During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Okay. Been away all day, let's see what I've missed... ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Morgan Fear, Tyler Fier and Johnny Nadler; ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Darren Jones and Ed Wuncler I. Sticking with "cut" for Majd.
Yeah, I'm good there, and have a potential example now...
What's the work?
Colossus and the Headhunters is a film in the Maciste series, once aired on Mystery Science Theater 3000, starring our bulky hero who in words of the film's page? "helps lead a party of survivors from his tribe's homeland, which is destroyed in a volcanic eruption. The survivors float to an island where they're embroiled in a fight between two warring nations, one of which is dubbed the Headhunters."
And our villain? The wicked, bad, no good Kermes.
Who is Kermes?
An ambitious, wicked man who is the leader of the headhunters, or shadow master anyways, after betraying the people of the goodhearted Queen Amoa of the Urians, who falls in love with Maciste...manipulatign the Headhunters into attacking through controlling their leader Goona, Kermes takes the chance to overthrow Amoa's father, imprisoning and torturing him as he leads his forces on bloody raids that see tons of people killed and their heads taken.
Kermes leads his forces to take over the city, plotting to force Amoa to marry him so he can ascend to the greatest position of all, the position men have fought, suffered and died for, the ultimate pinnacle an ambitious monster like Kermes can aspire to: Her adviser. (Okay, he plans to rule through her, but the flat way he delivers it is hysterical). Kermes leads his men in a bloody battle to take over, taking Amoa hostage and the people, declaring they're going to obey from now on. One luckless sucker asks what if the people don't obey and Kermes, deciding to make an example of him, declares they will "suffer the same fate as you!" and has him headhunt'd on the spot as he begs for mercy. Maciste is able to resist, being Maciste, as Kermes gets worse and worse, with the torture and murder and unleashing the savage headhunters on the populace....culminating in a battle between Maciste and his rival, as Amoa cheers him on, while Kermes tries to cheat, but Maciste fights his way out of the trap and plunges a blade through the evil usurper's heart, saving the day as the tribe of headhunters is destroyed.
Mitigating Qualities?
Zilch. Kermes is a greedy prcik who slaughters hundreds, kills people for no reason, tortures the king, tries to forcibly marry his daughter and is a general dick with plenty seen...seriously, unleashing headhunters on your own people is low.
Conclusion?
By the numbers keep, but keep.
Zachariah, his lifelong servant Mooreland, his cousin turned adopted sister and wannabe lover Lucy, references to others, his planned murders of Victoria (Savannah accidentally did it for him) and Hattie (Victoria accidentally did it for him) and the big honeymoon surprise that he had planned all long for Savannah.
Gentle Laborer
Yes to Kermes.
"The Juice is Loose."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
And how many do most villains in the series have?
Kermes. Worth putting all the Maciste films together, or too unrelated?
Edited by ACW on Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:44:57 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Showtime!
to Tyler, Johnny, and Kermes
Goku Black
Kermit
Tyler, Johnny, and Kermes.
The wifi here sucks
Wild Child
Kermes.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to Tyler, Johnny, and Kermes.
That said, got another candidate... Yet another one from Franco-Belgian comics, and one of my favorites. I really wasn't sure if I could find a keeper since there's not much focus on the villains (in some books, there aren't villains at all). But looks like I've found a keeper.
What's the work?
"Yoko Tsuno (1970-) is a French-Belgian comic book series by Roger Leloup. The title character is a young Japanese woman of multiple talents, initially trained as an electrician but also skilled in airplane piloting, martial arts (karate, aikido, kyudo), computer programming, etc. She's fluent in many foreign languages: English (required learning in technology fields), French (she's living there...), German (...or close by), Cantonese (her grandmother was from there) and more (most, through sleep learning improved by future technologies). Her adventures usually involve scientific or technological elements, and regularly go into outright Science Fiction, with the recurring presence of a humanoid alien race, the Vineans.
Her sidekicks are two Westerners, Vic Video and Pol Pitron, and she is the adoptive mother of a Chinese girl, Morning Dew.
[...]
The books are being translated in English by Cinebook. The first translations were done out of order (e.g. beginning with On the Edge of Life, which was the seventh book in the series), but the more recent ones (starting with The Curious Trio) follow the original order."
Our candidate is a villain of the first book The Curious Trio, the Big Bad of the third book Vulcan's Forge and the posthumous Greater-Scope Villain of the twenty-seventh book, Khany's Secret.
Who is Karpan? What has he done?
Karpan is a member of a Vinean (an humanoid alien species from the series) colony on Earth.
