During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@Bullman Thanks. It's good to be back. 
Anyone want to collab on the 1970s series with me?
Might be safe to say that we're not getting another movie. Here's the tree (made an edit to Madison's entry too):
- Charlie's Angels trilogy:
- Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle: Madison Lee is a former Angel who became treacherous and turned rogue because rather than take orders from Charles "Charlie" Townsend and work with her team, she wanted all the glory for herself. Teaming up with turncoat US Marshal Ray Carter, Madison plots with him to steal the two rings needed to access the HALO list which contains the names of everyone in the Federal Witness Protection Program, and arranges to meet with four different crime families to sell it off to the highest bidder. To obtain the ring that Carter doesn't have, Madison murders the agent who possesses it along with several others. She has volatile mob boss Seamus O'Grady, who has a personal history with Angel Dylan Sanders, released from prison so his gang can not only work for her, but target and murder another witness and then try to kill a second one, teenager Max Petroni. Once Carter arranges for the gangs to meet and gives Madison the rings back, she shoots him dead when he calls her "partner". She shoots and nearly kills Dylan and fellow Angels Natalie Cook and Alex Munday and then near the climax, she blows up the roof they're on and then spitefully tries to escape by throwing a grenade into a crowd of people at a Hollywood premiere.
- Charlie's Angels (2019): John Bosley is Charlie's closest friend and collaborator to the Angels who bitterly becomes an arms dealer after being forced to retire instead of take over the agency. He seeks to possess the energy saving source Calisto so it can be used as a biological weapon that can induce fatal seizures so he can sell it for his own profit. He contacts terrorists and crime syndicates as potential buyers. Bosley hires the cold-blooded assassin Hodak to murder whistleblower and Future Angel Elena Houghlin and ends up killing Edgar "Bosley" Dessange instead. He then has Elena's boss Peter Flemming killed for not knowing how to work Calisto and attempts to kill Angels Sabina Wilson and Jane Kano by blowing up the agency. He also nearly kills Former Angel Rebekah "Boz" by shooting her. Bosley has Hodak threaten both Elena and Alexander Brock for access to Calisto and also threatens Elena's friend and co-worker Langston when she refuses at first. He then attempts to activate Calisto so he can leave Elena and Langston to die.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 4th 2019 at 8:49:03 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Eddie and Bosley
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Eddie Low
John Bosley
To Master N: Regarding Papa/VIRM. It honestly should say VIRM first. Because the real name of the entity is VIRM and is actually two of Papa's council, Papa himself and his assistent.
Hive Minds, nuff said. I always prefer to talk about VIRM as, well, VIRM.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Because "Papa" and his assistent are merely a act.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Dec 2nd 2019 at 10:26:24 AM
Watch me destroying my country
I don’t see why it matters, leading face of the Hive Mind and all.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I know what they are, they’re still names the VIRM uses.
Edited by 43110 on Dec 2nd 2019 at 11:01:50 AM
New numbers:
Karl Urban kills 5 as Blackhat in Priest (2011).
Tilda Swinton kills 40 as the White Witch in The Chronicles of Narnia; 37 in The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe and 3 in The Voyage of the Dawn Trader.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
to Eddie Low and John Bosley
I also from 43110’s write-up over the others
Edited by G-Editor on Dec 2nd 2019 at 5:14:38 AM
I guess I'll remove Fanscription from my To-Do List since that well has been tapped.
I'm also going to add the first two Mission: Impossible movies there too since I think they need a second look. EDIT: I thought Phelps and Ambrose might actually not have the redeeming qualities I thought they did, but it's probably heinousness that holds them back now.
My reaction when I re-read my EP for Bosley (content-wise): "What kind of babbling bullshit is this?" Haha.
Should I put Bosley first in the tree since he was introduced first? I think since he wasn't a villain until the new Charlie's Angels that he should probably go after Madison. Guess I answered my own question.
No one counts in Descendants 3 or the movie that shall not be named (which was actually good though) due to varying reasons of heinousness and/or redeeming qualities. Facilier appears in the former, but he seems to love his daughter Celia and doesn't do anything new either.
EDIT: I have been gone quite a while and want to give it a rest tonight before I get too overexcited. Goodnight everybody!
EDIT ON 12/16 FOR THE PURPOSE OF SEARCH ENGINE: Come to think of it, as awful (and distinct to each other) as Jim Phelps and Sean Ambrose each are, their crimes are drops in a bucket compared to both Davian and Lane's much more substantial rap sheets.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 16th 2019 at 8:58:32 AM
I had checked both MI films. Nobody keeps.
Gentle Laborer
"it seems a couple of tropers are fervently opposed to Torres for no discernable reason"
No, Ano, we do have our reasons, and we explained them well. My downvote stays.
Showtime!
Don’t do the “People won’t listen to reason and that’s why they’re saying no to me!” thing. I have no tolerance for it:
As much as I dislike that attitude, I have been researching it myself. I affirm a yes vote to Torres here.
The Draftsman of Doom
I don't remember how I voted on Torres, count me as abstaining due to lack of familiarity.
I just watched a surprisingly good low budget thriller, and I have created a page for it. Oh yeah, the effortpost.
What is the work?
Brooklyn Tide is a 2016 Conspiracy Thriller.
Special Agent Jonathan Corbin, along with Agent Samantha Vera, is sent to investigate the death of his supervisor, Agent Francesco, as well as the disappearance of a supposed cyber-weapon which is later stated to have the capacity to cause damage to nuclear reactors. The mastermind turns out to be someone from Corbin's past, backed by the Gulf Cartel.
Who is Clay, and what has he done?
