Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

That looks alright.

I think I've brought this up before ^note nearly two years ago, no response one way or the other, but I'll ask again with FriedWarthog and a bunch of other Mega Man buffs here: Do you think Silver Horn from Mega Man X: Command Mission could be worth discussing? I know he's a fairly minor antagonist in the game, but I do remember him being fairly sinister with his sheer sadism.

edited 13th Sep '17 10:06:57 AM by speyeker

I can't say. If you think he may count, do an EP and give us a fair view of the heinous sandard.

I'm not sure on Stein/Stone btw, because xenogears has such an enormous fucking heinous standard. Miang manipulates a ton of destruction and death so Deus can exterminate most of humanity. Grahf aims to destroy the world himself. Krelian commits atrocious experiments and helps to bring about the end times so he can finally discern the true nature of God. Stein has lower resources, but it's a steep competition.

The problem is that I don't remember the game well enough, and so I would essentially need to find time to watch a You Tube playthrough of that chapter of the game before I could even think of drafting an effortpost. I'm hoping the first step is at least trying to gauge interest from others that may be familiar with the game, hopefully more so than I am.

A quick look at the wiki seems to show Silver Horn as a textbook example of Wardens Are Evil, employing torture, coercion and mocking people he considered weak, such as describing the torture he put one character through just to hurt another. He apparently also threatened to kill all the prisoners if Nana didn't serve as the Prison's Operator. Seems he could count, but I will leave the EP to those more familiar.

@Larkmarn: Well, huh. I don't actually watch the show, so I can't really contribute - I just voted based on the effortpost.

Hmm... Silver Horn could count I guess? But I dunno, I haven't played the game. I'm not opposed to watching an LP or something, but considering that the season of the Battle Network anime I'm watching for Slur's re-evaluation has a whopping 51 22 minute episodes... it'll take me a while to get to it, to say the least.

Oh, and speaking of Silver Horn, I remember Command Mission's main villain being proposed a while back, though I don't think the discussion really went anywhere.

edited 13th Sep '17 10:32:29 AM by FriedWarthog

I can look deeper into Silver Horn. I don't think the sentiment of him counting is impossible.

"51 22 minute episodes"

Well then, guess that group will remain in the folder in Drafts for awhile then (or maybe I'll wait until Scraggle does the other anime baddies).

Will do.

edited 13th Sep '17 11:05:04 AM by ACW

Plan on keeping the folder in the drafts for a bit. I'll likely bring up any keepers on my end at the same time Warthog does Racial Slur.

On the subject of Redips (the Big Bad of Command Mission) I suppose I could take a look there too, but I don't know... he seems a bit standard in some areas, especially with everyone Sigma gets up to in comparison.

edited 13th Sep '17 11:01:08 AM by Scraggle

I've tended to lean toward "No" on Redips, mostly because he's not actually behind the events of the Rebellion Army, the Anti-Villain group that serves as the main antagonists for the vast majority of the game. He's not controlling Epsilon or anything; Epsilon is doing everything of his own free will, and he's essentially a Well-Intentioned Extremist. Redips, by comparison, is much nastier and more selfish, but the extent of his villainy is rather Let No Crisis Go to Waste; he simply takes advantage of the fact that Epsilon is hoarding SupraForce Metal in order to take it for himself and Take Over the World. That's a large extent of everything Redips actually does in the game, and while he certainly intends to conquer the world, he doesn't get very far before the heroes defeat him. He kills Chief R, and that's pretty much it.

Which itself almost makes me have second thoughts about Silver Horn, but again, it may come down to a resource issue, and Silver Horn does a lot with what's given to him. And also, I don't think any villain in the game has the level of bloodthirsty sadism that Silver Horn expresses, which is why I think he may count, but I'm still not 100% sold. I just feel like it might be worth investigating in a preliminary fashion.

edited 13th Sep '17 11:17:27 AM by speyeker

All I know about Redips is some jokes Two Best Friends Play and affiliates sometimes make about them.

And of course, Sigma is Sigma. He has much higher resources than most Megaman villains, so Redips might be able to get some leeway depending on what they can do. Then again, I don't need to tell Scraggle this.

Jesus, Dr Weil is so evil. Sorry, but I was just thinking of him. Christ, what a prick.

EDIT: Hm. Could be a problem for Redips. We'll see, I suppose.

edited 13th Sep '17 11:18:18 AM by PolarPhantom

Honestly, I'm inclined to agree with Redips not counting... while we measure attempted villainy in the same capacity as success, I still have to say what he does doesn't qualify him for the trope.

As for Silver Horn... I suppose it depends whether we weigh the game by its own standard or compare Silver Horn to other area bosses in the X series. On his own? Silver Horn probably makes it... torturing the original Steel Massimo to death is probably the most vicious act in the game, and all of his other acts — threatening to execute all of the prisoners of the sadistic death camp he runs to coerce Nana, brutalizing Nana herself, having an explicit history of torture and murder against the Reploids, and his general sadism and "the weak must bow down to the strong!" mentality — I think push him over. If we weigh him some of Mavericks, on the other hand... that might become of a problem.

