Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think the second one was supposed to be the official updated version, but for some reason, the changes never carried over to the sandbox and then the Film Lit page. My thinking is stick with that one and again, either add the GSV pothole or don't. Whichever version we stick with, "that" in the first line should be replaced with "who".
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Is GSV accurate?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
He kind of made Lecter what he is by not just murdering and eating his sister, but by feeding some of her to Lecter too, so I suppose he is then.
Which version is the updated one by the way? The first or the second? The third clearly is just the second with the added pothole.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 24th 2023 at 10:58:46 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Let's go with this:
- Hannibal Rising: Vladis Grutas is a vicious war criminal who escaped justice in World War II. A member of the collaborating Lithuanian militias, Grutas led the sack of a small town and personally executed Jewish prisoners, executing one Rabbi by sawing his head off. During the winter, Grutas and his men took refuge in a small building with a young Hannibal Lecter and his baby sister Mischa inside. Grutas, to stave off hunger, decapitated Mischa with an axe and had her cooked and fed to the others. In the present, Grutas is a mob boss who uses murder and prostitution to further profits. When he and Hannibal fight, Grutas takes pleasure in mocking Hannibal how he also fed him his own sister in the winter years ago.
Is there a better trope than GSV for his name?
Edited by ACW on Mar 24th 2023 at 3:28:02 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I guess A Nazi by Any Other Name or Those Wacky Nazis? (Shrug.)
The former’s for fantasy versions of Nazis, and the latter’s for stereotypes of Nazis, so neither work.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Mar 24th 2023 at 3:07:24 PM
The Draftsman of Doom
Former Regime Personnel is my suggestion.
Feels good, don't it?
Buzz
Someone added this to Psych, and while I considered this guy, I'm not sure if he is a good example.
- In "Let's Get Hairy", the killer turns out to be Psycho Psychologist Dr. Ken Tucker. He had an affair with one of his patients, and when she threatened to tell his wife about it, he plotted to kill her and frame one of his other patients for it, while tampering with the second patient's medication so he would believe that he had caused her death. He also killed two hunters that he chanced across simply to make the second patient seem more dangerous.
The contents of the entry are accurate, but Ken Tucker is also treated as a standard bad guy, who fails to cross the baseline. Even ignoring Mr. Yin and Allison Cowley, we have other villains who are bad enough and are taken deadly seriously, like the guy who tried to infect Santa Barbara with a deadly virus (but he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist), and the guy who shot Henry (ok, I don't remember if he passes the baseline, but Shawn takes this case more seriously because It's Personal).
Edited by Paperfly on Mar 24th 2023 at 12:25:27 PM
Image Pickin' Backlog
Sounds good. Yeah, he's a straightforward Nazi even if not German, but not a stereotype either. Certainly not a fantasy one—so yeah, I had the feeling that one was wrong pretty quickly myself.
His relationship with his wife doesn't sound redeeming, but if he's not heinous enough, then yeah he's probably not worth keeping in that case.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Delightful.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 24th 2023 at 12:32:43 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Former Regime Personnel works for me.
As for Tucker...seems like a dick, but yeah, may not even pass baseline.
Edited by ACW on Mar 24th 2023 at 3:27:27 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Dimension Spawn
Hey guys, I was wondering. I noticed that the Black Cross Fuhrer was listed in Super Sentai. While I have no problem with this choice (because he IS one), I was wondering why his actions in Gokaiger Goseiger Super Sentai 199 Hero Great Battle were not mentioned. After all, the movie is considered canon to the franchise.
I'm right, your argument is null and void.
What does he do in the movie? If it's significant you can propose a rewrite to add whatever he did to his entry
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
The Dimension Spawn
I've never written an entry before, but for the cliff notes:
- allowing the Zangyack Empire to conquer Earth in exchange for killing off the Super Sentai
- resurrecting Brajira, Dagon, and Yogoshimacritein who cause panic in Japan
- stealing the ranger keys so he could use them as ranger army under his control
- using said rangers in an attempt to kill the Gokaigers and Goseigers, and
- upon first defeat, growing into a giant monstrosity to wreak havoc on Tokyo and bringing back the previous villains yet again.
We typically treat each individual season of Super Sentai as its own continuity given how wonky and inconsistent Toei is on the matter and certain seasons having backstories that contradict each other. The exception is special cases where the crossover is expressly canon to the main seasons represented, which thus far only applies to Iron Claw for this trope. Gokaiger is an odd case since every other season is canon to it, but not the other way around. It's far simpler to just take every season at its own thing and ignore the crossovers whenever possible.
Though...that last point does make me wonder. We have Basco up from Gokaiger, but then there's that issue where the entire franchise is expressly canon to Gokaiger. And not just in passing; there's at least one role reprisal from all 34 previous seasons, and it's made absolutely explicit that the events of said seasons all happened. Basco is a chronic backstabber who also at one point tries to blow up a school, which is nasty, but next to the entire franchise? I don't think anyone can make it. The real problem is Dekaranger, where planetary destruction, genocide, and triple digit body counts are the norm for fully independent villains. If Basco were in any other season he'd easily pass, but Gokaiger being canon to everything is such a fundamental part of the season and the team's character development that I'm not confident in his status here.
Can confirm. Ken Tucker is nowhere close to heinous enough. He's got two murders, and an attempted third to his name.
...just checking, Fulci-whatever his name, he's not approved right?
Edited by RobertTYL on Mar 24th 2023 at 11:20:02 PM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Yeah that would be correct. Burn that entry and leave a link to the thread. Maybe PM them with a thread link incase they wanna propose the character?
Keep Frank, Lansky and Geil
Cut Gant
Gonna wait for further discussion on Basco
Alrighty, something I'd like to bring up for consideration, having spoken with OP:
- Scream 2 (Kevin Williamson's original script): Derek and Hallie are a pair of young psychopaths seeking to imitate—and exceed—the original Woodsboro killings to achieve Fame Through Infamy. Backed by the vengeful Mrs. Loomis and sharing the mantle of Ghostface, Derek and Hallie meticulously infiltrate Sidney Prescott's social circle, becoming her new boyfriend and roommate, respectively. Filming their own copycat murders, they murder a couple at the sneak preview of Stab and push another college student into a glass door to the deck below, mutilating her chest and leaving her body hanging from a tree. Stepping up their game and killing Randy Meeks, they proceed to murder two police officers that were in their way and even Hallie's own innocent boyfriend, Mickey, before sadistically attaching the corpse of one of Sidney's friends, Joel, to a wall for a cheap laugh. Planning on finishing their massacre with the triple murder of Sidney, Gale and Cotton, Derek and Hallie wanted nothing more than to send a message to the happy endings of Hollywood and prove their own nihilistic philosophy of punishing innocents to inherit the Earth as murderers.
EP here. I'm not sure these two are bad enough. I know it's an early draft for the second film so I'm only going to compare them against Billy and Stu but I think they come up a bit short. We've got an attempted bodycount of 11, not really distinguishable from the preceding duo's 10 and that was bolstered by Maureen's rape and torture.
Richie and Amber were the comparison Crow brought up and I'm inclined to agree: they're hatable and in a vacuum they'd pass slasher baseline but nasty stabbing deaths are the norm here, as are petty, nonsense motivations and personally I can't see them lining up when Billy and Stu pull such a pronounced, horrific flourish in addition to their serial killing business.
Thoughts?
Goku Black
Anyway cut the above duo. Do not think that psych guy is heinous enough.
I honestly have no clue on Basco. He would be fine normally but Gokaiger treating all those seasons as canon is an issue. Like thats 30 years worth of psychos wiping out countless worlds or tryng to cause hell on earth or a bunch of other shtick.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Gonna think on Derek and Hallie. I didn't consider that they would not have to compare now to the added uniqueness of Billy and Stu committing the rape—specifically the latter who does count in both film and script. I don't the Richie and Amber comparison is necessary though since they definitely didn't exist at the time that this script was written.
The Amber and Richie comparison, as stated future, was one of similarity, not competition. I made it quite clear my concerns are how they compare to Billy and Stu and reviewing the EP I note Mrs. Loomis endorsed the attack on Maureen, so they're the only killers of the five in the "duology" not involved in the rape-torture.
Lies and Violence!
Always been iffy on those two, fine with a cut.
For Basco, I'm not familiar with Super Sentai, but would we still treat those other seasons as broad strokes? From what little I know, a lot of those shows blatantly contradict each other.
Not the Eye
Cut scream script duo.
Don’t know about Basco.
Prefer the First.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."