Duplicate Trope: Aggressive Submissive

Both Aggressive Submissive and Powerful People Are Subs are about the same thing: Characters who use sex as an opportunity to be markedly different than they are in their usual life. Their sexual behavior being an inversion of their regular behavior, an outlet for a usually submerged facet of themselves, respite from their usual self.

The pages do make a distinction: Aggressive Submissive is about assertive personalities while Powerful People Are Subs is about people who are in charge as a job. But I think this distinction is negligible, and they're really talking about the same general concept.

I didn't really know how to do a wick page for a duplicate trope submission, and the responses I got when I asked were rather contractionary. But, hey, an attempt was made and it's here: Sandbox.Aggressive Submissive Wick Check

I don't really like the current name of either page. Ideally I'd like to rename it to a new name (something like Bedroom Role Reversal ?) that is clearer. But I know people are generally resistant to name changes. If we are going to keep one of the two names, I'd leave that to someone else, I don't have a vote, I don't like either.

Edited by Eievie on Jan 5th 2023 at 4:26:51 AM

Changed the thread tag to point to one trope for convenience's sake.

Macron's notes

Aggressive Submissive has 236 wicks, the wick check only checked 25/50 and all but one are used correctly. And Powerful People Are Subs doesn't even have a wick check.

I'd favor merging, but, are the grounds okay?

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Well, we could wick check Powerful People Are Subs too.

Sandbox.Powerful People Are Subs Wick Check <— if anyone wants to do it.

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I also have an issue with the wick check. Looking at it, many of the examples for PPAS that are stated to be just as good an example for AS in fact lack the context that would make them a good example.

For example,

• (#3) Jason X: The sleazy college professor is not only shown to be seduced by one of his students in exchange for a higher grade, but dresses up as a woman and engages in submissive roleplay.
• (#7) Cryptonomicon: An extremely wealthy character known only as "The Dentist" opposes the protagonists because he is a submissive under the control of his Filipino dominatrix wife, who in turn takes orders from conspirators opposing the protagonists' attempt to recover gold stolen by Those Wacky Nazis and create an Internet data haven.

Neither of these examples state that the submissive is an aggressive person or has an aggressive personality. The professor is described as "sleazy" but sleazy is closer to "immoral" than it is to "aggressive". I don't know, with PPAS not being checked at all and AS only checking half the minimum wicks, I'd rather wait until another wick check is done.

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If I may, my understanding of these two tropes has always been thus:

Aggressive Submissive: someone who is aggressive in their pursuit of love ends up being the more submissive partner when they finally end up in the sack

Powerful People Are Subs: people who wield a lot of power and/or influence (political or otherwise) like to be dominated in the sack.

So, to me, they're only similar in how they prefer to be treated in bed. Where, if anywhere, am I going wrong?

My troper wall

I think that's actually the correct understanding of the two tropes. You can be a passive, not all that involved CEO that likes to be dominated in bed and fall under PPAS and not AS; conversely, anyone who isn't a CEO can be aggressively flirtatious but demure in bed. They aren't really the same at all.

ETA: And looking at the wick check, none of the examples of Powerful People Are Subs that you have listed would fit as written into Aggressive Submissive.

Edited by amathieu13 on Jan 6th 2023 at 5:49:32 AM

Aggressive Submissive and PPAS are NOT duplicates at all. Why? Because, like everyone has said before, AS is about personality traits/behavior contradicting someone's preferred sexual role, while PPAS is about social position not being a marker of sexual preference/sexual dominance. The former may cause embarrassment if became known, but PPAS would be scandalous for the person in power involved because it's that big of a deal. They're distinct enough to warrant their own tropes in many ways.

for merging the two. The wick check doesn't prove your point, and disliking a trope's name isn't a good argument to rename it.

Edited by selkies on Jan 6th 2023 at 2:35:48 PM

I'm not voting until the wick check is finished (if it is at all).

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

I suppose I can see that both tropes share the idea of "A character you wouldn't expect to be sexually submissive actually is" but I'm unsure if that's enough for a merge, as other tropes pointed out, the reason for it does differ.

