During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I regret nothing!
If the consensus is that Evil Robert qualifies, should I create a page for the series, if only a YMMV page? It currently doesn't have one, and I'm still a bit new so I'm not sure what to do in this situation.
The gene pool is stagnant and I am the minister of chlorine.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think the standard procedure is to make a YMMV page anyways.
I regret nothing!
Made a page for the series, as well as a YMMV page. Each only have one trope, but it's a work in progress. Point is, the writeup is easily accessible now.
The gene pool is stagnant and I am the minister of chlorine.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Skorzeny (didn't think Chuck Connors could play someone so vicious), the double, and the Commandant.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Commandant, for sure.
@ ACW, okay I added those two characters to the YMMV section of their works.
edited 25th Oct '15 3:59:11 PM by Overlord
Commandant
General Ripper + using Child Soldiers + pedophilia = a pretty bad person.
edited 25th Oct '15 4:42:14 PM by Tbone511
Caesar
to Skorenzy and The Commandant
Anywho, just finished the Widdershins Adventures series, and I have two potential candidates. I'll start by doing the one I'm not as sure on (Not for heinousness issues, but for a possible mitigating factor.) SPOILERS!!
Who is he?
Iruoch is the main antagonist of the second book, False Covenant. He is an evil Faere (Fairy).
He shows up in the city of Davillon (The main setting) when the bishop of the local Church, trying to inspire more people to attend the services, hires a group of men to masquerade as otherworldy creatures to make the citizens want the "protection" of the gods. The fear that the townsfolk experience attracts Iruoch, and then the fun begins.
What has he done?
Iruoch is known through the legends about him (Mainly an old children's rhyme about him and how he eats children). Those weren't legends, but forgotten history.
Everywhere Iruoch goes, he has the spirits of the kids he has killed followinf him around and making "reactions" for him (He laughs, they laugh. He screams, they scream. etc.)
Arriving in the city, Iruoch immediately "feeds" on an officer. (He feeds by, basically, sucking your insides and soul out through your mouth.)
Next, Iruoch kills numerous other people, and cows a young thief into becoming his Dragon.
Murdering a shopkeeper, Iruoch forces the thief, Squirrel, to use an assortment of snacks and treats acquired form the shopkeeper to attract children to him. You can guess where that leads.
When the police find the dead bodies of 6 children, they note how 4 of them were "eaten," but the last two Iruoch had killed for the heck of it.
Iruoch next shows up at a party of nobles, and, manipulatng his way into the building, finds the room where the close-to-a-dozen noble children are, kills their caretaker, then eats them.
Iruoch sets what's left of their bodies up to look like kids just doing kids' stuff, mocking the people who find the bodies. (And sending a message to the protagonist, Shins.)
Throughout all of this, Squirrel is slowly becoming decrepit, his body withering at all of the work Iruoch forces on him and his mind breaking at the fact he has assisted Iruoch in his crimes (Crimes that Iruoch makes him watch.)
Iruoch continues killing people, and, after getting the last information he could out of Squirrel, murders him.
Finding Shin, Iruoch attacks her and her friends, killing a few guards in the process.
Shin ties Iruoch to a horse and sets the horse to running, giving her and her friends time to regroup.
Iruoch kills the horse, and, when a few townsfolk try to help him up, Iruoch murders and eats them.
Meeting Shin for a final showdown, Iruoch ends up murdering her Love Interest, before finally being killed by Shin.
His influence also causes the Big Bad of the fourth book to summon 3 other Faeres.
Throughout the novel, Iruoch is a sadistic and joking monster who often draws his victims deaths out and taunts them. (He also rhymes alot, most of which are simply ''atrocious''
Freudian Excuse?
Pfft.
Redeeming features?
Pfft x2
Mitigating factors?
Other members of his race show up in the final book (3 of them, to be exact) and they are all evil. Not even close to the extent of Iruoch, but still.
As for morality, his is basically the same as a humans. He is a sadist, and behaves much like The Joker.
Heinousness?
Continuing from before, the Big Bad of the final book summons 3 Faeres to help her take over the city. They oblige, but only because they want revenge on Shin for killing one of their kind (It makes them look bad when one of their race can get beaten by a human).
