During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I did Naruse before and I'm fine there.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Fine meaning okay with my additions?
I will say in fairness that the vast majority of the time Ellen's been up we weren't aware of the book's existence.
It was (claimed) to be part of the original effort post but I'm not going to dwell on that, this is going in the right direction and I'd rather focus on that.
Also, I'm going to rewrite the Black Cat demon since I think it could be tightened and "The aforementioned" now isn't needed (I know I said I had a point to bring up on him but I see it was mentioned at the end of his EP when he was voted on):
- The Witch's House: The black cat demon is a soul-eating monster who happened upon the abused Ellen after she killed her parents, devouring the deceased's souls and corrupting Ellen into becoming his latest witch. Convincing Ellen she would never be loved by anyone and promising to cure her illness for bringing him souls, the demon spends centuries molding her and consumes countless while leaving the tortured spirits to wander within the titular house forever. Sadistically suggesting Ellen maim herself before swapping bodies with Viola, the demon eats the crippled Viola's soul later on after Ellen has her killed.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 15th 2020 at 12:23:02 PM
RIP Toriyama
Yeah, cut Ellen post-haste. The disqualifying features sound stacked heavily against CM, and even if she's depicted as a purely monstrous character in the original game, the canon prequel seems to firmly showcase disqualifying features galore.
Keep the black cat demon boi though, and I greatly approve of the rewrite, 43!
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Okay cut Ellen
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
take care Bullman
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 15th 2020 at 6:54:31 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Actually. I have an announcement. I'm going to take a break from the thread and the site for a while. I will get to the rewrite when I get back. I feel like I'm overloaded with this trope right now, and my mental health is not in the best shape either. So I don't know when I will be back, hopefully no more than a month, but this is not goodbye.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 15th 2020 at 11:41:58 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Sorry to hear that Bull. Do take care, you'll be missed!
Ultimate Moral Compass
Take care Bull.
Also yeah, cut Ellen. Shame, but at least we still have the black cat.
"No running in the halls!"
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Semimaru and Pale Lady. Cut Ellen.
Take care, Bullman.
The Lord Of Walruses
to Genzou, Semimaru and Pale Lady. Cut Ellen.
Brad is in drafts.
Take care Bullman.
I have no idea what I am doing
Genzou, Semimaru and Pale Lady
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Ellen
Take care Bullman and mir
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Pale Lady.
Cut Ellen.
For ''Hellboy', for Herman, Drax thinks we should link to his debut, and I'm inclined to agree. Like so:
- Herman von Klempt, debuting in the second Hellboy story, is a Nazi scientist with an inability to stay dead, even after having been reduced to little more than a head in a jar. Herman von Klempt attempts to resurrect an old Nazi project to wipe out America with slaughterous vampires; tries to take out the spinal fluid of young peasant girls in his first meeting with Hellboy; and conducts terrifying experiments on hundreds in the depths of an old prison in Brazil. Herman von Klempt reaches his full streak of evil upon pledging his service to the Ogdru Jahad; von Klempt manipulates his daughter into unearthing an apocalyptic beast known as the Conqueror Worm to devour all humanity, first feeding all of her soldiers to the beast and wickedly transforming his own granddaughter into a misshapen beast to watch as he reduces the Earth to a scorched tinder and hands it over to the Ogdru Jahad.
Also, after talking to Scraggle about Manga!Drakonis, a slight re-potholing:
- Legend of Mana manga, by Shiro Amano: Emperor Drakonis is a cruel, megalomaniacal dragon banished to the underworld for his cruel designs on the world. Playing on the desperation of the fallen warrior Larc to reunite with his sister, Drakonis makes Larc his servant and through him slaughters the dragons who initially stopped him to return to the world of the living. When Larc confronts him on this, Drakonis painfully transforms him into a horrible beast, loosing him on his own sister and hysterically laughing when Larc is forcefully put down as a result. With his physical form attained again, Drakonis intends to devour the souls of all in existence, scouring both the souls of those alive and in the underworld to sate his lust for power.