Clay, the former partner of Special Agent Jonathan Corbin, desires revenge for the latter putting him in prison. To this end, Clay manipulates Agent Samantha Vera into being his mole, has Corbin's supervisor, Francesco, attacked, and has a supposed cyber-weapon in Francesco's possession stolen. Intending to cause a nuclear meltdown using the device, Clay has Vera inject Corbin with potassium cyanide while she takes the device on his behalf. When Corbin confronts Vera, Clay kills her, before eventually trying to have Zero shoot Corbin.
Heinousness?
While he may not succeed, he does confirm that he intends to kill millions of people as a result of his actions. The fact that Clay acquired the device may have been a setup on Francesco's part, but Clay planned to use the device of his own volition. Francesco may have threatened the reactor indirectly through his actions, but he never intended for Clay to succeed, which was why he is implied to have made it so that the device would not fulfill its intended purpose.Nobody from the cartels appear in the film.
Mitigating Factors?
Clay's anger with the FBI is deconstructed verbally by Corbin. He chose to take dirty money, and likewise, Corbin felt he had a responsibility not to overlook that action. Furthermore, when Clay complains that he risked his life for the FBI, Corbin counters that such is part of the job. Otherwise, Clay gives a damn about nobody but himself.
Verdict?
Even if he fails to accomplish his goal of mass murder for petty reasons, only because it is implied the device he wanted was a decoy, the fact that he made the attempt convinces me that at the very least, he is worthy of discussion.
Feels good, don't it?
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Sure there.
Ok, I did check it out again and discussed with Tyk...in the end? I say keep to Ambrosio. While he was manipulated, ambrosio's complexity is offset by his arrogance, and his plunging headlong into corruption and depravity despite getting chance after chance to turn back.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
All right, I'm finished with The Monk.
-exhales-
See, this is my problem with Ambrosio. The guy starts out as a seemingly decent man. And when he's confronted by Matilda, a woman who has feelings for him (I won't go into detail), he immediately rejects her and tries to banish her. Ambrosio gets bitten by a snake just as she's about to leave (again, won't go into detail) and she sucks out the poison to save him, mortally poisoning herself. Believing she's about to die, she begs Ambrosio to have sex with her. He does.
For those wondering, yes. Matilda clearly manipulated him (again, won't go into specifics), and I'm not okay with that whatsoever. But after Ambrosio has sex with her, he blames her. I'm not okay with this either. No one put a sword to Ambrosio's throat. No one forced him to have sex. He did that all on his own.
Okay, this scenario above? Repeat it several times, and make his crimes worse everytime. Ambrosio is tempted to do something bad. He knows he shouldn't do it. He's smart enough not to do it. But then he says, "Eh, fuck it." And then he does it. Then he feels disgusted about it and blames everyone else for what he did. Then he does it again anyway and tries to seek forgiveness for the sole purpose of just saving his own ass.
Now yes, as I said, Ambrosio does feel disgusted after he does some of these awful things. But he doesn't feel regret. He just feels like he's corrupted his soul and now he's gonna end up going to Hell. And by the end of the story, he's done so much shit that any redeeming qualities he had he got rid of.
I'm not saying Satan didn't have a hand in manipulating Ambrosio, because he did. But all Satan did was open the door. Ambrosio walked through it when all he had to do was slam it shut or avoid it altogether.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Clay and keep Ambrosio.
Edited by Bullman on Dec 2nd 2019 at 10:11:45 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
"No, Ano, we do have our reasons, and we explained them well."
And I have countered your explanations with further evidence as to why neither Torres' rhetoric of WIE and Insanity Defense hold up.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Keep Ambrosio and after my own research yes to Torres but Ano, watch this damn attitude the next time you want to have a debate, I'm serious.
The Draftsman of Doom
Keep Ambrosio.
Feels good, don't it?
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Keep Ambrosio. Sounds like Ellen from way back- yeah, the demon manipulated, or sought to manipulate, her to some extent, but all he did was open the door; she went through it herself, and gladly. Same thing with Ambrosio- unrepentant Villain Protagonist who got push from demonic Evil Mentor but went the full mile by themselves. So again, Ambrosio.
Also, Bosley. Original two films were better, though.
Clay.
So, the Alain rewrite/expansion is up. Glad that is taken care of. 43, if you want to put up your rewrites for Ragyo Kiryuin and Papa/Vice Chairman/VIRM now on the drafts page, you have my blessing. Speaking of which, I echo 43 in what they said earlier, in that the CM entries on YMMV.The Chathrand Voyages detailed in this post definitely look like they were written in an earlier time, with a currently-outdated writing style that as of now would never fly. I will PM 43 about them and see what can be done, but I hope to return with entries that look more like the polished, neat, and professional entries we have now.
Finally, for Torres, but yes, please calm down. You made good points, but please do not harp on them- it makes people more likely to downvote in spite. Trust me, I have seen it happen before. And when people say they are going to look at something for themselves, do not argue and do not pressure them into hurrying up- again, speaking from experience. Hate to be cliche here, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar (well, metaphorically- literally it is the exact opposite, at least where fruit flies are concerned).
Edited by MasterN on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:07:28 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Wild Child
Keep Ambrosio.
Ragyo rewrite; I actually did have a few issues with the original write-up, but didn't feel it was worth bringing up.
Edited by Clown-Face on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:03:12 AM
Why so serious?
The Draftsman of Doom
Clay and Ambrosio
TL;DR, Torres' claim of salvation conceals a desire for massacre, and the two years at the bottom of the sea end up serving as little more than a motivation speech to reel his crew in and keep on persevering during the final fight, telling them that they have abandoned all of their fears at the bottom of the abyss.
Additionally, Torres tells his crew during the fight that all they have to do is simple: obey his orders and snuff out the target, resonating with SACS' crazy mantra of "submitting to the orders of their superior."
Edited by AnoBakaDesu on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:41:56 AM
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain