Complete Monster Cleanup

Ask ~MGD 107, I think, W.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 20th 2022 at 3:21:42 PM

Alright so I am not totally sure how this is going to turn out but this has been bothering me for the longest time and I don't want it to go unaddressed at the very least. So out of the currently approved villains on the Sonic the Hedgehog there is one I currently have some problems with that being Dr. Finitevus from the Archie Comics series.

• Dr. Finitevus was once a fellow scientist of a race of prosperous echidnas, until a freak accident changed his looks and intelligence. Despite his newfound genius, he was declared mentally unstable and was to be put down. He escaped and later sold out his home to Dr. Robotnik, resulting in everyone who had once lived there dying later. In addition, Finitevus manipulated four whole sides in a war—Dingoes, Echidnas, and two Dark Legion factions—into providing the fuel for the fire of his master plan, which is him deciding the world is hopelessly corrupt and wanting to purify it...in fire. He, to this end, manipulated Dimitri, a head in a jar, into providing secrets and information, and then manipulated Knux into becoming Knuxerjak and starting a battle with his former friends after the whole corruption from power thing. Finitevus's expression at the scene where Knux becomes Enerjak shows he is not only mad, but completely delighted, even as his betrayed allies watch on and denounce him.

Now it is pretty easy to tell that Dr. Finitevus is a very nasty bastard and easily fits the heinousness aspect. However, what I would like to question him on are potential agency problems. The writeup mentions that he was once a benevolent scientist part of the Echidna tribe until a lab accident changed him and he ended up turning evil. That alone was already making me really concerned about him but the more I looked into it the more concerned I became.

Dr. Finitevus was once a benevolent scientist who was working on Knuckles. At one point◊, Knuckles had lost control of his chaos powers and Finitevus attempted to help him and stop it, he ended up absorbing all of Knuckles' chaos powers. As soon as he woke up◊, Finitevus' entire personality had been completely changed and instead of the benevolent scientist we see before we instead have an omnicidal asshole who hates the entire world and want to condemn it to death. This really drastic change in personality that was right after he absorbed this large amount of chaos energy, does not go unnoticed by the characters, with it literally being suggested in the image I just linked, that his absorbing of the chaos energy transformed him basically into a dark reflection of Knuckles who instead of being a protector is a destroyer.

Like all of this with just how drastic and sudden his extreme change from a normal scientist trying to help out to an omnicidal destroyer that revels in trying to ruin the entire world, that is giving me very huge concerns over his agency.

I have tried to look at past discussions to see if I could possibly find an explanation for why this isn't disqualifying. I have looked hard though I haven't been able to find anything, no mentions of this backstory at all, no possible discussion on agency issues, and I couldn't find an EP either.

Maybe there is potentially something I am missing that can explain why this isn't disqualifying for him, but I have honestly been looking and been completely unable to find anything.

I am not going to outright say cut yet but I would really like to see some actual discussion on this backstory.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 20th 2022 at 3:42:23 AM

How does this work?

• "Bodies": Mark Bruner is a sexual sadist responsible for the rapes of over 17 teenage girls. Murdering the girls after, Bruner would keep the bodies in an unknown location so he could admire their bodies as they decayed. After being arrested, Bruner refuses to tell the parents of his victims where their bodies were, purely so they couldn't get closure; however, he shows his lawyer Tim Schwimmer the bodies, which forces him to keep it secret due to attorney-client privilege and leads to Schwimmer being arrested as an accomplice. Unnerving even Briscoe, Green, and McCoy, Bruner stands out as one of the worst within the original series.

Works for me.

As for the Doctor...that does seem concerning at best.

Works STAR!

I think Finitevus was added in the Pre-EP days so I can't see if there was any counterarguments then.

Guys please feedback on the rewrite batch. I'll be able to get potholing after.

To clarify. Mccoy offered to swap out the death penalty for just 25 years if he told him where the bodies where. Bruner rejected it out of spite.

Edit,: Rewrites look good.

Edited by miraculous on Dec 20th 2022 at 12:42:33 PM

Yeah that is the main reason I am bringing it up now. I was completely unable to find any explanation for why this isn't agency compromising and it really should be addressed at the very least if it somehow isn't.

Cut him unless someone gives a good explanation for why that is not disqualifying.

Hmm for Finitevus he seems like a cut unless someone can provide a counterargument about his agency post accident.

Cut Fin unless someone who has read the comics provides a counterpoint since that sounds really mitigating.

Yes to rewrites

Cur echidna guy for now

Found this entry to be written kinda weirdly, with explanation at the start about how all other villains in the series have redeeming qualities but these don't, i decided to try to rewrite this entry:

Original:

Golden Sun: Dark Dawn: Though Golden Sun has a villainous roster comprised by mostly villains with redeeming qualities, this cannot be said for Dark Dawn's Blados and Chalis. Agents of the military country Tuaparang, Blados starts by kidnapping a child and isolating him from his master, while Chalis secretly manipulates Kaocho's king from behind the scenes. The two partake in a scheme to activate the Grave Eclipse, shrouding most of the continent in darkness and unleashing dark beasts on the innocent populace, leading to the death of thousands. Once at the Apollo Lens, Blados and Chalis waste no time in betraying the other Big Bad, Alex, and seizing the Apollo Lens for themselves. They proceed to turn Volechek (the brother of playable character Sveta) into a horrific beast and attempt to use him to fire the Apollo Lens on their own allies, killing Volechek in the process. Both are nasty in their own right, with Blados doing it for fun, and Chalis seeking more personal motives, up to betraying her own partner. Cunning, manipulative, and seeing the deaths of thousands as a mere side-effect of the plan, Blados and Chalis are two of the worst villains Golden Sun has.

