During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes I would like to see a former CM sandbox. We could organize it along:
- Reveal of redeeming qualities
- Reveal of moral agency
- Outheinoused by later villains or in hindsight
- Crimes overexxagerated by effortposter
@Kazuya, is that version of Gihren the one from Zeonquest? He would easily qualify. I myself have a possible Gihren's Greed candiate in the game itself. Suprisingly, it's not Gihren.
Also some sad news that has reached me.
It has come to my attention that a CM creator has died some time ago and no one reported it.
From my discord channel, I have received news the Hearts of Iron IV modder Kaiser 1871 has died in a car accident last year, and this is why the Hearts of Iron IV mod Red World has not been updated for a long time. Through it seems that fans are now taking steps to resurrect the project.
Kaiser 1871 arguably started the trend of insanely evil Hearts of Iron alternate history setting Mod villains we're seeing with the various Nazi and super-fascist figures in mods such as The New Order Last Days Of Europe and Godspeed with his rather sinister portrayal of Theresa May in Red World(as well as his portrayal of the Italian neo-Fascist Mussolini acolytes, whom I don't think have enough character to be upvoted), whom we upvoted. I'm saying this because Red World is the first mod that went deep into crafting a narrative rather than being focused on gameplay(even through the developer of The New Order Last Days Of Europe always had an idea for such a mod in his head), and as such Brasier precedes Pelley, Himmler, Heydrich, Schoner, Dirglewagner, and Navarro(no entry yet but they are on my discussion list when TNO comes out) as well as various nasty figures from Equestria at War(which I have yet to go into, even through some of the nasty figures are in released content) in the mod development chronology.
Rest in peace my man.
Edited by xie323 on Mar 23rd 2020 at 12:02:42 PM
@ Kylo, I've seen The Nice Guys and I think I know who you're talking about... don't feel he crosses baseline, nasty as he is.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That's terrible, I'm so sorry to hear that xie and I'll restate my condolences to Scraggle I've PM'd him as well.
Edited by 43110 on Mar 23rd 2020 at 2:38:51 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ravok, mind adding that to the Drafts? Or do you just wanna get it whenever you do your batch?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Draftsman of Doom
RIP Kaiser.
Quick question: for Japanese films with subtitles, do we put family names for characters first? I have an effortpost to write and I want to make sure it follows the proper procedure.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 23rd 2020 at 2:53:13 PM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm not even sure we're consistent there.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
If there's an English format to go alongside it we generally follow that but it's not something anyone pulls theire hair out over.
Ultimate Moral Compass
@Kylo: Yeah personally, I feel nobody really breaches the heinous standard in The Nice Guys. Great movie though.
Also RIP Kaiser.
"No running in the halls!"
Foreign Troper
So, I saw that nobody reserved Season 3 of Black Lightning (2018). Might as well go ahead and do it, since nobody really counts.
Agent Odell definitely crossed the Moral Event Horizon and into Hate Sink territory, but the thing is that he, in his own twisted way, wants to protect his country. He is basically a male Amanda Waller, only even MORE fucked up.
His two Co-Dragons Commander Williams and Major Grey fall into the same category. Utterly reprehensive, but not evil for the sake of it.
Tobias still doesn't qualify due to the same reasons as before.
Lady Eve and Lala love their city.
Colonel Yuri Mosin has way too less screentime.
Gravedigger is an Affably Evil Visionary Villain who gives all of his foes a funeral, so yeah, obvious no.
And Dr Jace.....in the end, she didn't really do enough too. Also, I think it is more or less shown that she is a genuine clinical case of a sociopath. The way she tried to 'bond' with Lynn certainly suggested that this is the case.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
At Preacher (2016) I think it's odd having Marie with an entry longer than God's and a lot of it can be cut back:
- Preacher (2016): Marie L'Angelle bargained with Satan himself to make herself immortal by consuming the souls of others, collecting on those who do not pay for her voodoo services to do so. When her daughter Christina eloped with John Custer, Marie ordered her stomach cut open and for John's death, before forcing Jesse, her grandson to suffer under her over the years. When Jesse returns seeking Marie's help to bring his Love Interest, Tulip O'Hare back to life, Marie forces him into a blood contract wherein she holds Tulip's soul as leverage and later takes Jesse's soul to force him to follow her orders.
