During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yes to The Chief. No to the Dweller.
The Draftsman of Doom
I fail to see the Dweller's manipulations as much different from, say, an animal preying on other animals, as far as intelligence is concerned. Since we otherwise have no insight into motive, I'm afraid I must decline it as a candidate.
That said, I am glad you gave us something to discuss.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 17th 2021 at 9:15:40 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Showtime!
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to the dweller
Lies and Violence!
With that out of the way, now for the three I actually give a damn about!
Mir, you can ignore these guys.
The Gotham City Society of Fireproof Women (I don't get the name either) is an excellent fanfic cantered around the Batfamily I covered for the MB thread a while back, so going to try it here too.
The Candidate
David Cain is the father of Cassandra Cain, and a longstanding member of Ra's al Ghul's League of Assassins assigned to the creation of "The-One-Who-Is-All" — a One-Man Army that would serve as the loyal bodyguard of the Demon's Head. Having already gone through and dealt with two candidates, he murdered the sister of a martial-arts prodigy named Sandra Wu-San. Sandra hunted down Cain in revenge, cutting a bloody swath across the world and becoming known as the most dangerous woman alive, Lady Shiva. When she finally caught up to Cain she thanked him for what he had done, as her quest to avenge her sister turned her into a warrior beyond her wildest dreams.
The two had a child together, Cain naming her Cassaandra (for organizational purposes, his last two attempts were named Andrew and Brandon). The fic puts it better than I could:
- She was trained—quite literally from birth—to be the consummate killing machine. She was raised in an environment almost entirely bereft of verbal or written stimulus. She was not taught to talk or read. She was taught every form of martial arts known to man.
In order to educate Cassandra on the human body, the location of nerve clusters, pressure points, veins, arteries, organs, David would quite literally murder people in front of her.
Not only that, but she was taught to endure grievous amounts of pain. Miss Park tells me that one of the things David liked to do to his daughter was shoot her in a non-vital part of her body, and if she cried out, if she even so much as flinched, he would shoot her in the same spot again.
This went on for the first nine years of her life, during which time Cassandra showed prodigious and devastating talent, so much so that she could predict the movements of her opponent, or group of opponents, before even they could. Body language is her first language, and she can divine a person's intent from the slightest movement.
Until the time finally came for David to take Cassandra out in the field for her first assassination mission.
The place was Macau, and the mark was a bookie named Faizul. Cassandra Cain tore his throat out with her bare hands.
She was only nine years old.
It was at this point, though details are sketchy, that Cassandra left David's tutelage. Being that David was willing to murder the same people in Gotham who had previously employed him in the attempt to find her again, I can only assume that her leaving was her idea.
Until!
...Okay, first off, I swear the story's more street level then what I'm about to get into, they only do a legitimate cosmic threat this once.
Cain is visited by the Greek Goddess Harmonia, who because of reasons wants to destroy the multiverse. This being a Goddess and all Cain immediately feels revitalized, joining in her crusade alongside — okay, it's more complicated than this, but essentially universe-displaced versions of Jason Todd and Damien Wayne, the latter of whom is especially evil.
The group heads to Gotham and causes a bunch of distractions for the Batfam while Harmonia continues with her plan. Jason starts a gang war while Cain and Damien massacre Black Mask and his goons, later trying to create an international incident by assassinating a diplomat from Kahndaq (the country Black Adam rules).
To get the upper hand on Cass, Cain implants himself with weird light distorting things that make it hard to see his movements. After their first fight they meet again in a public park, Cain threatening to shoot a bunch of kids if she tries to pull anything and taunting her about how Batman's made her into a worthless "faulty sword." He also tells her that he'll reveal her mother's identity if she just surrenders.
Cass obviously refuses, and they have a rematch during the aforementioned international incident thing. She bring with her an EMP to take out his implants and Cain runs for his life, trying to hold a security guard hostage in a futile attempt to stave off his thrashing.
Due to shenanigans, Cass is teleported away and Harmonia gets possessed by the goddess Nemesis. Cain's a bit frightened by her but otherwise content to start working for her now. While Nemesis continues with the plan the three minions continue with their distractions, trying to draw out their respective arch-enemies with bombs that are set to kill 175,000 people. Cain waits for his daughter...
And is instead greeted by Tim Drake. And all of Young Justice. They beat the living shit out of him.
Imprisoned, Cain calls Cass a coward and rants about how he'll always be in her nightmares. Cass just laughs him off and shows him a picture Tim took after they beat him up.
Any Redeeming Qualities?
None. Cain's an asshole through and through, and shows no remorse for horrifically torturing his daughter. He cares only about securing his "immortality" by creating the perfect weapon. Even his devotion to Harmonia quickly evaporates when Nemesis takes over and he switches allegiances — partially out of fear upon seeing what she did to Jason, partially because he respects strength.