Going by this, we MAY be able to take the game on its own.

Alright, provided it's non-canonical... yeah, I can definitely see Silver Horn counting. I can have an EP up within the day if we want.

Cool, thanks! Yeah, I was sorta worried about comparing him to other Mavericks as well. Starting with X4 and onwards there's always some exchange of dialogue whenever you enter a boss door in the X series (and hell, the Zero and ZX series as well) that gives you more background info on the boss you're up against. There's usually a wide range of personalities in the bunch, from being Anti Villains to outright sadistic Ax-Crazy lunatics. I think the only way Command Mission differs is that because it's an RPG, the amount of characterization about the boss is way more than your average 32-bit onward Mega Man X game, and we're able to see their actions in much greater detail.

edited 13th Sep '17 11:42:09 AM by speyeker

Who is he and what does he do? Tetsuo Tamashiro, a relatively minor villain in Sega's amazing Yakuza 3. He's the head of a branch of the massive Tojo Clan, out in Okinawa and Starter Villain in the game.

Heinousness standard? Okay, so. This is a series about Japanese gangsters. There's a lot of heinousness around. Obviously plenty of murder, violence, backstabbery, and general dickishness. And hey, this guy has all of that and some truly uniquely heinous actions to his name to boot. Let's start at the most basic: the game has a very romantic view of the yakuza as a whole. They're ridiculously brutal to their enemies, but they have a code and to their allies they should be ridiculously close. Tamashiro has neither of these attributes. He's openly disrespectful to the former chair of the Tojo Clan and regularly starts beefs with other local branches. He's unpleasant and rude and basically serves to show what a Yakuza shouldn't be. But that's just small potatoes. In order to hurt a rival branch and get leverage over its head, Nakahara, he decides to kidnap Nakahara's adoptive daughter. To do so, he coerces Saki's abusive mother to kidnap Saki and deliver her to him, under the lie that he'll marry her and take them both in after he takes out Nakahara. He then tells her it was a lie, tells the mother he'd never be interested in an old whore like her, taunts Saki about her biological father's suicide (which she witnessed and is so traumatized by that she's been rendered mute), and slaps the mother for good measure. This is the point where the main character, Kazuma Kiryu declares This Is Unforgivable! and beats Tetsuo down and leaves him to deal with the game's actual plot.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut he comes back, and comes back swinging. MUCH later in the game, he makes a grand reappearance... gleefully bulldozing Kiryu's orphanage and threatening its children. As a bonus, petty Kick the Dog, he has his men even demolish the dog house. Through one of the men trying to defend the house (who thankfully survives despite the clearly massive internal trauma and the fact Tamashiro kneecapped him). He then kidnaps Nakahara to have leverage on Kiryu for when he inevitably returns for a Roaring Rampage of Revenge. And what does he do with him? Throws him in a bullring to be gored to death in front of Kiryu and Saki, laughing all the way. So once that gets sorted out, Kiryu kicks his ass again. Unlike most Yakuza in the series, he's no Graceful Loser and when Kiryu's back is turned, tries to shoot him and fatally wounds The Lancer, Rikiya.

Like I said before, heinousness is high in the series. There are conspiracies a-plenty, tons of Character Death, kidnapping, betrayal, corruption, and gang wars. One of the protagonists is a borderline psychotic Knife Nut (voiced by Mark Hamill, incidentally) who happily beats his own men. Tamashiro admittedly has a single successful on-screen kill, but his resources are next to nil compared to the heavy-hitters. Yakuza 4 has a Big Bad Duumvirate who tick off every one of those boxes. That duumvirate consisted of the a front runner for head of the Tojo Chan and the head of police in Tokyo. Tamashiro, on the other hand, is the head of a minor branch of the Tojo Clan in the boonies and still managed every box. And to boot, he's personally vile, petty, and kicks the dog wherever he goes. And no one really touches him on his level of psychological abuse and Would Hit a Girl-ness or petty and personal dog-kicking. Most characters that do terrible things do it for a goal. Even if said goal is something selfish like money or power, it's better than being an ass for the sake of being an ass.

Mitigating factors? The closest thing to a mitigating factor is that Saki's mother wanted to marry Nakahara and for the three of them to be a family. But she's also not that smart, explicitly abusive, and very desperate so claiming that her affection means anything is pointless. And as mentioned above, his response to her makes it very clear it doesn't mitigate a thing.

Theoretically, the fact that he didn't slaughter everyone when he demolished the orphanage could show the Even Evil Has Standards. That said, it could also be seen as Pragmatic Villainy or even a Kick the Dog if he wanted them all to suffer. I don't think it can really factor in either way since we don't know. Bulldozer shows up, begins wrecking shit up, scene ends.