The Curious Trio
Karpan is introduced rudely interrupting Khany (another Vinean on Earth), who has Yoko, Vic and Pol in her custody, telling her that he's going to ask them questions despite not having the authority to do so. Khany promptly reminds him of that, leading to Karpan getting angry, accusing Khany of having extorted the center (a giant computer, a coordinator for the colony) to have such authority, and threatening to crush her. Khany promptly slaps him, leading him to slap her back. When Yoko and Pol defends Khany, Karpan even tries to kill Yoko, (she's saved by Khany) damaging a Vinean rocket in the process. He's promptly berated for that, with Khany stating that he will answer for that in front of the center.
That doesn't stop him, however.
In the "Calibreur", he sent two of his men follow Yoko's clique (whose on board of a Vinean rocket), who promptly tries to kill Yoko, Vic, Pol, Khany and Poky before they reach the center. They fail and die in the process. Karpan promptly frame Yoko, Vic and Pol for his men's death, even though it was actually in self-defense.
Karpan is later knocked out by Yoko.
After the center's destruction thanks to Yoko, (the computer was the Big Bad) Karpan wakes up and tries to flee. When Yoko interrupts him, Karpan tries to kill her again. However, a falling giant sphere almost kills him and Yoko saves him. He's surprisingly grateful and is redeemed, leading Khany to be lenient towards him.
All of those redeeming qualities would vanish in his next appearance...
Vulcan's Forge
The Vinean colony (with Karpan becoming the head of its security services), until then living underground, decided to live on the surface of the Earth. For this purpose, they collected lava from Mount Pelée to create an artificial volcanic island in the Caribbean Sea. However, as the drilling rig has destroyed one of the lava conveyor tubes, Yoko is tasked with leading a commando to close the controlled valve : if it isn't, it would lead to a tidal wave striking Martinique. The resulting earthquake would awaken the Mount Pelée, leading to an eruption and a body count no different from 1902. Something Karpan is fully aware of : hence why, despite having the power to stop this, he won't, as wiping out Martinique will allow him to create a base of operations there, before proceeding with taking over the world, no matter the thousands of human lives lost in the process. Oh, and if humanity replies with nuclear bombs? According to Khany Karpan would retaliate with underground thermic explosions, wiping countries off the map.
When Yoko, Vic, Pol, Khany, Poky and their friends and allies tries to stop them, Karpan sent his men to prevent them from preventing the disaster from happening.
Later Karpan cut off the air from a vast chamber and vented toxic gas to kill Yoko and her friends, even if it means killing his own workers who are stationed in the same room. It's one of his men that saved Yoko by ramming their vehicle into the control center, causing Karpan to fall into the magma below.
Yoko promptly remarks that Karpan wanted to Take Over the World à feu et à sang (Literally : with fire and blood ; Figuratively : with fire and the sword), and that his resting place had the same colors.
Khany's Secret
Despite his death, Karpan is the driving force behind the book's events. Turns out that before his death, Karpan had turned a half-human half-Vinean girl into a Tyke Bomb with a pre-programmed mission : she would go to Mars and trigger a program to remove all viruses and bacteria from Earth. Sounds nice, huh?
Problem is, bacteria is vital for life on Earth. In short, Karpan planned to commit omnicide so that Vineans could take over Earth with no problems.
Fortunately (and despite Karpan's Dragon, Gorka's efforts), Tevy, the Tyke Bomb pulls a Heel–Face Turn and Karpan's plan is stopped for good.
Heinousness?
For a character who appeared in only two books and was the Greater-Scope Villain of another, Karpan manages to stand out. Would Hurt a Child, Would Hit a Girl, Fantastic Racism and Final Solution, Omnicidal Maniac, Bad Boss. Yoko's reaction when learning of Karpan's involvement in the third and the twenty-seventh book is essentially : "This Is Gonna Suck". The guy is hated even amongst Vineans because of his power-hungry nature. No humor with him. Not even Faux Affably Evil. The guy is taken 100% seriously.
Redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
No Freudian Excuse. As for redeeming qualities, in the first book, he showed signs of reformation in the first book and was grateful to Yoko for saving him.
That was in the first book. In the third, he throws them all out the window. He doesn't give a damn about Earthlings, but he is no better with Vineans (and his own men), attempting to kill Khany, and even his own men if it meant killing Yoko. There's nothing left but a power-hungry sociopath.
Verdict?
Up to you guys.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Aug 3rd 2019 at 10:47:08 AM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Yes to Karpan.
Regarding Maciste...maybe? I think it works.