Heinous Standard
Here there's a few more problems. Harmonia and Nemesis want to destroy the multiverse, which, you know, is a bit much. But they're goddesses, so I think they edge out on resources.
Similarly, while the rest of the fic is more street level there are still three massive terrorist attacks, two of which were aimed at destroying Gotham in its entirety. However, those two were done by Talia and Ra's, who while not gods also kind of edge out on resources, while the smaller-scale third one was done by Cluemaster on accident using a newly invented superbomb I'm confident Cain would have used had it been available.
Cain's not a god. He's not the head of the League. He's just one assassin dude who unrepentantly tortured his daughter. While it's ambiguous if he knew the full omnicidal intent of his bosses' plans, he was still perfectly fine facilitating the deaths of thousands of people just to get back at his daughter for running away.
Other Candidates
Because I know ACW will ask, the only other ones who count are Nemesis and Ra's.
- Jason is easily the least evil of the three minions, and eventually takes on a vow of pacifism — out of sheer spite, mind you, but he sticks to it for the rest of the fic.
- Damien is a horrid little shit of a psychopath who unnecessarily murders countless people and wants to torture Stephanie Brown into an obedient servant. However, he doesn't really do enough to make him stand out compared to Cain's abuse; explicitly doesn't know the extent of Harmonia and Nemesis' plans; and may have agency issues.
- Talia falls in love with Black Manta and raises a daughter as a normal person.
- Harmonia has a legitimate Freudian Excuse.
Think he's an easy keep. Thoughts?
Cynthia's New Kimono!
to the Dweller. If more of its motivations and heinous acts were shown instead of implied, then it would have been a different story.
Cautious ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to David.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Out of curiosity, what's Harmonia's Freudian Excuse?
As for David...I dunno. It seems like the bombs that would kill 175,000 aren't set by him, but by the minions. Wait, is he one of the minions? I'm unclear.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lies and Violence!
Sorry, yes, he's one of the minions along with Damien and Jason, and seems to be the dominant one. Will get into Harmonia with Nemesis.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Sep 17th 2021 at 7:07:54 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So he's 1/3 that tries to kill thousands, plus is an Abusive Parent on top of that? I'll give a cautious yes.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Professor Gigachad
Dweller.
When it comes to Shang Chi there is another thing that should probably be disscused how we will be handling Abomination. Since he gained a redeeming quality in the film but only his novelization version counts due to a lowered heinous standard. I remember we have the rule when it comes to these kind of adaptations which meant that Film!Count Olaf was disqualified, I am not sure how this case will be handled.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Lies and Violence!
Technically 1/2, Jason's been completely Mind Raped at this point.
The Candidate
The aforementioned Nemesis is the Greek Goddess of Grudges, Blood Feuds, and the Unjustly Slain — also a minor Wonder Woman villain. Years ago she created the "Army of Nemesis," an unkillable stone army that would gain a soldier for each life they took and would not stop until everyone is dead. Harmonia told the other Olympians about this, with even Ares horrified by its potential for destruction. Zeus killed her and hid the Stone the army would spawn from.
Unfortunately! Due to... uh... reasons, Harmonia can see into the multiverse and comprehend all the differences between the infinite earths. This drives her insane, so she seeks to find the Stone in order to raise the army and slaughter everything across the multiverse, hoping this will give her peace.
Of course, she needs Nemesis to actually use the Stone. After an attempt to resurrect her fails, Harmonia decides to just absorb her corpse and take her memories for herself. This... backfires, to say the least, as Nemesis proceeds to possess her. Jason Todd, pissed because he just found out the Joker died and the only reason he was helping her was so he could kill him, yells at who he thinks is Harmonia... only to realize his mistake too late. Nemesis reveals she's their new boss, proceeding to inflict Jason with horrible visions of the Joker torturing and murdering him.
She's like, really petty. Jason tries to get drunk at a bar, but Nemesis fills his mind with more visions and forces him to massacre the innocents there. She thinks about how she'd love to keep torturing him, but currently has bigger fish to fry.
Speaking of! Wonder Woman and Batwoman confront her. They fight and Nemesis tricks Wonder Woman into killing her/Harmonia, the latter's death activating the stone. It becomes pretty clear what her plan was:
- Harmonia's dead, so she's gotten revenge on the one who betrayed her.
- The army will kill all life on earth.
- With no worshippers, the Olympians will all die.
- With no invincible army, the multiverse will stay intact and all the other Harmonias who suffer from the same condition as this one in other universes will be trapped in their insanity.