Of the 3, the most evil one's crimes boil down to, "Find kids who hate their parents; Torture then kill parents; Leave kids orphaned." None of this is really onscreen though, and as I'm sure you can tell, even if it was, it's still not even close to Iruoch, whose M.O. is to sadistically kill people (Mostly chlildren) and/or sadistically eat them.
As for other antagonists throughout the series, he is probably the most evil, but that comes from the fact that he is Physics-defying Humanoid Abomination.
Final Verdict?
It all depends on how Always Chaotic Evil you view his race. From what we see, all of his race are, to some degree, jackasses, but Iruoch absolutely eclipses them in evil (There's also the fact that no other Faeres show the compulsion to eat people. That's all him), and everyone, even the final Big Bad, seem to realize he was worse than the rest of his race.
I'm gonna wait-and-see what everyone else thinks.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
If no other faerie is a Child Eater, then Iruoch
Caesar
Yep. Unless I missed something, Iruoch is the only one who is outright confirmed to eat children. In fact, some of the other Faeres actually sort of like children and think they are helping them when they kill their parents.
Iruoch is explicitly stated to be murdering and eating people/ children For the Evulz
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
I regret nothing!
Here's my final writeup for the double, since he counts at this point:
- Circle Of Fear (originally titled Ghost Story): Robert Cameron's dark half from the episode, "Alter-Ego," is the sociopathic and highly manipulative imaginary double of a young boy who becomes real. Originally imagined by Robert as a chess partner while he's stuck at home with a broken leg, the double quickly gains independence and starts going to school in Robert's place. Deciding that he dislikes Robert's teacher, he begins to antagonize her, but always makes sure to arrange things to make it look like she's antagonizing him instead. Intentionally making her paranoid, he causes her to lash out at him, getting her fired. He then shows up at her house and causes her to trip and fall onto her gardening shears, killing her. His presence causes the real Robert to become weaker, and he ultimately intends to sap his life energy and replace him. He brags that no one, not even the boy's parents, will realize what has happened. Additionally, he kills several of Robert's pets seemingly for no other reason than to torment him. Evidentlynote a separate entity, rather than a simple manifestation of Robert's negative thoughts, this Evil Twin was definitely a force to be reckoned with, and was only barely outwitted in the end.
edited 25th Oct '15 7:10:23 PM by PostalDude47
The gene pool is stagnant and I am the minister of chlorine.
I will cut Ho oh of Poke Wars from the sandbox page seeing as there were a bunch of thumbs downs a while ago. Since that was the last pokemon fic we had to look at, I will also request swapping out main with the sandbox.
I also have a proposed cut via the new rules provided by Demon Duck Of Doom: Twilight from Pages Of Harmony. One rule states: Any examples from the original canon, barring alternate universe versions, must be somewhat believable. So, say, a monstrous version of Roose Bolton can be there, but a monstrous version of Genie cannot. While the fics page at Fimfiction.Net does have the category of Alternate Universe, we never see the canon mlp fim universe or any other universes in the fic. Twilight is not believable, as... Well, do I really need to explain why? If we let in every version of a character from a fic that as Alternate Universe listed as one of the tags (with no signs of any other universes), we would have to many examples.
jjj
"The Commandant". Yup.
Not so sure about Iruoch, pending clarification: when you say he has a 'compulsion' to eat people, you mean he makes it a habit? Or is it literally a compulsion?
From what I recall, it's a habit he enjoys doing, not something he's forced to. I'm giving a yes
Om nom nom nom nom.
Btw, I've flagged posts in that Writers Block thread. I didn't think it was constructive to respond given how hostile they are to the clean up thread (and the tropers involved).
Caesar
Wrong choice of words on my part. He just does it because he enjoys it. He takes way too much pleasure out of it and never once shows even a bit of hesitation to kill and eat people.
There's also the fact that throughout the book, he kills quite a few people and children, and yet, doesn't eat them. He just kills them for fun. So, the whole eating thing is really just because he finds them tasty, not because he "needs" to eat or anything like that.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Caesar
Anywho, I suppose I'll go ahead and effortpost the other villain I had in mind. SPOILERS!!
Who is he?
The Apostle, AKA Claude is the Big Bad of the first book, Thief's Covenant. He is an, you guessed it, Apostle for his god, Cevora.
What has he done?