- Grimm Universe:
- Gretel: The witch Tituba is the origin of the monstrous witches, having been a survivor of salem who schemed of world domination. Tituba had her witches spread over the world, devouring the hearts of butchered children to increase their powers. When she captured Gretel, Tituba starved her and fed her the heart of her own brother, plotting on her to escape while she sent her lover Samuel to become Gretel's mentor. Tituba planned on Gretel killing countless witches and devouring their hearts for power in hopes she would one day take Gretels own heart. Tituba happily murders her own subordinates, even killing Samuel himself when his usefulness is over and he has come to truly love Gretel as a daughter, intending on filling Gretel with despair before eating her heart and obtaining ultimate power.
- Hellchild:
- Tor is a brutal pimp who trafficks women to become prostitutes, refusing to let them leave his service under pain of death. When he learns one of his girls was murdered, Tor hunts down two of the men involves and brutally tortures them, murdering them to find out who was trying to take his property. Discovering one of his girls is fleeing the life with her lover Jake, Tor has Jake's parents killed as a message, before revealing oen of his nastiest activities: Tor also finds innocents to give to a supernatural auction, where they are sold off to monsters who will kill and eat them, gloating that one is a cannibal who likes to torture his victims for weeks.
- Joan is the head of the auction house. A seemingly sweet woman, Joan has one innocent man garroted as a message before having the other prisoners delivered to the auction, where she happily offers them for top dollar to the monstrous audience. Joan happily permits one to drain the blood of a terrified Jake once she has bought him, selling countless individuals over the years to the monsters, to be tortured, murdered and devoured as long as she profits.
- League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: 'Jimmy' Bond is a ruthless thug and Serial Rapist who refuses to take no for an answer, introduced trying to seduce and then rape a disguised Mina Murray. Jimmy is revealed to be a traitor who murdered industrialist Knight and later kills Knight's best friend, Bulldog Drummond before making it clear he plans to seduce Knight's daughter Emma in her grief. Later becoming 'M' in his old age, Jimmy has friends of Mina's tortured and killed to obtain access to the pool of Ker and immortality, murdering his handler as a young man and murdering and torturing his way to get to his foes. Jimmy even fires nukes at micro-nations, trying to obliterate the Blazing World and the mystical races there before trying to sneak aboard the Leagues' ship to murder Emma one final time.
- Colossus and the Headhunters: Kermes is a ruthless usurper who aims to rise to rule his tribe, betraying them to Goona's headhunters. He overthrows Princess Amoa's father and tortures him, trying to force Amoa to marry him to obtain access to the throne, before he allows the Headhunters access to her tribe, having a man decapitated to prove a point to the others, willing to have hundreds more killed for the sake of power.
- Hercules and the tyrants of Babylon: Taneal is one of the three tyrants, and the sister of the other two. Plotting to do away with her brothers, Taneal helps run Babylon as a slavery-ridden hellhole where many are mistreated and brutalized, or even killed. When war begins, Taneal decides to have the slave turn a wheel to destroy the foundations of the city while she flees with the army and the treasure, plotting to let every civilian and slave, plus her brothers, die in the collapse of the city.
- Darkstone: The evil dragon Draak once tried to conquer the world before being driven away. Returning, Draak incinerates the order of monks of the goddess, brutally sweeping across the land to kill multtiudes of people with his forces and monsters, utilizing the evil Darkstone to rise even further. With the Darkstone, Draak plots to drain the lives of everyone in the kingdoms to empower himself and rise to godhood.
- Bruce Lee and the Chinese Gods: The evil king and his wife, the fox spirit Da Ji, are a pair of horrific tyrants who starve, torture and kill their population. When anyone opposes them, the two have them torture and executed, multiple people burnt alive at one point. At another, a kind adviser is forced to carve out his own heart. When the gods intervene to save the people, the pair start a war to slaughter the neighboring nation and even call demons down upon the world to do more damage.
- Witchlight: Azhdeha is an ancient dragon who tried to destroy the world with his fellows before being sealed off. Returning, Azhdeha plots to kill Illiana, the child of wild magic and condemn the world to death and rebirth. Through this end, Azhdeha brings the shapeshifters under his control, has the witch matriarch killed and disguises himself to kill the heroes, while having shapeshifters initiate uprisings across the nation to kill many, many people, not caring at who throws their lives away in pursuit of his goal.