Austin also asked me to trim the Rose the hat entry on his fanfic so here's that:
- The Resurrection of Rose: Rose the Hat, upon being resurrected by her followers in the "True Knots", kills their current leader and those who defy her before forcing them back into her service. Draining children to death for their steam, Rose consumes it to remain undying and drives her own followers to insanity, with dozens killing each other horrifically and the sole survivor left traumatized. Bargaining with the Overlook Hotel for vengeance, Rose sends her maddened followers to Arba's town, slaughtering any in their path, and has the Hotel force Arba to kill her own mother. Merging with the Hotel, Rose attempts to kill Arba and her friends and when beaten, uses a black hole to attempt to destroy the multiverse out of spite.
Currents:
- Preacher (2016): Marie L'Angelle is the head of the Angelville plantation, as well as Jesse Custer's grandmother and a major source of pain in his life. Years ago, Marie made a Deal with the Devil himself to make herself virtually immortal by consuming the souls of others, stealing them from clients who don't pay their debts for her voodoo services. After her daughter, Christina, eloped with John Custer, Marie ordered Christina's stomach cut open when she tried to hide a photo of Jesse from her. After ordering the death of John Custer, she forcefully took Jesse under her wing, physically and emotionally abusing him while trying to keep him under her thumb and forcing him to participate in her twisted family business. Many years after leaving that life behind, Jesse returns to Angelville to have Marie bring Tulip O'Hare Back from the Dead, but it comes at the price of a blood contract. With her holding Tulip's life as leverage and threatening to consume her soul out of a sense of entitlement, Jesse is forced into Marie's service and subject to the same abuse once again until he can get his soul back from the Grail. Motivated solely by her desire to live forever and someone who sees people, even her own family, as little more than tools that she can dispose of once she has no further use for them, Marie L'Angelle is a cruel, selfish, vengeful, and manipulative human being that sticks out like a sore thumb in a setting that runs on Black and Gray Morality.
- The Resurrection of Rose: Rose the Hat is the leader of the True Knots who abandons her previous redeeming qualities for the sake of getting revenge on Abra for her death. Upon being revived by the surviving True Knots, Rose kills their leader and forces the others to work for her, killing 4 of them when they attempt to defy her. Taking control of Aldrich's Human Trafficking operation, she creates machines that drain children of their steam, causing them agonizing pain and slowly killing them, while keeping the supply of steam to herself, starving the majority of her fellow True Knots. Rose would later subject 30 of her True Knots to an experimentation of the Orb of Madness, which drives them mad and forces them to kill each other in horrifying ways, leaving the survivor completely traumatized at what she did. After reviving her original henchmen for the sole purpose of them being useful to her in her plans, Rose makes a deal with the Overlook Hotel to help her in her revenge scheme, sacrificing Lester to it when it demands to be fed. Rose would later send the Orb-Infested True Knots to attack Abra's Town, slaughtering many innocent people, including children, while having the Hotel force Abra to kill her own mother. When Crow Daddy, Andi, and Meg decide to help Abra take Rose down, Rose tortures Andi and mortally wounds Crow Daddy after taking advantage of his love for her before proceeding to merge with the Overlook Hotel to become the most powerful Shiner in existence. After learning of the multiverse, where Abra manages to defeat her in every other world, Rose attempts to destroy every universe with a black hole out of spite.
Agreed about season 3 of Black Lightning.
Also a belated agreement with season 3 of Castlevania.
Condolences, Scraggle.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Johnny Klug, Ludo and Eugene.
I have a lot of free time. So I can read more Marvel novels, but the 2 with the most likely keepers (A Captain America book where Red Skull is sickly and dying and a Wolverine novel where secret agents want to destroy the mutant race), but those books deal with subject matters that may be considered kinda creepy and a little too real at the moment (viruses). Should I go ahead and read them and propose them or would people here prefer I hold off on them?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
43: Drafts please.
Overlord: I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I'm fine with that Marvel stuff now.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
We got four Ramsay Snow versions too.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Whoops, that was a brain fart.
Anyway, I'm in support of a Former Complete Monsters page.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, right, that. Yeah, me too.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
RIP Kaiser.
I suppose a Former Complete Monsters page wouldn't hurt; I've considered making something like that myself, but I figured it would be too cumbersome. If possible, I'd like to have the entries of those characters before they were cut on the page as well.
@Overlord: Personally, it wouldn't bother me, but I think you should hold off on those proposals for now.
Edited by falcontalons on Mar 23rd 2020 at 12:41:41 PM
Well I have not read the books yet, but if the majority of people here would rather I wait till later on proposing them, I will bow to the majority before I start reading them in-depth. I thought I would ask before I started reading them, rather than just reading them and proposing without checking in here first.