A couple of years ago, The Apostle served a noble named Alexandre, and would consistently try to turn him to the religion of Cevora, seeing as having a noble of such high-standing in on the religion would make him quite popular with Cevora.
Alexandre "adopts" a young thief girl, and The Apostle quickly takes a disliking to her, taking every opportunity to hurt and bully her.
When The Apostle discovers Alexandre is worshiping another, much nicer deity named Olgun, he cooks up a plan.
Using about 5 people as sacrifices, The Apostle summons a mosteous demon, and sics it on Olgun's church, and it ends up murdering all 26 believers (Olgun didn't have many followers), with the only survivor being the protagonist, Shins.
Turns out, The Apostle wanted all the believers dead, because if every believer of one god dies (or at least, their belief in the god), then so, too, the god will die. The Apostle wanted Olgun dead so he could use him as a sacrifice to make Cevora, and by extension himself, more powerful.
After the murders, The Apostle manipulates Alexandre back into the fold of Cevora.
The Apostle does his best to frame Shins for the murders, and then orders several assassins to kill the visiting Archbishop, afraid he would discover The Apostle's plans.
The assassins fail, thanks to Shins' intervention, and The Apostle responds to this by using them as sacrifices (Very painful death, I should add) to once again summon the monstrous demon from before.
The Apostle spares his Dragon of this fate, and orders him to work with the demon find and kill Shins, much to his Dragons horror.
While searching for Shins, the demon regularly kills people who get in its way (On The Apostle's orders) and the two come very close to killing her (Shins is about 15 by the way)
When Shins returns to Alexandre (Her farther-figure) for help, The Apostle murders him and the Archbishop, knowinf it will cause uproars throughout the city, then frames Shins for it. Again.
The Apostles' Dragon lays a trap that results in Shins' best friend's death, something The Apostle couldn't care less about.
The Apostle then forces Shins to lead him to any other Olgun worshippers (there aren't any, she was just buying time), and he ends up believing local thieving group (Populated mostly by Noble Demons who are Shins friends) have a few worshippers inside, so he orders an all-out attack, killing numerous members of the place.
The Apostle then reveals he was almost positive there weren't actually anymore Olgun worshippers, and that he had just went along with her act to see who she would lead him to and watch him subsequently slaughter.
The group overwhelms The Apostle's forces, and he is killed duing his attempted murder of Shins.
Freudian Excuse or orher redeeming features?
No excuse. As for redeeming features, he seems to be loyal to Cevora, but this is never elaborated upon, with him being, in other characters' own words, a "power-hungry fanatic" The closest he comes to a sympathetic moment is when he shot, his final words are "I don't understand. Cevora…" But this just seemed like he was bewildered that he was beaten when he had such a "powerful being" on his side.
Heinousness?
Isn't as bad as, say, Iruoch, but still, with the resources he has (His only supernatural weapon is a demonous monster, compared to the other books' villains having practically superpowers.)
Overall, he had a church of 26 people massacred (Some of which were adolescents), regularly turns his own men into sacrifices to summon a demon, kills his "Best friend" and the Archbishop, knowing it could start a war, and leads an assault on a group of dozens of Anti Villains while knowing it was probably for nothing.
Final Verdict?
I'm leaning
edited 25th Oct '15 10:09:16 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Apostle
@bobg: When I mentioned the exception of Alternate Universe fics, I didn't just mean dimensional travel fics. I also meant stories intended to take place in another universe, like a High School AU fic or something like that. That being said, if Pages Of Harmony isn't an AU fic, ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Twilight.
There's also the fact that throughout the book, he kills quite a few people and children, and yet, doesn't eat them. He just kills them for fun. So, the whole eating thing is really just because he finds them tasty, not because he "needs" to eat or anything like that.
If that's the case, I'll vote for his inclusion.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
both Iruoch and The Apostle. Does Cevora actually do anything him/herself?
The Apostle.
Caesar
Nah. Most of the gods don't do or say much. Only the protagonist's personal god (Olgun), really communicates with his servants, and that's just because he doesn't have enough believers to become powerful enough to be a "true" god (Who are notoriously not very communicative.)
edited 26th Oct '15 7:14:59 AM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
To both Iruoch and the Apostle.
Lizzid people!
Ravok's proposals.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Commandant.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM DraftsPlease add Shiwan and the Rutaganda expansion to the respective YMMV pages; I'll work on them next week.