The army is eventually taken out by Swamp-Thing, but not before killing about 377 innocents and 48 superheroes, the most noteworthy being Aquaman, Miss Martian, Stargirl, Mary Marvel, and Beast Boy.
Heinous Standard and Mitigating Factors
A bit of a step down from multiversal destruction, but killing all life on earth I'd say is still bad.
And no mitigating factors, she's just evil.
The Moron
Yes to David and Nemesis
And correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the Count Olaf example isn't what happened here. There, the series began as a book series, so putting up the film version that intended to get to the point in the books where he'd get his redeeming quality and just didn't get there is kinda cheating. Here, that Abomination is in the novelization of a single movie, and there's no reason to attach this movie to a completely unrelated adaptation of another movie. He stays, rather simple.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Sep 17th 2021 at 10:27:55 AM
David & Nemesis
Didn’t the book version of Blonsky have some additional crimes?
@Ordeaux, @STARCRUSHER, @nwo Yeah, whether or not Abomination is any different in the novelization (which I haven't read), it's clear it was written BEFORE his role in Shang-Chi was ever conceived. It’d be unfair to cut it for the similar but different reasons it'd be unfair to keep the film version of Olaf. It's clear this version even if not redeemed is being reformed or rehabilitated by Wong though without question.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 17th 2021 at 7:33:21 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Nemesis. So Harmonia's FE is her being Driven to Madness?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lies and Violence!
Pretty much.
Cynthia's New Kimono!
to Nemesis.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So, with Ordeaux's input, here's Shinnok (and a slight tweak for Quan Chi):
- Legends has Quan Chi and Shinnok:
- Scorpion's Revenge: Quan Chi is a powerful sorcerer and the highest-ranking servant of the Mad God Shinnok. Taking over the Netherrealm after Shinnok was imprisoned by the Elder Gods, Quan Chi keeps the realm as a hellish nightmare, where countless people get tortured for eternity. Hatching a plan to free Shinnok, Quan Chi impersonated Sub-Zero and led the Lin Kuei to slaughter the whole clan of Shirai Ryu, personally killing the wife and child of Hanzo Hasashi, aka Scorpion. Promising to resurrect Hanzo's family in exchange for the key to release Shinnok, Quan Chi sent him undercover to the Mortal Kombat tournament to act as his champion, and when Scorpion failed him by choosing to kill Sub-Zero instead, Quan Chi taunted him by revealing that he was the one who destroyed his family and clan.
- Battle of the Realms: Shinnok, the Mad God himself, is the true ruler of the Neatherrealm. In the past, he was sealed away by the Elder Gods and, as revenge, plans to merge the realms and end existence. Shinnok threatens to flay Scorpion alive and bring him back to do it again if he does not cooperate. When Scorpion escapes, Shinnok hires the Lin Kuei to make sure that Scorpion gets the final piece of Kamidogu, needed to awaken the One Being. The Lin Kuei Grandmaster is horrified to discover this and tries to stop him, though in vain as Shinnok's demons murder him along with Sektor, Cyrax, and Smoke. Shinnok then summons the One Being, merges with him, and beings to merge all the realms together to destroy them all.
Edited by ACW on Sep 17th 2021 at 10:52:14 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
No to the Dweller. I'd have loved to propose it (And will check the comic one) but the demon without dialogue and without the proper deeds...not seeing it.
Yes to David and thanks for Ravok for helping me here...introducing one of my all-time favorite baddies from Vampire the Masquerade: Ambrosio Luis Moncada.
Who is Moncada?
A powerful member of the Lasombra clan and one of the single most powerful of all the Sabbat, both in terms of political and martial might, Moncada was a man of absolute faith in the clergy as a human, unshakable in it which was a conundrum for some so used to the corrupt clergy. After a short debate, Moncada was sired by Sylvester de Ruiz and immediately set out to rise in the Lasombra clan, to not seek power over the puppets, but the puppet masters. Through a network of priests and clergy, his influence swiftly grew....Moncada was a chief architect in the rise of the Sabbat and the resulting revolt....centuries after his embrace, Moncada organized a coup and killed de Ruiz (probably diablerizing him), kicking off the Anarch revolt. Through it, he was also something of a creepy mentor figure to none other than Vykos.
I would be remiss not to discuss Moncada's faith...unlike many whose faith is broken by the Embrace, Moncada's...wasn't. It remained as strong as ever. But it evolved into something twisted. Moncada did not believe in salvation: he was damned irrevocably. But that, too, was god's will. He was damned and by God, he was going to earn it. As a spiritual anchor for many vampires, he is responsible for promoting atrocity after atrocity. For a guy who rarely, if ever, leaves his church in Madrid? Not bad.