- King Solomon's Mines:
- King Twala One-Eye is the ruler of the Kakuana people. A brutal tyrant, Twala rose to power by murdering his brother and sentencing his sister-in-law and her baby to the desert to die. Twala accuses others of treason to have them killed, using Gagool's witch hunts as pretext to execute them, with one hundred victims executed as a demonstration. Twala also has human sacrifice practice, gleeful murdering as he will, and has killed so many that the blood is said to flow like rivers in spring.
- The witch Gagool helped Twala's brutla takeover and keeps him in power by having countless innocents executing, claiming them as 'witches' or treasonous to see them murdered on trumped up charges to maintain her own power base. Gagool also practices human sacrifice on young maidens, and when Twala falls, she seeks to kill the adventuring party by trapping them in the mines, even trying to murder the brave young woman Foulata when she tries to save them.
Showtime!
to Karthan
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Okay, besides the two Maciste ones in this batch, as well as Cabiria, and the one Clown-Face did (can't remember the title), are there any others?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The two ks
A typical, one-off villain? One to two was the norm, with maybe an attempt at more. The vast majority of antagonists were mundane people motivated by things like revenge against specific persons, mental illness, or greed (a life insurance or inheritance murder, kidnapping for ransom, etc.)
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, I'll lean a slight yes for Tyler then.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"The Juice is Loose."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Okay, I THINK I got them all:
- Maciste (by release date):
- Cabiria: Karthalo is one of the earliest examples of a film CM, and still one of the vilest. The High Priest of the devilish, three-eyed Moloch, Karthalo engineers the mass sacrifice of hundreds of children at a time to be stripped naked and dumped one-by-one into a furnace to be burned alive as tribute to Moloch. Karthalo coldly tortures and murders any opposition to the sacrifice, having Croessa, the nanny of the young Cabiria, painfully flogged and later ripped apart by his followers, and later brutally torturing the good-hearted servant Maciste before chaining him to a millstone and condemning him to grueling labor at the millstone's side for the rest of his life. In his lowest moment, Karthalo attempts to rape Cabiria, the same girl he had attempted to sacrifice over ten years ago, out of nothing more than a fit of cruel lust. A zealot, a slaver, a torturer, and a madman with countless atrocities on his hands, Karthalo's evil shines just as wickedly today as it did over a century ago.
- Son of Samson (1960): The evil queen Smedes of Egypt, and her royal vizier partner, are a pair of Persian sympathizers looking to maintain control over Egypt. Murdering the goodhearted pharaoh and brainwashing his son Kenamon, Smedes and her vizier put the people of Egypt under a terrifying, despotic reign of torture, slavery and massacres, with one luckless rebel taken and burnt with hot pokers until the vizier simply tortures him to death. Smedes also has women taken to be sold into slavery, targeting Kenamon's beloved Nofret, intending on control of Egypt without caring how many she has to slaughter.
- Goliath and the Vampires (1961): Kobrak is the vampiric master of the kingdom of Salmanak, ruling through its Sultan. Seeking world domination, Kobrak has entire villages burned to the ground, with survivors taken to be made into his robotic slave army, while women are forced into harems. After the Sultan defies him by allowing Goliath and his love Guja to escape, Kobrak murders him and later has Goliath and Guja captured himself, attempting to destroy Goliath's brain through sound waves to make him his mindless slave. When Goliath escapes, Kobrak assumes his form and infiltrates the cave of the rebel Blue Men to attempt to kill them all, fatally impaling his former slave Astra when she warns them.
- Colossus and the Headhunters: Kermes is a ruthless usurper who aims to rise to rule his tribe, betraying them to Goona's headhunters. He overthrows Princess Amoa's father and tortures him, trying to force Amoa to marry him to obtain access to the throne, before he allows the Headhunters access to her tribe, having a man decapitated to prove a point to the others, willing to have hundreds more killed for the sake of power.
- Hercules and the Tyrants of Babylon (1964): Taneal is one of the three tyrants, and the sister of the other two. Plotting to do away with her brothers, Taneal helps run Babylon as a slavery-ridden hellhole where many are mistreated and brutalized, or even killed. When war begins, Taneal decides to have the slave turn a wheel to destroy the foundations of the city while she flees with the army and the treasure, plotting to let every civilian and slave, plus her brothers, die in the collapse of the city.
Edited by ACW on Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:48:00 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Ugh I reserved Karpan in my to do list. but yeah to him.
Edited by Silverblade2 on Aug 3rd 2019 at 10:52:33 AM
The wifi here sucks
I just removed the Lion King remake from the dates page if that's ok.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
I'll do that with Charon when the other dude gets written up.
How many victims DOES Tyler have total (attempted AND successful)?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts