to make a good argument to take Misty's spot, and did, but without Iris exposing the shaky foundations on which Pokeshipping stood, I don't think that I would have been open to Serena's "attack".^note And, for what it's worth, her "slow burn" was more effective at that point in time versus any obvious attack. She softened me up so much her first year that when she launched herself at Pumpkaboo, I was wanting Ash to show inordinate concern for Serena doing something that would be in his character.

Also, given Precita's testimony, even removing the Dub Personality Change, it sounds as though Misty is the Same Character, But Different, though, in this case, it's not so much a case of "slapping a new character onto Misty's shell" as "injecting portions of Ash's other female companions into her".

Ironically, Shudo intending on Ash being a Champion, yet having him look at Pokemon with fondness as a "childhood dream", leads me to a very strange conclusion if I remember his intended series climax correctly: namely, a Pokemon rebellion with Pikachu as one of its leaders:

The Champion!Ash of Shudo's timeline would have the same role in said revolution... as Alain did in the Team Flare Crisis.

In that scenario, Ash would be a "Champion" that effectively became ineffective upon Pikachu's betrayal. Given the amount of trust Ash puts in Pikachu, I see that as being as devastating as Lysandre revealing that Alain was nothing more than an Unwitting Pawn, if not more so.

And we thought that Mirror!Ash was the Take That! against Shudo's vision. Conversely, Alain ended up as more of a Shadow Archetype than perhaps Tomioka intended. Then again, given that the Team Flare Crisis was Refitted from the Black & White climax...

I agree on Pokemon becoming a Kid's show post-Shudo.^note XYZ notwithstanding But where Shudo was going makes me believe that his vision was "family-friendly" only insofar as "kids shouldn't watch it without parental supervision".

Edited by DonaldthePotholer on Dec 29th 2018 at 1:43:55 PM

I dunno, even XYZ leans heavily on the idealistic side of things compared to Kanto. Its attempts at darkness are superficial, otherwise it still runs utterly on Black-and-White Morality, trading any human qualities of games!Lysandre onto Alain (who can easily be hand waved as a pawn and thus turn good with no consequences on a Happy Ending) and abolishing AZ entirely. Even his arguable spiritual counterpart, the Florges that antagonises Goodra, goes through a similar approach, rather than being a What You Are in the Dark and suffering the emotional weight and consequences of that, some one note bad guy comes that enables the character to not feel bad (they even made Team Rocket extra evil in that episode to really ram it in).

Along with the main cast arguably being the least flawed of the shows' lot (Ash is almost never personally challenged, hence him being at his least emotive, and even Serena's confidence issues lean a bit too much as positive flaw) and having far less cases of them being taken out of their comfort zone which aren't negated by plot armour or something like Team Rocket interrupting, I could argue XY was in fact the most idealistic and "play it safe" series of the lot.

Truthfully I think Ash and Serena would be a toxic pairing, since Serena just sees and expects the positive side of Ash too much. She even admitted it to some level the first time she saw his flawed side, but like mentioned above things just turned out okay and she didn't have to deal with that level of depth. Done permanently something like that could end up a very warped and toxic Deconstruction of the Women Are Wiser trope where the show will enable Serena to go straight on his ass whenever he's not remotely being perfect or a Stepford Smiler (compared to even Ash and Misty where the show accepted both were hypocrites and it was in both of them to be flawed human beings).

Even Ash and Lillie feels like a more natural pairing since both can exist and deal with the other one having foibles and have made proactive attempts to balance the other (even if I'd argue their relationship is closer to a 'big brother/little sister' one).

Edited by Psi001 on Dec 30th 2018 at 2:46:18 PM

Serena would probably be really surprised if she saw earlier Ash.

Heh. Yeah.

It'd be funny for her and Misty to switch places: Especially for the former.

Serena would barely recognize Kanto Ash...then again, wasn't a lot of Kanto Ash's brattiness a direct result of Misty going off on him for both valid and not so valid reasons. If he didn't have someone constantly stomping on his ego, he'd probably screw up a little bit less.

He'd still screw up mind you, but he'd be less likely to do it because of someone constantly trying to show their superiority to him.

Kanto Ash tried to use Caterpie against Pidgeotto on the grounds of everything working out if you try hard enough, and between the Charmeleon/Charizard thing, Sabrina being OP, Team Rocket, and other stuff I don't think it's fair to blame all of it on Misty, especially once Togepi arrived and she became a Living Prop aside from a couple water Pokemon episodes.

Oh I know that.

Kanto Ash was really dumb. He did grow a hell of a lot though. The line between how much of the shit he took was his own fault and how much of it was just people being excessively harsh was a thin one, but he was very much a dumbass.

Though again, I've said previously (not in this exact conversation)how strange it is that he received so little education on the basics of training; he was just sent right away even though he had no clue, and with a Pokemon that was (at first) determined to disobey him at every opportunity.

But many of the things that happened to him were a result of his own incompetence. It's just that on occasion, he took flack for things unfairly because of the ridiculously harsh standards people had in those first few arc.

It does align more to Shudo's view of it being a Crapsack World. When Butch and Cassidy framed everyone they were sent to jail!

Edited by lalalei2001 on Dec 30th 2018 at 10:29:54 AM

That would happen in any version though wouldn't it?

According to Shudo 10-year-olds were legal adults and could marry, pay taxes, and go to jail, so who knows.

That was only in his Novelization.

Then again, some cultures in the real world mark you as an adult at ages younger than 18 (I think), so maybe he just took that to a new level. If you're allowed to travel around the world dealing with potentially dangerous wild creatures, then you'd have to be considered more of an adult than most.

Which means that Shudo has human societal dynamics down. The problem is that, In a World… where fantastic beasts have been an accepted fact in said society, merely having human societal dynamics down is necessary, but insufficient.

He probably felt that It Will Never Catch On... though if it didn't then why was he playing so long-term a game with his preemptive Deconstruction?

And, again, if I'm right about the late plot point notes, with Ash being a Champion, there being a Pokemon rebellion, and Ash "looking back on Pokemon fondly as a childhood activity", it puts Ash during that Pokemon rebellion in the same role as Alain during the Team Flare Crisis.

"Our Hero, Everybody!"

Lalalei: That brings it back to one of Srebak's original questions: What was up with that Charmeleon/Charizard thing? And you can't blame Sabrina or Team Rocket on Ash either.

Psi: I honestly don't know what you were responding to in your first 2 paragraphs. All I said about XY (other than Serena, which you covered in your latter 2 paragraphs,) was that Pokemon post-Shudo was a kid's show, as firewriter said, despite Tomioka's best efforts (read:The Team Flare Crisis).

Tomioka had the same problem as Shudo, but in a different direction: he wanted to make Pokemon an Action series, when it's High Concept is more evocative of an Adventure series. Then again, I believe that the current series, for all the improvements it has made, suffers from the same problem, just in yet another direction. It seems as though every one of this Anime's Directors attended the Literature equivalent of the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.^note Of course, if the purpose of the Anime is as a Gateway into the Franchise proper, i.e. the games, perhaps the misses are intentional, just like the Stormtroopers pursuing Leia and company in IV & V...

You do make an interesting point about Serena, however. It's been said before that one of the major differences between Misty & Charizard and Serena & Greninja is that of timing. Heck, one of the reasons why Iris-as-Kanto!Misty failed is that Unova!Ash was not Kanto!Ash.

And Serena vs Kanto!Ash? Wasn't the whole Snowbelle arc all about Deconstructing Kanto!Ash?

As for Misty seeing a latter day Ash... isn't that what just happened? And what happened a year ago? At least last year's appearance keep her old character in part by invoking Never Live It Down upon Ash.

But, although you may have a point that a Serena that constantly expects "the Ideal Ash" as a toxic one, even though she asked for effectively "the Genuine Ash", at least in the Dub,^note to which we could say "Be Careful What You Wish For...", I would contend that a relationship between two people who each "know" that the other is a hypocrite is also toxic. As opposed to Serena always expecting the best out of Ash, in this scenario, Misty would often expect the worst from him, so that when it happens, she can say "I told you so".

The question becomes, "Has making Misty the Same Character, But Different changed that?" with the overall question being "Who is the most willing to work with Ash on each other?"

Serena, at least, has the wisdom to understand that you should improve yourself before expecting improvement from others.

On that note, how does Ash's relationship with Lillie compare with that of May and/or Dawn? And what about Lana?

As I said before, each Ash is tailored to his series and who his female companion is. Serena wouldn't work with Kanto Ash, just like XY Ash with Kanto Misty would seem odd too. They even dumbed Ash down in BW specifically so Iris could berate him similar to Misty.

I actually like the AG/DP incarnations of Ash a lot because it was the "sweet spot" between Ash's older idiotic self or being super mature like in XY. In AG especially Ash was still rash and immature constantly bickering, and May played off that well where they could be both friends but argue every so often. I'm pretty sure May has the second most amount of bickering arguments with Ash after Misty, since he and Iris don't really argue, and he and Dawn had a few but it was mostly early into DP. May's personality being a bit more outgoing than some of the later girls before they became overly girly also helped.

Edited by precita on Dec 30th 2018 at 11:58:12 AM

I actually kinda wonder how Misty would respond to XY Ash as said, it feels like Misty was insecure in Kanto, so kinda revelled having someone to pontificate and feel smarter against. Ash in XY however had clearly matured and surpassed her, she would be the flawed immature one and I'm not sure she'd like that. It reminds me of that Family Guy where Peter inflates his IQ, and despite being a far more sane human being, Lois and Brian don't like it because they now feel like the stupid ones and make him dumb again just to preserve their egos.

Even in SM you can see Misty jump at the chance to take Ash down a peg and maybe revelling a bit too much in outsmarting him in their battle (it doesn't work out, because SM Ash is only dumb at face value, and everyone else by that point knows it).

Concerning previous females, Ash seemed to become increasingly less emotive with each series. I remember one argument contending that the problem with Iris and BW Ash was that Ash in that series didn't often respond to the cast in a unique way so Iris doing the same pompous crap as Misty didn't often get any sort of response or punchline, reducing it to essentially a variant of a catchphrase (and I don't think it was just down to BW Ash being more a 'dumb but laid back' type, they just didn't have as much chemistry). SM is the first time in a long while the show is really focusing on Ash's distinctive chemistries with other characters instead of mostly just the other way round in a one sided way.

This probably also plays into the male companions ending up Out of Focus, notice throughout these discussions the chemistries between them and Ash is seldom brought up (and no I don't think shipping excuses it). Brock seldom interacted with May or Dawn either, while Clemont wasn't known for interacting with Serena. SM is actually perhaps the one time Ash's interactions with the male cast tend to be more colourful (maybe even compared to Lillie) perhaps why they tend to be winning the limelight a bit more. Notice we've even had a few episodes revolved around just the boys with the girls Demoted to Extra, this has yet to happen the other way round (does Ash even have any sort of chemistry with Lana?).

A character, even a well developed one, is bound not to find a unique place in the story if nothing else key in the universe bounces off of them or acknowledges any distinctive role they play.

Edited by Psi001 on Dec 30th 2018 at 11:13:55 AM

Kasumi will tease Satoshi in XY. Just like Serena would when she is not embarrassed by her obvious crush. It’s already been done in SM. Honestly, the dynamic of rival Misty will be the same as how the rival archtype changes over time in the games. From jackass to meet your friendly rival.

In terms of Serena’s relationship with Ash being “toxic”, I don’t buy it. If the flashback is anything to go by, Kanto Ash is more or less a “rebel brat” stage that he quickly grew in and out of for the better. It’s not as if it would suddenly emerge in full regression. Even his depression stage in the Winding Woods is rather tamed compared to how he acted beforehand, such as accusing AJ of cheating or being meanness arrogance. Serena does know Ash’s less admirable traits and often corrects him on that like a mother. And XY Ash ain’t going to fight back like he would with Misty. Honestly, Kanto Ash is a mere but important blip in Ash’s career by this point.

In regards to Shūdo, I have a love-hate relationship with his ideas. I like some of the serious ideas and themes he has like parental abandonment and shrinking wildlife. But I find his overall story to be too depressing and grimdark for even an all age audience. Pokémon and humans work together. A Spartacus Rebellion with Pikachu as leader goes against what Satoshi Tajiri wanted. Not to mention that Shūdo has no faith in Ash judging by his novels.

Edited by Shadao on Dec 31st 2018 at 7:16:24 AM

Ash's early characterization is very obviously a product of Shudo's draft and how he wanted to show why being a Pokemon trainer was a bad thing.

Since the series shifted to kid oriented product placement, obviously that angle had to be dropped and Ash was shifted more to a standard heroic kid hero.

I really think Shudo wanted the series to be something it wasn't. The entire basis of the series is catching Pokemon and raising them, why he thought showing the main draw of the series was a bad thing I'll never know.

. Because Shūdo was the head writer for Pocket Monsters, long before Pokémon became an international hit. Nobody expected it to reach the US and nobody expected it to be an even bigger hit there. What Shūdo thought he was doing was creating a full OVA TV series. No more, no less. He did not expect new life to be given to this small brand.

The thing that gets me is that had he had his way, the show could of ended but the games could of went on to be a sensation - pretty much the state of affairs in the west, as most people outside Japan don't care about the anime any more - and they could of tugged at the nostalgia strings with reboots and new series every so often, with or without Ash, without even needing to change the more mainstream, happy-go-lucky format the show has now.

The difference would be, since it went away a while and people remember it fondly when they were kids and didn't have the years of it running nonstop to make them numb to it, more people would watch it regardless of its quality all over the world.

This is going to be an all CG movie, apparently.

Edited by Hashil on Dec 31st 2018 at 9:08:47 AM

Ahh, that explains it. He simply didn't anticipate it blowing up like it did and it was out of his hands after the execs decided to milk it for all of it's worth. The price of popularity I suppose.

Its pretty impressive looking CG at that.

Better then most Anime CG tends to be, at any rate.

I wonder how Ash will look in CG. Hopefully it has all new characters though and isn't just a remake of the first movie in 3D. I doubt Misty/Brock will be in it since it follows the AU path of the previous movies anyway.

I'm just wondering who's gonna voice Mewtwo in the eventual English dub.

Are they gonna bring back Philip Bartlett or Dan Green to reprise the role? Or are they just gonna hire somebody new? I'm fairly certain that the guy who voiced Mewtwo back in Smash 4 and Ultimate is reprising his role for the Japanese version of this film.

I've been hearing people say that Mewtwo is once again being voiced by Masachika Ichimura (Keiji Fujiwara was Mewtwo in the recent Super Smash Bros. games).

Do you think that we'll be seeing anyone from the first 2 movies in this one?

It's set in the I Choose You continuity? That sucks. I was hoping for a simple remake of the original with some added stuff.

It's going to be weird not having the 4kids soundtrack in the dub.

Edited by Pichu-kun on Jan 2nd 2019 at 2:30:42 AM