Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Re: child CMs, there's also Luke Lerner from Better Watch Out
Yes to Donald and Bleylock.
I don't want to be a downer, but this small talk on child CM is one of those off topic things brought up about the old thread. I genuinely don't care as I think it can foster a more friendly atmosphere, but this is one of the habits we got in trouble with before.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
The Draftsman of Doom
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Donnie and Bleylock
Ok, on a bit of a Stephen King kick here, let's talk one of his most popular film adaptations and the sequel...Stanley Kubrick's The Shining and Mike Flanagan's Doctor Sleep.
The Overlook.
What is the Overlook Hotel? What has it done?
The Overlook Hotel is an Eldritch Location par excellence, and while in The Shining alone, the Overlook's status as a sentient entity is left somewhat ambiguous and unclear, in Doctor Sleep? The Hotel's existence is made clear: it is a Genius Loci that feeds on "steam" (energy) of those who "shine" (psychic abilities).
- Built in the early 1900s, supposedly on Indian burial grounds, the Overlook has let its evil infest the land and tormenting those who stay in its presence for long periods. The Overlook targets those with shine inside them, corrupting them and driving them into debauchery and violence, and those who die on the hotel grounds are kept present and haunting the halls by the Overlook's sheer will, feeding on their steam to empower itself.
- In one notable case in the 70s, the Overlook drove the winter caretaker Grady mad, and he wound up butchering his wife and twin daughters before ending his own life.
- Come the film itself, the Torrance family—Jack, Wendy, and their son Danny—stay at the Overlook as caretakers over the winter. Isolated, the Overlook begins tormenting the family, using the ghosts of those trapped in its walls to terrorize and harm them, seeking to claim Danny's immensely powerful shine for itself. Eventually speaking directly to Jack through the face of Grady, encouraging Jack to "correct" his wife and son while driving him to break his sobriety, the Overlook corrupts Jack into taking an axe and trying to murder his wife and young son, killing familial ally Dick Halloran in the process.
- As Danny tricks Jack into a hedge maze to freeze to death in the wintry night and escape with Wendy, the Overlook embraces Jack into itself as another victimized ghost, cursed to stay inside its halls forever. The Overlook was shut down soon after all this bloodshed and fell into a dormant state, waiting until shine once more encroached upon its doors...
- ...and so enter Doctor Sleep. A now-adult Dan and the even more powerful shining child Abra come to the Overlook to lure the evil Rose into a trap and feed her to the Overlook. Dan's entry sees the Overlook awaken from its slumber and use an image of Dan's dad Jack to taunt him, trying to get him to break his sobriety and hand Abra over to the Overlook, encouraging Dan to then step back and "accept the things you can't change."
- Now, Dan is at first able to resist the Overlook and ultimately unleashes all the ghosts he had sealed away onto Rose to defeat her...only for the Overlook's influence to take hold, devouring Rose's steam and empowering it to possess Dan. "Hello, Danny. Come and play with us...forever."
- Possessing Danny and using him in a horrible mimicry of his father, shambling around with an axe chasing young Abra around the building, the Overlook confronts and directly mocks Abra over how "bad" she's been, and tries to murder her with the axe to claim her steam, only for Dan to push through the control long enough to urge Abra to flee, having set the boilers to overload and burn the Overlook down. And though the panicking, fearful Overlook possesses Dan once more and tries to save itself by turning off the boiler, Dan holds it back long enough for the damage to be done and the hotel to burn down for good.
Mitigating features?
So, the main issue has always been if the Overlook is too ambiguous as an entity, which is absolutely valid in The Shining alone...but between both films? It's made clear: the Overlook is a sentient Genius Loci that devours steam to power itself and trap people inside it as ghosts to keep a never-ending "party" going because it's power hungry and sadistic.
It uses the likes of Grady and Jack to speak directly to others and torment them with its Faux Affably Evil attitude, and most prominently? The Overlook directly acts and speaks to Abra as Dan at the end when she sees through all its guises and attempts to play as Dan, calling it a "mask", to which the Overlook gleefully chuckles and says, in a voice of its own, "Mask's off, then." Abra further taunts the Overlook by saying it "doesn't know where it is standing right now" in reference to Dan's power, and the Overlook proudly snarls "I know these halls like my own face, child." and in its final moments, the Overlook is plainly terrified of the fact that Dan has set it up to die, and fearfully tries to save itself before Dan regains control and dooms it.
Agency isn't an issue, either: there's a stray mention that it was possibly built on Indian burial grounds, but nothing is ever offered up as a reason the place is what it is. It's "cancer", in Abra's words, and it's portrayed as a willfully evil Eldritch Location.
Heinousness?
Its main competition would be Rose and her True Knot, a gang of shine hunters who roam the world looking for those with shine—usually children—and kill them to steal it. But the Overlook ultimately pulls an Eviler than Thou on Rose and asserts why it's the greatest threat of both films. It is behind the deaths and entrapment of dozens of souls inside itself, bent to its will and performing acts of violence and depravity, using them to influence guests and drive them to join its ranks of souls so it can devour their steam. It drove Grady mad and had him annihilate his entire family, then tries the same with Jack, and when it returns in the sequel to pull a Hijacked by Ganon on Rose, it attempts to use Dan to butcher the child Abra and absorb her steam for its own power.