No WC = no vote from me. Also, disliking a name, as stated earlier, is never a valid reason for TRS.

Edited by Berrenta on Jan 6th 2023 at 5:36:48 AM

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

So from what other tropers have said:

Aggressive Submissive: A person who is brash and aggressive in their advances become more demure when they are in bed or with idea of love and/or sex.

Powerful People Are Subs: A person in a high position of authority (a president, a boss etc.) who prefers to be dominated in bed.

Is my thinking correct?

She/Her | Currently cleaning N/A

Yeah, basically. I can see both being similar, and maybe there's a missing supertrope for "Bedroom Role Reversal", but the actual tropes here aren't one and the same.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I finished the wick check for PPAS.

Quick results:

• 2/45 wicks overlap with Aggressive Submissive, or 4%.
• 28/45 wicks don't overlap with AS, or 62%.
• 15/45 wicks are ZCEs, misuse, or unclear, which make 33% of the results.

Final verdict: Aggressive Submissive and Powerful People Are Subs don't overlap or are confused for each other that much. The majority of the wicks are correct and valid examples of PPAS only and don't fit AS.

Waiting for more opinions, tho.

---

Edit: After moving the warden example into another folder, the results now are:

• 2/45 wicks overlap with Aggressive Submissive, or 4%.
• 29/45 wicks don't overlap with AS, or 64%.
• 14/45 wicks are ZCEs, misuse, or unclear, which make 31% of the results.

Edited by selkies on Jan 6th 2023 at 5:25:31 PM

The only thing I'd say is that 2 of the examples in unclear/zce I'd actually put under correct.

For The Losers example, a warden may not be a person of an extraordinary high position, but they have immense control and power over prisoners and wardens abusing their power is very common. There are gradations to being a powerful person (CEO, regional manager, department manager/section chief) and I think they'd all qualify.

For The Authority, he may not be in a position of power, but the character is a semi-all powerful being like Superman. He is literally powerful, as in he himself wields immense power, rather than it coming from a position he occupies. Though, a convo can be had on whether that qualifies (I think it does)

Ok, I agree on the warden example being valid. But regarding the superhero Apollo, PPAS is vague on what exactly a "powerful person" means. Does it include supernaturally powerful characters, or is it exclusive to people in certain positions of power? I don't see a point in this trope not being broad enough to include examples of the former case, but maybe the creator had only people with a high position in mind when creating the trope.

I think it's about authority figures.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I was involved with the TLP for Powerful People Are Subs. It's meant to be positions of power, not superpowers.

Great job with the wick check selkies! Since there isn't really any overlap I think the two concepts should stay separate. A quick cleanup might be in order but otherwise I don't think there's really anything else to do.

As a side note, I'm familiar with the Dragon Age: Inquisition example and I'll note:

1. The Inquisitor is an example.
2. Dorian is zig-zagged. He's an Altus (high-born mage) and a Magister's (basically a senator) son to boot, but his power is limited to Tevinter (the game takes place in Ferelden and Orlais) so he can throw weight in some war table missions but that's it. In the Trespasser DLC he's gone back to Tevinter and taken over his father's position in the Magisterium.

I can go ahead and expand and fix the indentation now. Kinda fun when you see a work you're familiar with on a wick check.

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The wick check is provided, and it appears these are distinct tropes without too much overlap or misuse. Is there anything to keep the thread open when the clock runs out?

Edited by Amonimus on Jan 7th 2023 at 12:35:56 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

perhaps adding to the description of Powerful People Are Subs that by "powerful" it means positions of authority only. But other than that, can't see what else needs to be done

Please go ahead and do so.

I added a line that clarifies the scope of the trope.

I might make a draft for Bedroom Role Reversal, but the thread doesn't rely on launching a trope, nor it is that important to launch the super-trope right now (I also have other drafts I want to create first). But yeah other than that, there's nothing to be done here.

So, since there doesn't seem to be a problem here, should we close this?

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