Edited by ACW on Apr 16th 2020 at 2:30:14 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
RIP Keiji Fujiwara. He played at least 1 CM: Ali Al-Saachez.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
R.I.P. Keiji Fujiwara...
Cut Ellen, which leads me to the necessity of re-evaluating two of my own candidates (I planned to deal with one of them earlier, but then I utterly forgot) : Les traces du passé's Sister Jeanne Belanger and Echoes's Warlord.
After Tokimassa's downvote... I'm honestly not comfortable with Sister Jeanne Belanger staying. As I mentioned in the EP, "De la Courbillère gives us heavy description about her character in the one scene where she's relevant". However, kinda like Tokimassa, the one scene where she's relevant is a letter. She doesn't appears herself in the whole story. Evidence-wise, the evidence for Jeanne's crimes are the ghosts themselves (she's even the main motivation for their crimes), all of whom are her victims. When the Weiss sisters promise to reveal the truth about Jeanne, the ghosts instantly stop attacking them. However, in comparison, I believe that Tokimassa had more evidence going for him. Since he was still downvoted, I'm not comfortable with Jeanne staying. However, I'm going to leave her case up to you guys.
Next re-evaluation, The Warlord. Now, looking back at my EP, I believe that I fucked up several times in the Freudian Excuse section. First, I believe I downplayed the extent of how bad it is, notably by comparing it to other characters' FEs which, in my opinion, aren't as bad (it's an all around weak argument on top of that, saying that X is Pure Evil because both he and Y went through the same thing, but Y didn't became as bad). The Warlord was essentially mind-raped by a hundred clones' memories, which plays a big part in him turning evil. That is fucked, even if it's his own fault for overusing the Shadow Clone technique. Years after the whole thing, the Warlord still needs to store part of his memories in clones to prevent a memory overload. However... Even after that, the Warlord remained a genuine Well-Intentioned Extremist. But upon finally succeeding in killing his former friends and impose peace on his world... He chose to destroy it out of boredom. Not insanity. Boredom. Then he chose to wipe out a hundred worlds with Naruto on it For the Evulz and because he thought the other Narutos reduced his value, but this goal was in no way linked to his insanity. Then he rejected redemption.
So, the Warlord is a tough case. On one part, his Freudian Excuse is Nightmare Fuel incarnate and clearly played a big part in him becoming evil. But on another part, he willingly became worse and abandoned his redeeming qualities, without any moral agency or Freudian Excuse explaining or justifying his choices. I'm leaning keep, but I can see why people would like to cut him after reading that. I'm going to leave his case up to you, again.
That being said, I apologize for fucking up in these two EPs ...
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Apr 16th 2020 at 3:51:02 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Showtime!
Based on that, I'm fine with the Warlord staying up, because it seems like his Freudian Excuse is separate from his Complete Monster status
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Can't really vote either way on Jeanne, but I'm comfortable with keeping the Warlord. As far as I'm concerned a Freudian Excuse only goes so far and if he's happily destroying worlds out of boredom, I think he's way past the point where his backstory justifies his crimes.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
And what's your opinion on Jeanne?
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Apr 16th 2020 at 3:29:17 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Showtime!
Seems worth cutting Jeanne
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
I'd honestly say keep both Jeanne and the Warlord, Warlord for reasons already stated, and Jeanne because I'm inclined to give leniency for a character being solely described if the medium does not allow for visuals (i.e. Jeanne's description would be the equivalent of a flashback in a movie).
Definitely cut Ellen, though.
Take care, Bullman.
The stalker does appear; the protagonist sees his dead body. Dathan's the name of the protagonist, not the stalker.
Edited by falcontalons on Apr 16th 2020 at 7:05:34 AM
Gotta day no to Jeanne, a written medium could still have had a flashback to the actual character. As it stands we’ve got deeds but no villain.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Does "Dathan" ever appear, or just in letters?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Well we see his body at the end embracing the corpse of the boy he kidnapped and lead to death...
Speaking of additional crimes, having watched, and loved, the Shangri La anime (seriously, a great work of Feminist Fantasy), I would like to alter the Ryoko Naruse writeup to include some things left out:
Edited by MasterN on Apr 15th 2020 at 9:46:14 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.