Rewrite:

Golden Sun: Dark Dawn: Blados and Chalis are the agents of the military country Tuaparang, who partake in a scheme to activate the Grave Eclipse, shrouding most of the continent in darkness and unleashing dark beasts on the innocent populace, leading to the death of thousands. Betraying Alex to seize the Apollo Lens for themselves, they proceed to turn Volechek, the brother of playable character Sveta, into a horrific beast and attempt to use him to fire the Apollo Lens on their own allies, killing Volechek in the process. Cunning, manipulative, and seeing the deaths of thousands as a mere side-effect of the plan, Blados and Chalis are the most vile villains Golden Sun has.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Dec 20th 2022 at 11:59:30 PM

I'm gonna do a slight rewrite for one of my examples to make it flow better and add a slight more context.

Current

• Royal Bastards, by Andrew Shvarts: Razz Gaul, from the first novel, is a vicious brute with a murderous hatred of his brother Zell. After Zell spared his life in a duel to the death, Razz repaid him by murdering Zell's first love and leaving Zell to cover it up. Razz would later hunt his brother and friends down for Lord Kent, butchering a random farmhouse on the way for fun. Razz would later try to force himself on Princess Lyrianna.

New

• Royal Bastards, by Andrew Shavrts: First Novel: Razz Gaul is vicious brute with a murderous hatred of his brother Zell. After Zell spared his life in a duel to the death, Razz repaid him by murdering Zell's first love and leaving him to cover it up to avoid starting a war. Razz would later hunt his brother and his friends for Lord Kent, butchering everyone at a random farmhouse on the way for fun. Razz later tries to force himself onto Princess Lyrianna.

Cut Finitevus.

And while we're on the subject of disqualifying factors that should have been discussed, I still have reservations about this version of Cinder keeping:

• CRME: Cinder Fall remorselessly murders her sister, claiming it was a Mercy Kill, and admits she has killed multiple innocents in the past. Abusing and manipulating Emerald into being loyal to her, when the mother of her other follower, Mercury, threatens her son to leave Cinder or be killed, Cinder strangles his mother to death, not out of care for Mercury but to keep a warrior. When Mercury calls Cinder out for becoming the same abusive monster as her own mother, Cinder has Emerald assail him with projections of his abusive parents to overwhelm him into obedience. Willing to engage in terrorist activities to keep her followers focused on her and threatening to throw Emerald to the street for questioning her, Cinder is a narcissistic psychopath.

While she is every bit as vicious as her canon counterpart with no good qualities to her, I don't think she got over the Freudian Excuse that was depicted in My Name Is Cinder (and her mother BTW is a CM in her own right). In chapter 5 of CRME, when she sees Mercury interacting with his own Abusive Mom, she has flashbacks to her terrible childhood and the narration even states that Mercury's mom "rubbed her the wrong way". And the chapter makes it very clear that Mercury's mom reminds Cinder of her own abusive mother.

And if that ain't enough of a red flag, here is this sentence from that same chapter:

'Every word that came out of the woman's mouth made Cinder's blood boil. Her face became a hard scowl. "You don't deserve to be his mother."'

So, while she did kill Mercury's mom, it was less to secure him as a minion (though it was certainly a bonus) but because she is legitimately disgusted by her. Also, I found his on her character page:

• Berserk Button: Abusive mothers. She can barely stay under control when she talks to Melanie. The final straw is when Mel slaps her. It makes Cinder beat her up and strangle her.

Thoughts?

Cut the Der chancellor and Dr. Fin

@ mir, to be fair IDW Gozer spends most of his comic appearances either trying to regain his form, re-enter Earth, or regain his power in order to destroy the world, he is putting himself in a position to do something heinous, but he cannot destroy the world until he gets back his power or finds a way to come back to Earth.

Edited by Overlord on Dec 20th 2022 at 1:26:20 AM

That thing for fanfic Cinder, killing Merc's mom out of disgust seems like a standard at least, so that alone seems like a cut.

Cut Finitevus and cinder

Leaning for a cut for Cinder and Fin.

Everything I have read on her makes her sound like a hypocrite with Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse....But it still sounds like she is affected by her past in an extreme way. Guess I can lean cut there.

@Agent

It doesn't quite sound like a standard. Going by the sheet Merc calls out that she is a lot like her own mom. But it still sounds like her past has too much of an affect on her.

Edited by Snoketrope on Dec 20th 2022 at 3:29:51 AM

Cut Douglas, Finitevus and Cinder.

ACW: Sorry for not replying earlier. Honestly I'm leaning towards taking it off. The only link is one one-sided crossover to a show that is only partially connected to the world. Now if stronger links emerge we might have to move it back. But at the moment its pretty tentative. So yeah, move the FBI stuff back to the main page.

Cut the Doctor and Cinder. I'm good for the Golden Sun duo rewrite too unless OP wants to flesh it out.

Yes to golden sun and royal bastards rewrite

Cut fanfic Cinder

Something I thought to ask about, apperently in Legends continuity Moff Tarkin had a son who was killed by the Emperor in order to make his father batter tool, to the point that letter commited genocide against the species that was blamed for his death (Tarkin’s son actually defected). Can’t remember if this was mentioned.

It was but I think it fell under Depending on the Writer or something like that.

I think this was mentioned before and was chalked up to Depending on the Writer.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 20th 2022 at 3:40:46 AM

We do not factor in redeeming features from non-canon works into canon works.