Now, in the 1100s, Moncada met the most important person in his life: Lucita, princess of Aragon whose father had tired of her willfulness and thought the church could tame her. Unfortunately, they chose Moncada...he became entranced with Lucita, and soon Embraced her. Lucita soon ran from her Sire, who cheerily bid her farewell, with the two meeting irregularly after...Moncada patiently biding his time, viewing her as his daughter while having a disturbing lust for her as well, something that freaks Lucita the hell out.
Flash forward centuries of chilling in his church, playing chess frequently, doing Sabbat things and Moncada proceeds to architect the whole Sabbat war on the East Coast, planning it out and kicking it off while instituting his plots: dispatching the Lasombra assassin Talley as a bodyguard, Moncada also sends Vykos with strict orders to get stuff done and do their worst, while plotting to lure Lucita back...to this end, he has Vykos secretly hire Lucita to assassinate a Sabbat archbishop, knowing she'll figure it out and go to tell Moncada...and also screwing over the war effort so Moncada can let the Sabbat be slaughtered while he eventually rolls in to conquer the US himself and then sweeps over the world...having mastered powers of the Abyss and the shadows therein.
Taking Lucita hostage, when she refuses to play into Moncada's fantasies of a happy reunion, he beats her unconscious (not the first time he does this either) while screaming bible verses, all wile plotting the rise of the Leviathan, his beast...
Now, Lucita is rescued by her frenemy Fatima al-Faqadi, of a vampire assassin clan, leading to a battle with Moncada, who tries to kill Fatmina and Lucita, unleashing the Leviathan on the former...but Fatima, having slept with Lucita and exchanged blood recently? The Leviathan recognizes Moncada's blood in her (As Lucita and her sire share blood) and is so confused it turns back on Moncada, devouring his soul as he crumbles to dust, screaming all the way with his soul borne to the Abyss
Heinousness?
Moncada is nasty as hell. He's the architect of the East Coast War, is planning to screw over the Sabbat to make the war worse so he can sweep in, clean up and do the same to the world. He's been responsible for the rise of the Sabbat, sanctions Vykos to do their thing...
Yeah, Moncada is as bad as it gets, no mistake. Now, Vampire is pitch black as we all know but for his tier, Moncada is someone who inspires countless others to be their worst with his twisted spiritual guidance and seeks some seriously grim goals.
Mitigating issues?
Now, the reason Moncada is one of my favorites...he's a remarkably three dimensional villain. Moncada believes wholeheartedly in God. more than that, he believes he's been Embraced according to God's plan. His fanaticism takes on a nightmarish turn though in that he believes if he's damned, he better be the worst he can be and earn the worst damnation possible.
Moncada is also fully capable of being friendly. He loves presenting as a kindly father figure, a mentor, he's usually a great boss. Talley remarks if he abandons the job, Moncada will be disappointed, tell him to do an act of repentance but then just ask what he thinks of his latest chess move. He's friendly with a Lasombra named Ibrahim he's known for centuries he plays chess with...
Aaaaand Moncada will order the deaths of people who've served him centuries without batting an eyelash. Ibrahim goes missing and he doesn't remotely care. Talley worries in the confessional booth he's in very real danger from Moncada, who's rumored to occasionally crush failed servitors to death with shadows there.
And Lucita...Moncada's relationship with her is twisted. He calls her his daughter but he has a clear and sickening lust for her, which is the one thing to freak Lucita out in the world. But when she defies him after he's waited so long? Moncada flips out on her rants at her with bible verses and beats her unconscious. He does this about twice and when Lucita makes her final defiance known by attacking him with Fatima, he screams "may the gates of hell open wide for you" and tries to kill her.
Conclusion?
A yea to the Cardinal.
Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 17th 2021 at 7:55:26 AM
Messenger from another dimension.
Yes to Cardinal. No to the Dweller but I you know guys? Maybe we will get a tie-in comic or some other supplementary material that will flesh Dweller out! We will see!
Also, I am in Russia currently and local theaters already released Dune here. I am seeing it tomorrow; so excited!
Edited by emperors on Sep 17th 2021 at 11:03:26 AM
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Moncada...that Leviathan's not very smart ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Ultimate Moral Compass
David, Nemesis, and Moncada
Goku Black
Moncada
dweller in darkness.
David, Nemesis and Moncada. to the Dweller-in-Darkness.
It's a primordial shadow entity that senses Kindred vitae, you can't expect much more
Yeah, worth the discussion certainly. Plenty of times we talk about characters like Bats (at the time because we did eventually approve him actually) and Baroness von Hellman who seemed like ideal candidates only to clearly not be quite there.
The Scar Snout comparison I made in my previous post is very apt if you ask me.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 17th 2021 at 6:06:00 AM