Final Verdict?
With it all taken into account, the Overlook should land.
Edited by Ravok on Mar 30th 2023 at 9:22:09 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I'm gonna say yes, but are we just talking about the films or the book version as well?
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
The Overlook
RIP Toriyama
This proposal is just for the films, the issue with the books' take is not only the much higher heinous standard but also that IIRC in the OG Shining it's not as clear what the Overlook's nature is, and the Overlook doesn't have the presence and appearance in the book of Doctor Sleep as opposed to the movie where it pulls a Hijacked by Ganon to become the Final Boss.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Lizzid people!
Overlook Hotel.
Lies and Violence!
Yes to the Overlook.
What's the work?
Agent Elvis is a fucking acid trip of a show, starring Elvis Presley himself and his secret double life as a spy for "The Central Bureau", a shadowy government organization that employs celebrities as undercover operatives to keep the world safe.
The Big Bad doesn't count, as he blames Elvis for his father's death. Said father was an uber-religious nut who burned/drowned to death trying to destroy some Elvis records, so... obviously that vendetta is stupid, but he blames him nonetheless. But who does count?
Who is Robert Goulet?
Elvis' Sitcom Arch-Nemesis of the music world, Goulet was the former Number Two of TCB. Years before the start of the show, the organization noticed Elvis' hypnotic sway over his audience and sought to control this power. As such, they horrifically tortured him to create a device that would allow them to weaponize his music into mind control. Unfortunately, the mind controlees were uncontrollable; the device reverted them to feral, primal instincts, driving them to an unstoppable, murderous rage. The project was shut down, and Elvis had his memory erased.
Until, some years later, TCB's commander decides to recruit Elvis back into the organization. Goulet, already despising Elvis for all his success at music, decides he's had enough of being overshadowed by the King and plots revenge. He steals the mind control device and gives it to the Big Bad, leading to several public massacres as they test it throughout the country. Goulet himself tries to set it off at several Elvis concerts, culminating in their ultimate plot.
At the filming of Elvis' Aloha from Hawaii, the first concert in history to be broadcast globally, Goulet and the Big Bad plan to hook the mind control device up to the broadcast satellite, causing bloody massacres throughout the world to the tune of Elvis' music and forever damning his reputation. Elvis, obviously, stops them, defeating Goulert in a battle in the middle of a volcano.
Mitigating qualities?
Nah. He's a petty, egotistical jerk responsible for pretty much everything in the series due to giving the Big Bad the mind control device.
Based on the EP, to the Overlook. Good job of course Ravok.
Thank you to TBNY as well for your EP on the book version. It wasn't in vain.
Two weeks have now passed since Shazam!: Fury of the Gods came out. Scraggle and Yam, you may proceed when ready.
Good job to Demon Duck for the recent MGD-style catch-up too.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 30th 2023 at 9:20:54 AM
Overlook Hotel
Lizzid people!
Will wait for others to weigh in on that Agent Elvis one. Sounds a little too surreal, but I'll withhold voting until someone vouches for it.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Overlook and I think Robert Goulet
What helps the Overlook with Heinous concerns against the True Knot IMO is the simple thing, they can travel about. The Overlook is confined there.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Lies and Violence!
Thank you, Austin (and flannel), for at the very least acknowledging my post. Yes, the premise is definitely surreal, and it's for the most part a comedy, but the overarching story has enough seriousness to it that I think the setting is conductive for candidates. The past torture/experimentation plotline is definitely played for genuine pathos and drama, and while the Big Bad's whole deal is intentionally too petty/stupid to take seriously (and he's also played by Kieran Culkin, make what you will of that), the scheme itself is, again, treated more than serious enough, especially with Goulet as the one most involved.
RIP Toriyama
Honestly with what episodes I've seen of Elvis, I'm happy to give him a Yes. Good work on a bizarre work, Emerald
@Wet: Huh, that's actually a good point I didn't even consider when comparing the Overlook to the True Knot, even though it should have been obvious lmao. Well done! ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Yes to Overlook Hoteland I guess yeah for Robert Goulet too given the explanation. Though I must say... how exactly can you make a real life actor or political figure into a monster? We've rejected Bernie Sanders as a Complete Monster for being too surreal.
Edited by Klavice on Mar 30th 2023 at 10:11:14 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Ultimate Moral Compass
Goulet
Lies and Violence!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't know if I was around for that, but a.) a depiction of a currently alive person is probably in bad taste, and b.) Bernie would probably be more surreal because he's a walking source of memes for some I reason I don't want to understand.
Not the Eye
to the evil hotel and guy from secret agent Elvis show.
God I love that I am not suprised by saying that
Goku Black
evil overlook hotel and Goulet (first for Ed Helms?)
Just a quick question: Tomorrow is April Fools Day, are we allowed to make April Fools CM proposals? Y’know just for shits and giggles?
Switching to yes on Hollander given Polar's additional info and a yes to Andy, Coyolxauhqui and Brother Upton, Donald "Donnie" and Bleylock.
Edited by Klavice on Mar 30th 2023 at 6:55:56 AM