Verdict? I'd say he counts. The setting is full of awful people, but despite having limited resources he manages some impressively terrible things (particularly if Protagonist-Centered Morality is concerned).

edited 13th Sep '17 11:44:05 AM by Larkmarn

Out of interest, was the bulldozing moment legal or did he do it without permission?

Forcing a man to fight bulls in front of his loved ones... That's a new one. I'm inclined to for now. I wonder if there's anyone else fond of Yakuza that can help us measure the heinous standard?

Are we sure Command Mission is non canonical and not just a Gaiden Game?

Hilariously illegal. The Tojo Clan had originally tried to coerce Kiryu to give up the land, but the head of the clan very explicitly told him to back off when he learned it was Kiryu's land.

So even in mob terms it was illegal.

edited 13th Sep '17 12:04:32 PM by Larkmarn

I'd say yea to Tamashiro. Anyways, Silver Horn...

What's the setting?

Sort of a weird entry in the Mega Man X franchise (and that is saying something), Mega Man X: Command Mission is the series take on an RPG game. Following X and Zero, this game takes a break from the ongoing wars with Sigma and his Mavericks to focus on a conflict on Giga City, a Reploid state on an island rich with a material known as Force Metal. With the Rebellion army, led by the charismatic Epsilon, bent on securing the island and all of its Force Metal, X and Zero are dispatched to stop the army. Now then, for Silver Horn...

Who is Silver Horn? What has he done?

Introduced in the third chapter, Silver Horn is a burly, three-horned Reploid that serves as the warden of Tianna Camp, an old mine that was repurposed into a POW camp by the Rebellion army. A vicious Social Darwinist who firmly believes it is the Rebellion's destiny to take over the world and crush the weak under their heel, Silver Horn establishes a vicious path of murder and carnage against Reploids who dissented against the Rebellion, killing several of them — and explicitly being noted to have made them suffer first — and capturing the rest. One particular instance, with the original Steel Massimo? After Massimo refused to cooperate, Silver Horn brutally tortures the dude, tearing off his limbs one by one and leaving his mangled, barely-living body underneath the Tianna Camp.

As X and Zero are dispatched to the camp to liberate the prisoners, Silver Horn introduces himself locking a Navigator named Nana into a steel chair to oversee the facility, threatening that should she not do her job, he'll happily execute all of the prisoners — and coldly informing Nana that she is now completely owned by the Rebellion. The chapter is spent navigating the camp and seeing the effects of Silver Horn's handiwork... the terrified survivors of Silver Horn's carnage relaying the tales of how Silver Horn murdered their companions in front of them, and the new Silver Massimo encountering the tortured remains of the original, who soon perishes from Silver Horn's torture. At the end of the chapter, Silver Horn captures Nana and sadistically grinds her under his heel when he's confronted by the heroes, gloating over how he tore apart the original Massimo and gleefully espousing his philosophies that all those who do not join the Rebellion must be dominated. Thankfully, Massimo puts a cork in Silver Horn's fat mouth by blasting him and a fierce battle ensues, ending with the death of the evil warden and the liberation of Tianna Camp.

Any mitigating factors?

Not a whit for Silver Horn himself, and I think he handily clears the heinous standard for his own game, especially considering his limited resources and screentime. Most of the other Rebellion forces are well-intentioned to some degree and don't get up to the explicit violence that Silver Horn does. Silver Horn, on the other hand? Is just a sadist and a thug on a power trip who glories in his new position as warden of the Tianna Camp.

Now, as compared to the rest of the series... official Japanese sources say this game is completely displaced from the main storyline of the X series, so I think it's safe to judge Silver Horn on his own merits. From where I'm standing, Silver Horn passes in his own tier pretty easily. Hell, even if we did compare him to the other Mavericks (mostly the nastier ones like Magma Dragoon), very few Mavericks in the series actually do manage to get up to as much sadistic torture and murder Silver Horn does.

Conclusion?

For as minor of a villain as Silver Horn is... he is impressively nasty. I'll leave the decision of whether or not he counts to you guys.

Thoughts?

edited 13th Sep '17 12:43:55 PM by Scraggle

Silver Horn

to Silver Horn. Even comparing him to more major villains like Redips, Epsilon, and Sigma, I'd say he counts with what he's given.

Thank you for doing this, Scraggle. I sincerely appreciate it.

edited 13th Sep '17 12:31:46 PM by speyeker

No problem. Happy we finally have something of a conclusive stance on Redips too.

Tamashiro... I think I'll give him a yes for now. Same with Silver Horn, real nasty sounding dude, I'd say.

edited 13th Sep '17 12:41:31 PM by FriedWarthog

I'd say to Tetsuo as well.

Silver Horn.

Unsure on Yakuza dude. I mean, the Kick the Dog stuff is bad, but unsure if really bad enough. Though if the orphanage was occupied, I'm leaning yes.

edited 13th Sep '17 12:48:14 PM by ACW