Edited by Overlord on Mar 23rd 2020 at 12:54:02 PM
Foreign Troper
I don't see the point.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Marie L'Angelle bargained with Satan himself to make herself immortal by consuming the souls of others, collecting on those who do not pay for her voodoo services to do so. When her daughter Christina eloped with John Custer, Marie ordered her stomach cut open and for John's death, before forcing Jesse, her grandson, to suffer under her over the years. When Jesse returns seeking Marie's help to bring his Love Interest, Tulip O'Hare, back to life, Marie forces him into a blood contract wherein she holds Tulip's soul as leverage and later takes Jesse's soul to force him to follow her orders.
- Rose the Hat, upon being resurrected by her followers in the "True Knots", kills their current leader and those who defy her before forcing them back into her service. Draining children to death for their steam, Rose consumes it to remain undying and drives her own followers to insanity, with dozens killing each other horrifically and the sole survivor left traumatized. Bargaining with the Overlook Hotel for vengeance, Rose sends her maddened followers to Abra's town, slaughtering any in their path, and has the Hotel force Abra to kill her own mother. Merging with the Hotel, Rose attempts to kill Abra and her friends, and when beaten, spitefully uses a black hole to attempt to destroy the multiverse.
Goku Black
It's fine overlord If you want to ep those . I don't mind.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"The Juice is Loose."
Overlord: I wouldn't mind. Go ahead if you want to.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Draftsman of Doom
Screw it. I'm not bothering with Japanese conventions.
What is the work:
X-Cross is a 2007 Japanese Horror Flick.
Shiyori Mizuno and Aiko Hiuke's plans to stay at the Ashikari Village resort are sabotaged by the depraved cult which calls the village home, as well as a psychopath armed with shears. As the women try to escape, they have no idea who to trust. However, it turns out that the cult is led by a figure from Shiori's recent past, namely, her ex, Keiichi Asamiya.
Who is Keiichi Asamiya, and what has he done?
Keiichi Asamiya leads the Ashikari vilage cult perpetuating the ritual of human sacrifice by cutting off women's legs, as well as using their corpses as scarecrows.
Asamiya had previously lured Shizuka Mononobe, the sister of Akira Mononobe, to the village as a sacrifice, and is shown to have done the same to a number of other women.
After a falling out due to Asamiya's infidelity, Asamiya had convinced Aiko to take Shiyori to Ashikari Village, claiming he wants a fresh start with Shiyori when in fact, his plans are far less benevolent.
The ritual involves taking the woman out of her room, to a dedicated courtyard, where the woman's leg is cut off. Subsequently, the woman is kept in a secret shrine in the mountains, and her corpse is put on display once she dies.
Asamiya picks up Shiyori, seemingly to take her back to the city, but Shiyori realizes too late that Asamiya has taken her back to Ashikari.
At the ritual, Asamiya reveals himself as the cult leader, and reveals that his affection for her is nothing more than a possessive desire. When Asamiya places his mouth near Shiyori's feet, she kicks him in the face, prompting him to grab an axe and attempt to cut off her leg. However, before he can complete the ritual, Aiko intervenes, taking pictures on her phone and threatening to expose the cult if they don't let Shiyori go.
Before the women can leave, Reika, the ex girlfriend of a man Aiko seduced, and who has made repeated attempts on Aiko's life, tries to kill Aiko. In the fray, Asamiya attempts to keep his hold on Shiyori. When Mononobe comes to the rescue, Asamiya tries to drag Shiyori out of the moving car, and gets a foot to the face for his trouble, knocked onto the pavement, his fate ambiguous.
Heinousness?
The cult may have been practising its grotesque rituals of dismemberment and corpse display since before Asamiya was born, but he perpetuates the rituals, and despite having spent time outside the village, he keeps the tradition alive.
In contrast, Reika only claims to have killed her ex offscreen, repeatedly attempts to murder Aiko, and kills an unknown number of cult members to get to Aiko.
Mitigating Factors?
Asamiya had a life outside of Ashikari, but chose to return, take part in the rituals, and lure women to gruesome fates.
His "love" for Shiyori comes off as nothing more than a Possessive Desire.
He doesn't show any concern whatsoever for his cultists when Reika cuts some of them down.
Verdict:
A solid contender.Side note. I still cannot make a Wiki Word request for X-Cross on an iPhone. Fuck my life...
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 7th 2020 at 3:40:56 PM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
I don't see why it couldn't have a keeper. I mean if that type of work has a MB, I don't see why it can't have a CM.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread